Scale GG-1 Amtrak Repaint

GG1 4877 posted:

The whole question of PRR DGLE or "Brunswick Green" is one that will be debated to the end of time.  It is such a challenging question that the PRRT&HS has a committee just on colors and they are still discussing the correct drift cards for this color. 

 

While no PRR units were painted totally black, when fresh out of the shops they were nearly black.  I don't remember the formulas, but it was something like a few drops of green into gallons of black paint.  From what I understand the whole model version in pure black comes from the restoration of GG1 4935 in 1977 by "Friends of the GG1" and Amtrak.  That unit was regularly referred to as "Blackjack" due to how dark the DGLE was after a fresh repaint.  AHM did a commemorative version that was painted black in the 70s and built by Rivarossi.  I believe that is where Williams got the idea to paint theirs black. 

 

Overall, the Williams version while it doesn't have any green in it, may be more accurate then a lot of green PRR locomotives that have been produced over the years.

 

 

My understanding that GG1 #4935 got it's name "Black Jack" due to totaling it's numbers on the side 4+9+3+5=21,  Black Jack, as in the card game.  

GG1 4877 posted:

The whole question of PRR DGLE or "Brunswick Green" is one that will be debated to the end of time.  It is such a challenging question that the PRRT&HS has a committee just on colors and they are still discussing the correct drift cards for this color. 

 

While no PRR units were painted totally black, when fresh out of the shops they were nearly black.  I don't remember the formulas, but it was something like a few drops of green into gallons of black paint.  From what I understand the whole model version in pure black comes from the restoration of GG1 4935 in 1977 by "Friends of the GG1" and Amtrak.  That unit was regularly referred to as "Blackjack" due to how dark the DGLE was after a fresh repaint.  AHM did a commemorative version that was painted black in the 70s and built by Rivarossi.  I believe that is where Williams got the idea to paint theirs black. 

 

Overall, the Williams version while it doesn't have any green in it, may be more accurate then a lot of green PRR locomotives that have been produced over the years.

 

 

I thought that 4935 was referred toes Blackjack, because the digits add up to 21.

When "Friend of the GG1" handed over the check for $8712. for cosmetic restoration, the check number also was 4935.  

originally posted by gg14877:

While no PRR units were painted totally black, when fresh out of the shops they were nearly black.  
I don't remember the formulas, but it was something like a few drops of green into gallons of black paint. 

ha...ha... haa!Lets see what happens when YOU drop a few drops of green into ONE gallon of black paint! They try a few drops of yellow TOO while you are at it.

Really?  GET REAL! Enough with those Faux Old Wives Tails!

  The black, year-#1 Lionel GGs exist. I not only looked at one for years, I ran it once, and there was 1 still sealed in the box sitting above it. Gramps was collecting already upon its release, bought two, but it was never opened. Held to the right light, you can see the green pigment is there too, so my vote is for the paint formula mix-up on the first runs night shift. The stripes are especially delicate, and fade too. I doubt you could see them well today, even on a "perfect" one.

  My own research on the real "Brunswick green" led me to find that a "true Brunswick green"(there are variations) is nearer black when new. But copper pigments within the paint oxidize after exposure to the elements, and they turn green. Eventually changing the overall appearance to a dark green over time.

  When clean, and in the light, the fresh copper pigment gives it a "special shimmer".

But, I never saw a real GG-1 with my own eyes, does that sound about right?

EDIT: sorry for the semi-repeat, I had missed my own post from last year. The oxidation bit is a "recent discovery" though

Wow....lots of interesting info on this thread.......thanks to all.

Peter

I took this picture of 4935 at 30th Street.  You can see green, even though the dirt.  

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

originally posted by gg14877:

While no PRR units were painted totally black, when fresh out of the shops they were nearly black.  
I don't remember the formulas, but it was something like a few drops of green into gallons of black paint. 

ha...ha... haa!Lets see what happens when YOU drop a few drops of green into ONE gallon of black paint! They try a few drops of yellow TOO while you are at it.

Really?  GET REAL! Enough with those Faux Old Wives Tails!

Since you are the expert, what is the formula for DGLE?  It's easy to take cheap shots, clip only a portion of the original post, and not present any real information in return.

At first, I hated them. But I'm really starting to like the GG's. Thankfully, I don't have an appropriate place for a GG line...lol

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Thanks to Dave at O Scale Custom Decals I have been able to do a credible job repainting a Weaver brass O scale Conrail GG-1 to the black Amtrak scheme. Dave's service is fantastic and I highly recommend him if you need decals. They are sharp, quick, and high quality items.

 

I am in the process of trying to keep the train hobby alive in our train room while we figure out what the next layout is going to be. I have set myself the task of collecting all of the different GG-1 schemes in O scale. Of course, I am going to have to paint some of them myself. I know this Amtrak black version was offered by MTH, but I missed one on Oy Vay when some wacko bid almost $1,000 for it. Yikes, where is my spray can?

 

It has been fascinating comparing the different O scale versions of the GG-1's from Lionel, MTH, Weaver, Williams, and Third Rail. The last three photos are of my recently acquired Third Rail "Rivets" version. What wonderful detail !!

