Scale passenger cars

Math time!  What was the size (s) of these cars in real life?  "O" scale...4 feet is 1 inch.  If the car was 84 feet long in real life, it would be 21 inches long in scale.

My MTH Premier Madisons are 18" long = 72', but I do not know if in the real world there were 64' cars.

Keith, Where is the 18" measured?  Thanks, John

Thx guys - I can easily do the math and determine the dimensions represented by a model.  I just do not know if in RL the models were those sizes.  I am mostly concerned about the height.  Is 12' a correct height for a Madison?  To me it seems a *bit* short, but I do not know which is why I asked.  If anyone knows, that answer would be great, or if you can point me to a reference I can do the research myself - just not sure where to really start to get accurate info.

Tom,

I will also see if I can find any of those you mentioned as well.

HLFRITZ,

What scale size (length, width or height) should be for a passenger car depends on the railroad you are modeling and the manufacturer of the cars used by that railroad.  The height factor is usually limited by clearances (tunnels, station overhangs, etc.) that already exist when the railroad ordered the cars.  Most modelers are more concerned about length because that factor determines the minimum acceptable track radius to be used successfully with the cars.

If you desire to model a certain railroad, search the internet for info about that railroad's passenger cars and car suppliers.  While I'm not positive about this, I will offer my opinion that Madison cars were not made to "scale" because no real Madison cars existed.  I believe they were made to be "representations" of real heavyweight passenger cars that would travel through model curves.

You seem to focus on the height.  I would suggest you take the engine you might be pulling these cars with and measure it on the tracks.  Then, compare that to your known 12" height of the cars you like.  If you're satisfied, move forward.  If not, look around for something else that suits your fancy.

Chuck

Chuck,

Thx.  The locos are 3.75" to 4.25" in height.  I do not wish to model a particular railroad, but I do want to be close enough to some form of reality.  While I know that might not sit well with some, it is what I am aiming for; no I do not want to use traditional or semi-scale equipment.  Did passenegr cars actually have about 4' of height difference compared to most locomotives?  To clarify, I am focusing on steam, very late 1890's through 1940 or so.  I do realize a lot changed in that time such as use of steel passenger cars, first heavyweight and then lightweight.

Thanks for the info on the Madisons, that is helpful.  Perhaps I can just select a RR and do some research and see what I find.  The Madisons seem to fit my "stereotype" of what I am looking for though.

The only real "scale length" heavyweight passenger cars currently available in O SCALE (3-Rail), are the Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot models. None of the other manufacturers, Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc., are truly "scale length".

Thx, what about the height concern?  I do not mind shorter cars (probably 15" or 60') is fine with me.

rattler21 posted:

Keith, Where is the 18" measured?  Thanks, John

Not sure, I think it is overall length including couplers. They were marketed as being 72'. Sorry, they are all in boxes, so difficult to measure one.

Hot Water posted:

The only real "scale length" heavyweight passenger cars currently available in O SCALE (3-Rail), are the Sunset/3rd Rail/Golden Gate Depot models. None of the other manufacturers, Lionel, MTH, K-Line, etc., are truly "scale length".

What!!! These aren't scale?? Well, knock me down and call me "Shorty"!

I love the micro single-truck passenger cars! I've never seen them before, are they made by any particular vendor, or are these scratch made?

**** those are pretty cool actually!

Guys,

am I being overly concerned about height of passenger cars vs. the locomotives?

hlfritz posted:

Hello,

I am looking to purchase some scale passenger cars but I am having a difficult time determining if they are actually scale or not.  For instance I am liking the Williams Crown Edition Madison sets (5  cars) that I am finding, but I cannot tell if they are actually scale or not.  I have asked for measurements, and I got a reply with these measurements (Williams 2508 Great Northern Madison set):

coupler end to coupler end: 16"

length of body: 14"

height 3"

width: 2.75"

It seems if they were scale they should be a bit taller?  Maybe not though.

Thx!

Helmut,

The Williams Crown Edition are nice passenger cars, however there is one type of coupler to stay away from in the Crown Edition and that is the fixed couplers(non opening couplers) on the early Crown Edition as the trucks don't track correctly and derail constantly. The fixed couplers were mainly in the 6 car passenger sets by Williams.

You can buy the Williams passenger cars for very little compared to K-Line or Lionel.

Lee Fritz

Some of the scale passenger cars(higher end) made by K-Line have opening doors, something that Williams never had.

Lee Fritz

Thx Lee.  Not sure I care about the doors.

Anyone have a comment on my height concern?  issue?  non-issue?  or are you gonna say it is my opinion? (issue with that is i have no cars yet, so cannot visualize)

hlfritz posted:

**** those are pretty cool actually!

Guys,

am I being overly concerned about height of passenger cars vs. the locomotives?

