Santa Fe fans...Lionel Legacy F Units or MTH Premier F Units?

Well, unless something has changed, I think I'd probably prefer the Legacy sounds over the MTH PS/2 sounds.  I haven't seen either of these specific models, so I can't comment on appearance issues.

Steve,

 

Have you considered the AtlasO F3? This will be the most prototypical F3 available and has most of the details you're looking for. The drawbacks are that they are TMCC and use Railsounds 4.

  (If those are really drawbacks at all?)

If sound and smooth operation are important, then the Atlas would be a big step down.  The TMCC and RS4 will not sound anything like the Legacy sounds, and the difference in operation between Legacy and TMCC are pretty huge.

We've found that the tether between MTH units can be a hassle if you have to move the units around between the layout and storage by hand. I personally like PS2 and its many features and have only recently acquired a Legacy system so can't give a fair opinion on it yet. Mike's diesel sounds have always been good but Legacy sound has few detractors!

I have a Atlas F3 and it's terrific - great sound, smoke, and operation. Very nicely detailed too.

 

Hi guys,

 

Thanks so much for your input.  I had never even given Atlas a thought until now. 

 

Now, do any of these A units have fixed pilots?  If so, what is the recommended curves to run them on?

 

Steve

Now, do any of these A units have fixed pilots?

 

The Atlas F comes with an extra pilot for a fixed pilot.  The Santa Fe F3 is very hard to find.

 

For overall prototype fidelity, the pre Legacy Santa Fe F units are better than the Legacy version.  I was in the midst of modifying this when I took the picture, it doesn't come with fixed pilots and Kadee couplers.  But look at the side and compare it with the prototype.  It's spot on-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is too many variations of MTH units, but one or two of the last passenger units were prototypically accurate.

Steve;

 

A detail problem with the Atlas ATSF units is that they don't have a Mars light.  The 16 to 21 class came without Mars lights but were soon modified.  So, in that sense, the Atlas model is good for the 1946 1947 era.

Allan 

Lionel Legacy F3s.  This is 1 powered A, 2 powered B, and a dummy A.

 

I like 'em all!

I will defer to the Santa Fe experts but its my understanding the Lionel Odyssey engines have all wheels driven and sit lower on the trucks then the Legacy engines do. Correct me if I am wrong. The downside of the Odyssey engines is they couple far apart (can be corrected).

RS4 with correct sound effect and volume can rival Legacy but with fewer sound sets but not on the Lionel SF F3s Odyssey engines unfortunately. Sound on these is pretty mediocre.

 

Pete

So many F Units......so many questions.  Marker, is the engine you posted a Lionel engine?  If so, then how difficult was it to install the fixed pilot and the Kadee coupler. 

 

The TMCC (pre-Legacy) engines are physically different from the Legacy engines?  Would a novice such as myself be able to discern the difference(s)?

 

Despite the number of F units that have been produced there is not one set that has everything I want.  I am hoping Lionel will produce a Legacy ABBA set each of which have speakers and smoke units.  While I am wishing I want a fixed pilot with scale coupler on the lead engine, close coupling between the units, and the cool stainless steel treatment that MTH did on one of their sets a couple years ago (2010?).  I suppose I am waiting for a Vision Line F3 set.  Maybe some day. 

Someone should listen to your 'dream F3' description Kevin...

That would be a heck of a nice set!

That's because the only Legacy Santa Fe Fs Lionel has made so far are the "Postwar Scale" series version, meaning they have scale-like features but Postwar-type decoration. So they have no MARS light, among other things. The paint scheme also mimics the Postwar version, so, for example, the front yellow stripe doesn't go over the nose back to the cab windows per prototype ( I read somewhere that paint processes weren't far enough advanced in the Postwar era to do the stripe over the curved nose cost-effectively for these toy trains).

 

I'm waiting for them to do their regular scale version with Legacy, which should be coming before too much longer, I'd think. 

