Signal Relays

@mike g. (Mike) - Those are geared toward house current, not driving LEDs.  That's not to say they wouldn't switch an LED.  They do require a hefty input voltage of 12volts DC to switch them on as well. What are they using to drive the relays?

Anthony

Hi Anthony, I have a Z4000, plus all sorts of power supplies just laying around! I am sure I can come up with something that would work,

@mike g. (Mike) - I wish I had me a Z4000!  Not that I do any conventional running of trains but the voltage and amperage displays are really nice.  Just so we're on the same page, you can't use the direct output of the Z4000 to trigger the relays board shown in the picture.  However, you can use a 12V DC regulator with the direct output of one of your 3 rail power supplies to produce the 12V DC needed.

A

Anthony, I am sure I have a 12v dc wallwart in my collection of electronics.

1.  Put a 10-cent diode in series with each coil, and you can continue to use an A-C supply in the range of 10 to 14 volts, that's referenced to the outside rail, assuming that's the application. No need for full-wave rectification...half-wave is fine, or a regulator which is not needed at all. They are not precision devices that require voltage or current regulation.

2.  The coils do not require a hefty amount of current to operate. Probably 10 to 20 milliamp.

3. They are not geared to house current. The  250 Volt/10 Amp rating is the maximum allowed for the relay contacts. You will never exceed that on a toy train layout unless you use the relays for traction motors in pre- or post-war locomotives, pulling lots of lighted passenger cars.

Be advised, that the relays in the photo appear to provide only one set of transfer contacts, so your signaling/switching options are limited to NC-COM-NO contact arrangements. They also appear to have one side of all the coils in common, with the corresponding individual coil terminals brought out on the terminal strip. The common return scheme may limit your options.

There are other, better, relays available at minimal cost, which provide the option of 12 or 24 volt operation, and which provide two sets of transfers, which allow more logical and varied signaling schemes.  I use the RBSN models made by Altronix. They do not provide contacts capable of 10 Amps, but you don't need that capability for LED's or even incandescent signal lamps.

I think it would be great if there were a section of the forum where these basic electrical Q n A are posted.  We seem to ask and answer the same topics periodically.  I'd be happy to create a few pages of basic juice topics, such as how to select and wire relays and switches.

Hi Arthur, thank you for all the information that you put forth for me to look at. I was under the impression that the relays would work fine for simple track signals, I am on a fixed budget along with my layout so if I can make things work with what I have already and save my money for stuff I really want then that would be great! I will keep my mind open and see what else comes up. right now if I have to buy more stuff to make signals work then they will just stay in  todo box!

Thank you again!

They will work for simple 2-color red/green signals, in a system where you are using insulated rail sections, or even manual pushbuttons. I just wanted to warn you that they might not be adequate if you intended to create more complicated schemes. Go for it!  And Semper Fi !

APB  (Son of a Marine and a W.A.V.E)

i agree that it would be great to have a place on the forum that would address "wiring" and provide easy to understand diagrams vs dialog - a picture often is much easier to follow - i note that a number of discussion topics includes something like: "does anyone have a diagram? " and then the responses are just text which is sometimes more difficult to understand - in this trend the author was asking for a diagram to help him use the equipment he has and did not get an answer - or did i miss it?  anyway responses with simple diagrams would be appreciated

Arthur, thank you sir I was hoping someone would say they would work for just green and red.

But Ted is correct I was hoping someone had a drawing or a diagram. I know someone does cause I got one about 3 years ago but some how lost it!

Thanks again to you both for your input! And Arthur, SEMPER FI!

It would be a great help to have the pinouts for the terminal block on the right side of that board. That will tell us how it has to be wired. And those relays look like regular NC-C-NO  DT types, so they are pretty versatile. One 12vdc wallwart or rectified AC supply with an adjustable buck converter (to get 12vdc) should be all you need on the front end for activation.

Rod

Hi Everyone, I knew I had gotten it somewhere before and sure enough it was from Stan2004. Here is an old photo he sent me back at the start of 2017. I am posting it here as it may help someone down the road.

Thanks again Stan! You Rock!

Each relay has three contact terminals. Common, normally open and normally closed.  They are arranged in sets of 3 along the relays.

Each relay has an individual terminal that is energized to make the relay operate. All the relays have their coil common side tied together.  All these are along the other 6-terminal strip.  The photo is small, but from experience, that how the board is arranged. It's a common product found for a few bucks on Ebay.

My ears were burning so I figured someone on OGR was talking about me!