In my opinion, yes. Depending on what era and passenger train type you are trying to model, especially with heavyweight passenger equipment, many times the steam locomotive was a bit higher than the cars.

Thx HW.  appreciated.

anyone else?

RootBeerRail posted:

I love the micro single-truck passenger cars! I've never seen them before, are they made by any particular vendor, or are these scratch made?

They're not made anymore, those are the RMT cars, but he went out of business.  He's selling the remaining stock, and there are a few in some roadnames.

http://www.readymadetoys.com/rmttoytrpaca.html

Then, there's the matching diesels to pull them.

http://www.readymadetoys.com/noname5.html

The length can be anywhere from 52' to 85' or in O scale 13" to 20".  This is measured over the ends of the car body -- not the couplers.  A PRR P70 is 14' tall from the top of the rail to the top of the roof (not ventilators).  This is 3 1/2" in O scale.  The car width is 2" short of 10' or 2.5" minus in O scale.  The height of the car body is 10' 5" or roughly 2 3/4".  The heights and widths remain about the same for the different class of cars. 

Get the width and height right then you can run any length and consider them to be scale.

Jan

Prototype data (H/W/L) easily available from the Inter Web, a standard ruler (US O scale: 1/4" = 1 foot) and your questions are answered. It's not a matter of "opinion". 

Jan,

Thx much!  Just what I was looking for.  so a 12' tall car is not necessarily out of whack it seems?

D500,

maybe - but it seems my google foo is failing me on this one and I am generally pretty good.  i probably do not know enough about what to actually search for.  as previously noted the calculations are easy to do, it is just finding that prototype data.

The 14" Madison cars made by Williams are undersized. They are copies of the pre/post war Lionel Madison cars. The 18" Williams heavyweight cars are scale size for a 72' car.

Prototype passenger cars were usually referred to by the length between vestibules, not over ends.    hence a PRR P70, 70 ft coach was 70 ft for the passengers plus 2 vestibules that were about 4 feet at each end.     The car was close to 80 feet overall.    

Most delux cars such as diners and sleepers of any kind were 80 ft in the heavy weight era and longer streamline era.     So it is better to stick with coaches if want shorter cars.   

There were prototype cars shorter than the P70.   PRR had P54s that were mostly converted to MU cars.   I think CNW had some 60 ft coaches.   There were some other roads that had some 60 ft coaches too I think (opinion).    There were many 60 ft baggage and mail cars.   On these note that there would be no vestibule, so the total length would be 60 feet.

And then there are the Sierra RR cars 32' bodies, just short of 40' to end of platforms.  These have been in countless movies and TV shows. "Ghost Railroads of Kentucky" shows shorty cars used on other roads , too (book).   Walthers did kits for the Sierra coach and combine and for ultra short one truck cars, decade's before RMT.

The Passenger Car Library series by W David Randall has scale drawings of just about any car you would wish to measure. A Budd lightweight from 1955 for instance measures 12 feet from rail top to roof top.

Jan

Further, I'm seeing Pullman cars for the New Haven at 13' 4" from rail top to car top. The 14' height for a P70, previously quoted, looks realistic.

Jan

Thank you guys.  Lots of good info.  I might have to live with a scale 12' height, almost everyone I am asking is returning 3" height on the cars.  Or I might have to shell out a LOT more money or figure out a way to kitbash the lower height into a taller coach.

Walthers kits used to come in two varieties--lower height to match Lionel (Irvington) cars and scale height. 

Ah, that might be a good option as well.  I will go look and see what they might have.

hlfritz posted:

Ah, that might be a good option as well.  I will go look and see what they might have.

You do realize that the Walthers O Scale passenger car kits have NOT been produced, nor available, for probably more than 20 years? You might find some on eBay by searching for either All-Nation or Walthers O Scale passenger cars.

nope, i am really new to the whole hobby.  thanks.

Thx John.  is it the same as Walthers?  no longer made?

Hot Water posted:

hlfritz posted:

Ah, that might be a good option as well.  I will go look and see what they might have.

You do realize that the Walthers O Scale passenger car kits have NOT been produced, nor available, for probably more than 20 years? You might find some on eBay by searching for either All-Nation or Walthers O Scale passenger cars.

There are several on eBay right now, mostly the Lionel-height ones.  But my post was more meant to be an illustration of the differing height offerings than an ad for Walthers kits.  I suppose I should have been clearer.  Apologies to all involved.

John,

Thx.  I would have sworn my email was in there - but I think I have rectified that now.

Palallin,

no worries!  and I did get the point that they are different and perhaps my idea of kitbashing might actually work.