ROSS DOUBLE CROSSOVER

 

There is a 'regular' double crossover comprised of four of the 'regular' type Ross switches.  The eleven degree angle type.  It is not a number 4.  They also make a number 8 and it is loooong.  Go on their website and click on products.  There are PDFs of all the switch types.  The single crossover is a number 4.

Sam, I'm really not sure, I'm pretty much a novice at this. I repair engines and model build, when it comes to track it's kinda new to me. LOL 

 

All the other guys in my thread are much more knowledgeable than me, we need them to chime in

 

Thanks

Alex

This brings back memories!...

 

Before I had a layout worked out for the basement, I attended a show and saw RCS's L-O-N-G Double X-over....I believe the switches are #8 (stock #280M). Anyhow, I decided right there and then that THIS would be the genesis component of my layout design.

 

And so, having set up RR-Track on the computer and defined the basement space/obstacles, I selected this piece of track-art from the RR-Track library, placed it in the spot I had imagined would connect upper and lower levels, and began extending the track tentacles from the four legs of the crossover.

 

And so it went...beautifully.  ALL the switches are RCS.  All of the pre-formed curves, straights, and flex are Gargraves.  Nary an operational problem...with one exception: A DZ-1000 motor, which Dennis @ Z-Stuff helped me solve through a quick email exchange.

 

BTW, the reason I used Gargraves for everything EXCEPT the switches was for consistency of appearance.  My layout plan required several pieces of flex track, which of necessity have no spike/staples.  I decided to keep this staple-free appearance as uniform as possible.  But by having staples (spikes) on all of the RCS switches, this tends to 'celebrate' the complexity and workmanship of these exceptional pieces of trackage. 

 

That they are 100% made in the good ol' U.S. of A. is the proverbial cherry on the sundae, IMHO, of course!

 

OTOH, this MoPower fettish-thing????.....

 

 

KD (a.k.a., Lucas Gudinov)

UPDATE.  If you downloaded the files in my previous post, they had an error so please delete them.  It was an older file with the green wire attached to the wrong rail.  I've updated that post with the correct files.

 

Thx guys. I checked their site, great selection. Some of the PDF files came back with a 404 error, not sure if it is my internet, my silly Apple or the site...no big deal.

Has anyone wired this to Dcs?  I have but I am not sure how to get power to the center? In the instructions it said the supplied switch controller would supply power when the relay was opened. Since the dcs relay opens and closes am I correct in assume that the center rails wouldn't have power?

Ron

 

I do not have the piece in question to experiment with,however here in an alternative relay solution for someone who had reported problems. From reading your profile I see you are an EE, so see what you think. More relays could be added to prevent accidental throwing them in the wrong direction when the train is approaching the diamond and even automating them for automatic routing. Inside the crossover itself,I see no way to make an outside insulated rail,that seems to be the problem.

 

 

LINK

 

Dale H

Dale,

 

I glanced at your drawings when they were posted earlier this month, but now I will take a closer look at them. I'm still not convinced there is an issue here, but I've been wrong before.

 

I hope this discussion doesn't deter Alex from using this switch; its a great product by a great company.

Alex,

 

Did your purchase it pre wired and non derailing?

 

K

Ron, no worries I will be using all Ross switches on my layout. I appreciate yours and  everyone's help and input, as I'm sort as a novice with this. Please keep posting as I am learning a lot.

 

Kevin, it's pre wired and I think I have to set up the non derailing feature

I'm still in the learning process

 

Thanks again to all,

Alex

Reason I asked is because, I believe they will wire it up for you so it becomes a "plug-n-play" - know it's not that simple but the more you get Ross to do the easier it becomes for you to trouble shoot.

 

Can't wait to see the new layout.

 

K

Again - you can't wire this switch for non derailing.

I've had one of these for many years.  Mine came without the contact plate at the crossing and I installed one, eliminating the stalling issue.  As to wiring the plant, just remember that there are only two possible options for trains:  either the switch is set straight or set for diverging.  No other option.  This makes it easy to wire and control.  Only two positions controls all four switches.