What's insane are the prices of the eBay-from-Asia relay modules.  Even after the Chinese tariffs, postal increases, or whatever...you can still get these relay modules for about $1 a relay.  And now even Amazon carries them albeit for a bit more but you "fulfilled-by-amazon" faster shipping.

So if you already have a 12V DC wall-wart (if you don't they are just a few bucks on eBay or Amazon), follow the diagram above.  The above diagram was hastily edited from a previous OGR diagram but I attempt to show that this method can support signal heads that a powered by either DC or traditional Accessory AC.

If there is a "trick", I'd say it's the notion of using a 12V DC wall-wart to power the relay module.  The key connection is tying the "DC -" from the wall-wart to the AC common (outer-rail).

I don't show it, but this also works for 3-aspect (red/yellow/green or PRR vert/diag/horz) signals that have the timed-yellow function.  I can clarify/elaborate if not obvious.

---

Mike, in your photo the 4-channel relay module is slightly different than the one I show. 

If you are using insulated-rail triggering, you need to move the "jumpers" from the H position to the L position.  "L" means "Low" or common/ground which is of course how the outer-rail insulated-rail triggering method works.  Just ask more questions if I'm being obtuse!

Hi Stan,  I knew if I threw your name out there your ears would start to burn! It just took a while to get for the west coast to the east!

Thanks for the information and the photos. It is so much easier for guys like me when photos are attached as I know I am not the only one that is slow with this kind of stuff! I will try and get out to the train room today and see if I can get things to work!

Thanks again Stan! You Rock!

Hi Stan, this is going to be a silly question, but for the insulated rail do I need to disconnect the ground from the main power source? I put drops from both outside rails?

Hi John, so I am not sure what to do as both my outside rails are tied together then to  a common ground.

You need an insulated outside rail if you're going to use that method of triggering the signals.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Stan, this is going to be a silly question, but for the insulated rail do I need to disconnect the ground from the main power source? I put drops from both outside rails?

Mike, what kind of track system are you using?  Fastrack, Realtrax, etc.?  I might have missed it, but I kind of assumed we are talking about a "signal relay" that would be triggered by an insulated-rail section.

If we're taking a step back to define/describe how to make or buy an insulated-rail triggering section in the first place, that's fine.  Just want to get everyone on the same page!

Hi Stan, I am using MTH Scale Track. The section I am using was checked on the insolated or isolated rail and there is not continuity between the center section of track I am trying to use. The only thing that connects the same rail is the ground drops that are tied to the other rail and then to the common ground for the layout!

That's why I was asking about the ground disconnect.

I guess I should have started my my post that I am dumb as a box of rocks when it comes to this stuff!
Thanks for all your help!

Ok guys, I thought I would give you more information. I am using a 8 cluster relay board and thinking it should be the same for both tracks using 4 blocks for each track. Here is a photo of what I am using, and what I get. I am also adding a short video I took 3 years ago when I first started this whole thing and it worked then. I am just missing something now that I am trying to put it on my layout!

Any and all HELP would be great!

@mike g. posted:

Hi Stan, I am using MTH Scale Track. The section I am using was checked on the insolated or isolated rail andthere is not continuity between the center section of track I am trying to use. The only thing that connects the same rail is the ground drops that are tied to the other rail and then to the common ground for the layout!

...

Mike, I'm a bit confused as to your statements.

When you say there is "not continuity between the center section" I don't get it!

When you join 2 sections of Scaletrax, the copper tabs join together the 3 rails.

When you say "center section" are you talking about the center (hot) rail?  I don't understand the terminology "center section".

Since you use Scaletrax, did you "make" the breaks in the outer rail by using a saw or whatever to physically cut or break the continuity in the outer rail?

And in your video you say that it worked.  I see how the signal changes between red-green.  I don't understand what you were using to do this.  Relays?  And if this "worked" why are you trying to change it.

Finally, are you using Scaletrax lock-on sections with the 3 wires (1 red, 2 black) as shown below?

Hi Stan, poor choice of words. I meant the center point between the 2 gaps in the isolated rail, the section I am installing the signals is with soldered on drops just like MTH lock-ons

Hi Stan If you scroll up, the first diagram is what I got from you in early2017 and I built it on my office floor.it worked perfectly. I don't know how I screwed things up! Lol

Mike, Stan: I recall this discussion from a number of years ago.

Here is a link...

What Mike wanted the signals to do were directional. That is, when a train approaches from one side of the signal bridge, the facing head would show green but the opposing head would turn red. So there were 2 blocks separated at the signal bridge like this:  ====== | ======  That's what it was all about.