MartyE---cool video

I love the horn---awesome

 

Joe S  

Breezinup,

Is 6-14588 TMCC Santa Fe F3 ABA #19 (2005) the regular scale version that you mentioned in your post?  And that is not the same set as the engines that Marty posted?  As far as I could tell, it looks like that was the last time Lionel released the regular scale version.  Is that correct?

 

thanks

Lionel actually did three sets of scale Santa Fe Warbonnet F-3s, first #16, then #18, and finally #19, which you mention. Subsequently they also did a #17, but that was a conventional version, not TMCC. They also did a scale set of Warbonnet F-7s which were cataloged in 2006 (No. 24589), which look very similar to the F-3s, of course. Those were the last scale Warbonnet F units Lionel has done.

 

Marty's engines are not the same - they are the Postwar Scale version I mentioned.

breezinup covered it all and regarding his comment earlier.  I agree, Lionel just hasn't come up with a Legacy Scale prototypical Santa Fe F unit yet.  I would guess they will some day.  BTW my #17 above is Legacy powered.  (Because of discount blow outs, my cost was much less than buying a set of Lionel Legacy A-B-B-A F units's.)

 

One thing of note was that F7's had RS5.  The set with all available extras adds up to an A-B-B-B-A.

 

Principal RailRookie asked if it was easy to fix the pilot and make the Kadee mods.  The answer is no.  The body on that engine above has also been lowered because the #17 and the F7's had a reputation of having too much of a gap between the body and the trucks.  Lionel recovered most of the gap when they moved to Legacy.  As Norton pointed out the #16, 18 and 19 had different drives and sat nicely.  Norton showed the way on those engines and they from my experience are the easiest to fix the pilot and mount Kadees, but still require some work.  Norton's thread covers some of the work involved.  https://ogrforum.com/d...ent/9173459985369369

 

Lastly, I agree that the Atlas units are great and are prototypically correct.  I wasn't trying to imply otherwise in my post with the pictures.

 

Steve,

 

I  have a set of both Atlas O and Lionel Legacy F3 locomotives. An Atlas O Erie and Lionel Santa Fe, although not in the Santa Fe Warbonnet color scheme.  Bot are very nice locomotives.  Here is a video of each.  Hope this helps you decide.

 

Joe

 

Atlas O

 

 

 

Lionel

 

Heres video (not the best) of my RS5 f7's from 2006. Sound is a close second to legacy with 8 rpm levels and random flange squeal. The biggest drawback is the non smoking B unit, which does however have a backup light and operating electrocoupler allowing you to drop the unpowered A if you choose.Directional marker lights and mars lights as well.

 

 

 

Hi Guys,

 

I would like to thank all who have contributed to my request for information on these models.  The videos are a great help!  The Lionel Legacy models are really nice.  However, it is surprising to hear that the pre-Legacy offerings are preferred by some. I'm going to have to do some more researching of all the various brands before deciding.  I have a pair of Lionel post war Santa Fe F units with the horizontal drive (boy, do they growl!  Love 'em!).  Now I just want to have a set of them with the newer details and sounds and smoke. And having the most prototypical appearance.  I do like the Atlas models as they can be configured with a fixed pilot (does anyone know what the minimum curve will be with this feature installed?).

 

Thanks again,

Steve

Lionel has some awesome diesel sounds in Legacy models now - my experience, limited to three PS3 locos, is that while better than PS2 the sound is still a bit less detailed and dynamic than MTH's (not that its not better than Atlas, etc.).  But while the Legacy models look good and run very well, MTH's Premier F3s are very detailed - and good runners themselves.  Overall it's a toss up.  If it were me I'd probably let the price I can get them for determine which I buy . . . recently I've found MTH's are more of a discount than Legacy locos, particularly for the most popular road names like Santa Fe, PRR, etc. 

I believe the RS5 F7's from 2006 are probably the best F7's on the market.

I have multiple sets of Lionel Legacy, MTH and Atlas O F3's.

All are excellent, however for sound fidelity Atlas O and Lionel are the best.