 

Now, when you get into a double slip switch, that's a different story.  There are four possible settings for the two switch motors on a Ross switch.  I have a brief diagram on my control panel to be able to choose the correct combination.

 

Paul Fischer

Looking at the switch,I don't think you can not make it anti derailing because there is no room in the center for making insulated grounding rails. 

 

 

 

However,depending on the layout configuration and specifics, this could maybe be automated fairly easily with some relays so that turnouts could be thrown with a toggle switch so that all 4 could be left inward or left straight. Insulated rails on the approach could prevent shorts in the diamond and anti collision in conventional if there are 2 trains running. If there are 2 throttle settings you might have to solve the roller jumping issue. Might have to use a modern type transformer where taps do not back flow into each other.

 

Dale H

You don't need to make this switch plant "non derailing".  If you set up the controls correctly, all four switches operate at the same time.   So, if you choose the straight route option, all four switches are already correct.  And if you choose the divergent route option, all four switches are already set for turn.  All switches are already in alignment, automatically.

 

Paul Fischer

Paul

 

The problem is you have to orient the diamond. If the train goes in the wrong direction there is a short created by the pickup rollers. Look at the diagram above, either the set of 1s or the set of 2s have to be hot but not both at the same time. Which ones are hot depends on which route is taken when it enters the crossover (the A route or B route). With the DZ1008 relay all 4 switches can not be thrown at the same time inward,one pair would have to be left straight. External relays on the approach could power the 1s or 2s appropriately.

 

Dale H

Hmmm...  That probably makes sense.  So, you set up all four switches on one controller.  All four are either straight or divergent.  Hmmm... I guess that does make sense.  Thank you for that.  That would probably solve my dilemma I had with this switch.  Alex, take note. 

I guess it depends on which crossover you have, I believe the earlier ones didn't have t a metal diamond and we had to borrow outside rail and make them "hot" to prevent stalling.   I'm not sure  the borrowed rails  are  required with the newer version with the metal diamond. If you have a newer version I believe there's a hook up underneath the diamond part that would be  hard to get hooked up after installing the works on the layout..... Yeah I know , been there.

Deleted - they posted my post

I'm still having trouble understanding the problem if you wire the switch IAW Ross' diagram.  It could be I'm just not grasping the concept (highly likely), or maybe the DZ-2500s work a little differently than the DZ-1000s.  I would think as far as the gray and white wires off the DZ-1008 relay are concerned, they operate the same with either machine.  Maybe the green wire connected to the DZ-2500 does not work the same as on the DZ-1000?  Maybe my connections for a command layout don't work for a conventional control layout?  As Gregg said, having the metal diamond makes a difference if you have been discussing an older switch.

 

Here is a picture of the diamond of the switch Alex and I have.  You can see (barely) the short metal rails "1" and "2" that are in the diagram that Dale posted.

 

Here is a closer view of these short rails.

 

The 1s are connected together and the 2s are connected together.

 

My original thought was to not bother powering these rails and do what Paul said, set up the switch where both sets of switches are either straight or crossover.  Since I have the switch with the metal diamond, this seamed logical.  The problem is I did a quick check of the gap with 4 engines I had readily available, and two of these might stall including my MTH Q2.  I assume I have others that will also stall due to the gap spacing.

 

So, back to powering these rails.  Here is Ross' advanced wiring diagram for the DZ-2500s.

 

 

Here is my interpretation of the Ross diagram. I did this so I can visually see where the wires went.

 

This is how I understand how it works.  Since this is a command control layout, the diamond is always hot via a connection to a center rail of the mainline (should not make any difference if conventional-both main lines need to be at the same voltage to cross).  The master switch drives the DZ-1008 relay which sends power, as appropriate, to either rails 1 or 2 via the gray and white (blue dotted line) wires.  When the master is set to straight, the white wire is hot; when curved the gray wire is hot.  So the master must be set to straight for a train to travel the crossover between switches #3 and #4.

 

This is accomplished automatically by the green wire connection between the master and the curved lead rails of switches #3 and #4.  When a train enters the 3-4 crossover from either direction, it will reset the master to straight as soon as it goes over the lead rails, preventing a short.