 

My dad used to take me down to Penn Station when I was five years old and put me into the cabs of the GG-1's that rolled in. He worked for the New York City Transit Authority and never failed to get me into the GG-1's. I will never forget my experiences !

 

As I indicated, the new Amtrak black is a Weaver brass version. The Penn Central is a Lionel JLC. The Conrail is a Williams and the green five stripe is another Lionel JLC version. I was lucky enough to pick up three Williams when Trainworld was having its blow out sale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PC # 4901 was the lead G pulling the Kennedy funeral train, the 2nd G was # 4903.

looks like it was played with a bit, and dropped on the floor a few times!

But the painted strips sure held up!

Originally Posted by jmiller320:

Check out the back of that (and the engineer's cupola window):  

Thanks Lee, I've been collecting shots of the GG-1/2 for the fan shroud build and that is a "new one". It's always dark and full of shadows around the shroud I can't see it well.

I'm glad you could use the photo. I'd just done a simply google search for "GG1 switcher" and found that.

   It's the poles present that let me know it was different. Still dark, but better in areas. Not fully knowing what I'm recreating there, is the only reason I even stopped that build.

   With all the GG-1 fans in this world, I figure there is a great close-up shot of that contraption somewhere .

Horrifying, like half a basketball.

I lived near the mainline of the Pennsylvania so I saw allot of gg1's go by and you could tell the green in the DGLE painted G's. It was best to see them on a sunny day.

Most people thought they were black, and even rail fans would argue with me that they were black until I showed them proof from an article I had from the PRRT&HS. 

You can get arguments from both sides but there is no doubt they had green in the paint scheme. 

Scrapiron Scher posted:

Horrifying, like half a basketball.

  That's funny .

   It took me a long time to build enough nerve to cut one in half, and it was only a newer Williams dummy. If it wasn't so heavy a dummy, and pulled a wee bit easier, I never wouldn't have done it.  But it is a part of the GG-1 history, though a scary one. They should have called it "The Mary Shelley".

Adriatic posted:

   It's the poles present that let me know it was different. Still dark, but better in areas. Not fully knowing what I'm recreating there, is the only reason I even stopped that build.

   With all the GG-1 fans in this world, I figure there is a great close-up shot of that contraption somewhere .

Does this help ?

Right click on pic, click open in new tab, click on pic and it'll be a larger size.

Does anyone know of film of this GG0.5 running?

BTW, I found another shot of it:

Nice to revisit this subject.  It inspired me to experiment with duplicating DGLE but never got around to doing anything about it until recently.  Judging from early color photos ( fresh paint jobs ), DGLE barely scratches the green spectrum.  I produced a pretty close match and the formula is as simple as alluded to in previous posts.

I have access to numerous shades of automotive lacquer and hit upon the color after a few misadventures in mixing.  Lacquer toners were useless, disappearing into the base black without a trace.  Adding green to the black produced a undesirable greyish tone.  By simply adding bright yellow to black a truer midnight green color emerges.  By slowly adding the yellow tint your eyes will be fooled into thinking there's no change in color until it's too late.  Keep an open sample of black along side of the black you are tinting and the subtle change towards green will become obvious.  As soon as the slightest color change to green becomes apparent you've probably arrived at what I classify as DGLE.

The black/green controversy is understandable considering how the eye can be fooled by subtle tones and reflections.  Here's an example of a black paint job modified in tone by taking on the colors of its surroundings and decoration.  DGLE or what?

Bruce

Bruce,

I don't know if it's DGLE but it's a real sharp paint job and it looks right. Nice job.

Thanks, Pat.  Much appreciated.  When I get the chance I'll paint something in the DGLE I mixed to show as an example.  As long as the weather holds out on this long weekend it'll be perfect for spraying lacquer.

Bruce

Trussman posted:

Adriatic posted:

   It's the poles present that let me know it was different. Still dark, but better in areas. Not fully knowing what I'm recreating there, is the only reason I even stopped that build.

   With all the GG-1 fans in this world, I figure there is a great close-up shot of that contraption somewhere .

Does this help ?

Right click on pic, click open in new tab, click on pic and it'll be a larger size.

Has anyone in here done a kitbash of this?

Gene H posted:

Trussman posted:

Adriatic posted:

   It's the poles present that let me know it was different. Still dark, but better in areas. Not fully knowing what I'm recreating there, is the only reason I even stopped that build.

   With all the GG-1 fans in this world, I figure there is a great close-up shot of that contraption somewhere .

Does this help ?

Right click on pic, click open in new tab, click on pic and it'll be a larger size.

Has anyone in here done a kitbash of this?

Here's a few pix of an HO GG1 kit bashed. I found a while back on ebay.  

Someone want to spell out the words for DGLE ?

Trussman posted:

Gene H posted:

Trussman posted:

Adriatic posted:

   It's the poles present that let me know it was different. Still dark, but better in areas. Not fully knowing what I'm recreating there, is the only reason I even stopped that build.

   With all the GG-1 fans in this world, I figure there is a great close-up shot of that contraption somewhere .

Does this help ?

Right click on pic, click open in new tab, click on pic and it'll be a larger size.

Has anyone in here done a kitbash of this?

Here's a few pix of an HO GG1 kit bashed. I found a while back on ebay.  

That's really cool. Thanks for sharing.