I know everyone would say the Legacy units have the best sound, well you have to hear the Atlas O units with their excellent enclosures. Since the Lionel F3's are only powered A with sound, the Atlas O powered A-A have two sound units and they are superb.

 

As far as looks go, Atlas O is the clear winner. IF, that is, you use scale couplers. The Atlas O three rail coupler looks like a battering ram from a 4th century BC Athenian naval vessel.

Lionel has dynamite units with greater fidelity to detail than MTH.

Some of the earlier MTH units have trucks that are too short. That has been corrected, but I am still not certain if their trucks are scale. I believe the Lionel trucks are. Atlas O are dead on.

 

Just to make it clear, if some prefer the pre-Legacy versions, it's only because Lionel hasn't made the scale version in Legacy yet, and some folks put scale realism ahead of having Legacy in a non-scale version. While the only Legacy Warbonnet so far isn't the scale one, it would be close enough for many.

 

If you go with pre-Legacy scale Lionel Fs, it's a tough call as to whether the F-7s or the No. 18 or 19 F-3s are better. The F-3s sit just a tad lower, but the F-7s have a little bit better sound system. Depends on what's important to an owner. Note that the No. 16s had a few problems due to being the first run made, but these bugs were corrected on the 18 and 19.

 

IMHO, you're splitting hairs trying to decide between the No. 18, 19, or the F-7s. You'd be happy with any of them, I'd think, as long as you find a set in the right condition at the right price. Probably throw the Atlas version in there as well, although there were far fewer of those made, and therefore they will be harder to find. Personally, I like the MARS light on the Lionel versions, but that may not seem like a big deal to others.

 

I have a set of Lionel NYC legacy F7's ABBA which includes powered A and a powered B. they are by far the best F units out there. The sounds are incredible. 

 

The AtlasO F units are a close second but legacy sound pushes the Lionel units over the top. 

 

The only sets I would buy now is Lionel F units w/ legacy.

 

Dave

I have only two Atlas Diesels in my roster but they are by far the best detailed. I like sound in all the my locomotives but keep the volume down so it's not a huge thing if one system is better than another. I find if your running more than one train at a time everything sounds better at a lower volume. This is the most resent Atlas engine I bought but not the last. Don

Let's not forget that MTH produced an F7 with simulated stainless steel side panels that is pretty impressive.  They produced the engine as factory-delivered without Mars light.  Santa Fe installed the Mars light soon after delivery (and used a bezel in the door that was the same diameter as the one on the nose).  If the lack of a Mars light is not a deal breaker for you, that stainless steel might make fiddling with the tethers less significant.

 

I have had a plan to wait for Atlas late 1948 F3's in A-B-B-A and 1952 F7's in A-B-B consists.  However, if Lionel brings forth a good rednose F7 Legacy unit before then, I will probably go for it.

Being neither a Santa Fe expert nor a huge diesel fan, I can't comment on rivet-counter level scale detailing. I did just make a decision between equivalent MTH (PS/3) and Lionel (Legacy) F units in Milwaukee Road, and one thing that hit me between the eyes was value for money. Lionel sells an AA set with one unit powered for about the same as MTH sells an ABA set with two units powered. Moving up to four units, two powered, in each line, and correcting for the larger discounts applied to Lionel's MSRP, I still came out with the MTH costing a couple of hundred dollars less for the 4-unit set than the Lionel equivalent. Adding to that, MTH has a more authentic version of Milwaukee Road orange than Lionel (although neither is correct). Legacy has some neat features, but the remote has the ergonomics of a brick and I really like the MTH speed readout in scale MPH. Bottom line, I ordered the MTH. I did have a third option, do nothing and just keep both of my K-Line sets, but I decided that selling one of the K-Line sets would defray enough of the cost to make the upgrade worthwhile. 

 

You may be one of those fortunate folks to whom cost is not a factor, or you may simply be so attached to the Santa Fe F-3's that it's worth it to you to get what you like better even if it's a few hundred more. For me, value for money tipped the scales.