 

If everything works as it should, there should be no accidental shorts anywhere on the switch.  If this is not correct, please let me know before I get too far along on wiring the section of layout with this switch.

do I understand this correctly?

 

basically you want a fail safe so if you forget to reset switches 1 and 2 to straight and then set switches 3 and 4 to diverging the wheels will activate the main switch to kill power to rails 1-1.

 

am I correct in what you want to accomplish?

 

 

This thing is tricky... however  CAPPilot has done a nice job posting the problem.

 

It's the lead wires that throw switches... master and number 1  back straight  preventing the dead short on the  borrowed outside rails. (I think)

 

 Next Up..... Double slip wiring ....

 

If route "A" is chosen,the 1 rails should be hot.

If route B is chosen,the 2 rails should be hot.

 

The DZ1008s should power the proper rails depending on the selected route,but all 4 switches can not be turned inward at at the same time with this method. If all 4 were selected at once,both 1 and 2 rails sets are powered, there is no way to distinguish route A from route B. At least this is my understanding. So with that method,in my understanding one pair would have to be straight and one inward,either the A route or the B route selected but not both.

 

In the post I linked earlier,they were burning out the DZ1008 relays for some reason. Perhaps they did not switch fast enough so I purposed using external relays. I don't know the current carrying capacity of the DZ1008 relays,perhaps they are inadequate for the job of carrying track power. It seems if they are shorted the contacts cook. I use relays with 10 or 15 amp contacts.I even can double them up for 20 and 30 amp. I fixed coin op stuff for a living once,it was a rare occurrence to replace relays except for a few exceptions in applications where they were continually powered 24/7 on location. Even those relays lasted many years.

 

I automate my Ross switches with my own relays on a passing siding.I purchased them (tinplate models) from Steve about 3 years ago at York. I hesitate to automate turnouts because of the many problems I had with other switches. He then assured me they would work and take continuous power on the machines and I could switch them with my relays. As he promised,they work flawlessly without derailments except for cars with slide shoes. I am very happy with the switches.

 

My relay system is simple and controls the trains and the switches and orients them properly. I  park 2 trains each on a passing siding which run opposite directions alternately. The turnouts are thrown in pairs,in tandem according to position of the trains as needed with relay contacts,no anti derail circuit is needed. With the DZ 1008 relays,you are counting on them alone to prevent the short. If all 4 switches are inward,I do not see how the master switch can detect which train route is selected since there is no positioning logic,at least none I see. The train can take the same route many times. Without block detection I do not see how it could work automatically if all 4 were thrown at once. I can see it working with 2 straight and 2 inward,with the user routing the trains. I can not comment further since I do not use the DZ1008 relays.  I do read of people have problems for whatever reason when they use them.

 

Dale H

StPaul,

 

That is correct on your fail safe analogy.  Additionally, when switches 1 and 2 are set to straight, not only is powered killed to rails 1-1 but power is turned on rails 2-2 to eliminate the gap for the switches 3-4 crossover (route B).

Dale,

 

First off I like your approach for a couple of reasons, but mostly because I agree with you that the DZ-1008 relay is not very robust.  However, I have a box full of these relays so I might as well use them.

 

Both the DZ-1000 and DZ-2500 have a non-derailing capability using the green and yellow wires off the switch machine.  This system uses an isolated outside rail to complete the circuit to energize the switch.  I am using a variation of this capability to activate the Master (#1) switch to straight when route B has a train going through it.  The isolated rails I'm using are the curved lead rails of switches 3 and 4 per Ross' diagram.

 

 

Great info guys, I'm learning a lot from all of you

 

Thanks very much,

Alex

I'm going to be a party pooper.  If a  engine has traction tires (diesel) will the lead rails of switches 3 &4 be long enough to activate the relay?  

For those who asked (you will probably be sorry you did) about push button operation I shall post a circuit. No way to test this but it works in theory I think. The 4 turnouts are all wired together in parallel to throw all straight or all inward. I am assuming 2 or more trains will run on the loops. If there is only one train,much less is needed. First, insulated rails need to be made on the 4 approaches to the turnout. One on the outside and one in the center for a power block.  This will provide positioning logic and collision avoidance and assumes the train is of sufficient length to span the turn out and is not a short trolley or something. The blocks are the maximum length or more needed to stop the train. Click on any diagram to enlarge

 

 

 

Relays are used to avoid collisions and prevent the turnouts from switching when the train is on or near the crossover. For relay power any starter set transformer will do set at 18 volts. When wired in series to a bridge rectifier and 1000 uf 35 volt capacitor, it provides 24 VDC voltage power for 24 VDC relays. It can be used not just for this but for all relays on the layout used for block detection or other purposes. The minus of the bridge rectifier shares a common with the U of the track transformer. Using the insulated rail method,any train car or engine with metal wheels will activate the relay via the outside insulated rail method connecting the DC- circuit to the coil. Here is the schematic

 

 

 

Relay 1 is SPDT,24VDC coil. The purpose of relay one is to prevent the turnouts from being switched if the crossover is occupied. If it is occupied the push buttons will not work,disconnected by the C-NC contact set.

 

Relay 2 is a 3PDT twin coil latch relay 24VDC coils. It can be made from 3, SPDT ones with the coils wired in parallel. Only one coil is shown for simplicity.

 

The first set of contacts switch the turnouts ,wired all 4 in tandem to straight of inward (curved).

 

The optional second set of contacts powers LEDs to indicate turnout position.

 

 The third set of contacts prevent relays 3 and 4 from energizing if the route is set straight.

 

Relays 3 and 4 are DPDT 24VDC coils. Relay coils 3 and 4 insulated rails are wired through the opposing relays first C-NC contact set. This keeps both relays from being energized at once. Whichever train gets there first will energize the coil and prevent the second relay coil from energizing.

 

The second set of contacts on each relay cuts power to the center rail of the opposing approach and energizes the appropriate diamond rails,1,1 or 2,2.

 

In conventional,when the crossovers are switched inward, the train which gets to the crossover first will proceed through the crossover. If the second one arrives (locked in forward) it will stop,then proceed after the crossover is cleared.

 

In command the train arriving first will proceed through the crossover. If a second train is allowed to approach too close on the opposing rail, power will be cut off. When power is restored when the first train clears,  command will have to be reestablished and one issued for the train to proceed. This is a safety feature to avoid collisions.

 

220 uf 35 volt capacitors are placed across relay 1,3 and 4. These are anti chatter. A 10 ohm half watt resistor in series to the capacitor slows inrush current a little to prevent arcing of train wheels completing the coil circuit.

 

The diodes across the relay coils are anti spike.

 

The diodes in series from the insulated rails keep the outside insulated rails electrically separated. This allows individual outside rails to still be be circuited singly for other purposes. Diodes can be 1n4001 or similar.

 

I think I drew this right but could have made a mistake,check it out.

 

Dale H

 

 

We have one of each and are just getting to wiring them up.  I'm wondering if anyone knows more about the #235.  Where I clearly see the 1 and 2 rails on the smaller #175, I don't see any separation in the rails around the diamond on the larger #235.

The attached close-ups are the #235 double crossover.

 

I'm not 100% sure but I think the wiring diagram it came with was the same as the smaller crossover.  Either that or I lost it.

 

Can I just skip wiring the 1 and 2 rails on the large one?  All the black rails around the diamond look like one solid piece.

 

 

FYI:

The measurements are:

 

#175 = 31.84" 

#235 = 49.25"  #8 switches

If you skip wiring and 1 and 2 rails.  I think it would be OK if your roller spacing on all the locos would accommodate it. It is a fairly long span.  Again,I do not have one to experiment with,but I think the problem was that a train going through the wrong way would be shorted by the rollers.

 

Dale H

That's not a problem but a testament to how smart Steve is! 

Gentlemen, now you know why Ross products are so incredibly well engineered. It's because Steve was influenced by Mopar. Try all you want you won't be able to covert Steve to Ford or Chevy.