It seems that moving the working test situation to the real layout is where the problem lies.

@Consolidated Leo posted:

Mike, Stan: I recall this discussion from a number of years ago.

Here is a link...

What Mike wanted the signals to do were directional. That is, when a train approaches from one side of the signal bridge, the facing head would show green but the opposing head would turn red. So there were 2 blocks separated at the signal bridge like this:  ====== | ======  That's what it was all about.

It seems that moving the working test situation to the real layout is where the problem lies.

Isn't that the truth! I am glad you remembered!

Mike: One thing you should understand about Stan's solution is that he is mixing DC current from the wall wart with the AC track power. I don't quite understand it but as he explained it, "It's like two ships passing in the night." And when you think about how traditional whistles are driven by a DC offset to the power (center) rail, it's been a method used in model railroading for some time. And it works.

So, I think I read that you have drop wires connected to each of the three rails of your Scale Track sections. Without isolated rails, you would connect the two outer rails together as your common return and the center rail gets AC hot (power).

To add an isolated rail section, you need to put the gaps in for your trigger to the signals. But you can not connect the two outer rails together for that section. That would defeat the purpose of the isolated section. Both AC and DC current will not be present in that section until the wheels of the train complete the circuit.

@mike g. posted:

Hi guys, I was told to throw this out here for Stan2004. I was wondering if I could use this relay pack to run 4 signals. If so does anyone have a wire diagram? They are both MTH and Lionel signals.

Thanks for the help in advance!

Mike, where are we on this? In your original post, it seemed you're asking about using a 4-relay module to control 4-signals.   In this case 1 insulated section controls 1 signal head.

Most recently, Leo identified a bi-directional signaling application where it takes 2 relays to control 1 signal.  In this case 2 insulated sections control 1 signal head depending on the direction of the train.

If there is still a problem, which application are we dealing with?

Hi Stan, Leo is correct, but I also have the 4 relay for a future project. I am sorry for switching gears midway, but the grandkids really wanted to see it work. Still not working not sure of where to cut track or even if I have too.

@mike g. posted:

Hi Stan, poor choice of words. I meant the center point between the 2 gaps in the isolated rail, the section I am installing the signals is with soldered on drops just like MTH lock-ons

OK. I understand we're talking about the bi-directional application. But I'm still a bit confused.

For the bi-directional application you need 3 gaps in the isolated rail as shown above diagram.  3 gaps creates 2 sections or islands of insulated rail.  As shown above the each of the 2 islands has a wire going to the relay module.  One wire is A (orange), the other wire is B (pink).

Within the span of these special isolated rail "islands", the black common train transformer connection must NOT connect to the island.  The black can only connect to the continuous outer-rail (the lower rail in this diagram).

Outside the span of these special isolated rail "islands", the black common train transformer connection connects to BOTH outer rails.

Note that I'm not addressing the DC power connections at this point.  Taking it one step at a time, the idea is to first confirm the gaps and isolated-rail sections are in order.

Ok Stan, I have a gap on each end, just not in the center. I am going to try and take care of that today if the CEO & Grandkids don't have a different day planned. No rain, just sunny and cool today.

Morning guys, I was able to get out to the train room and got all my gaps in place. I was able to get one track working correctly with the signals. But I have one track that has 3 switches in it that still isnt working right, plus now I have 2 switches that are back to back that have a problem where the engine just stops there. I check the switches with a ohm meter and on the ground rail I left intact there is no ground connection completing the electrical connection for the engine.

I am not sure what to do now, but I am going to go out and see if I can figure it out.

Thanks for all your help!

Hi Stan and Leo, I have a big question for you 2. I cut all the outer ground wires to the outside rail and am still getting power reading from it with the center rail. Here is a photo of one of the MTH switches I am using. I see where both outside rails are tied together. Is there any type of work around so I can get my signal bridge to work properly?

Mike: It's good to hear that you've got one of your signal bridges in place and working! As for the switches, that's another thing altogether. I am not familiar with the MTH switches that you are using so I'm not sure how you can fit them in with the isolated rail method for triggering your signals.

One thing you should understand is that you may have to rework your track drops to be sure that you've got track power to all the rails around the isolated sections. I suspect that is why your engines stop on the back to back switches.

It might be helpful to see a diagram of the areas with the switches and the plan to include the signal bridge there. Just a rough sketch would do. Include where you have track power drops. Checking with the meter is a good approach.

I have a section with three back to back switches, so I isolated a section on each end of the switches. You can't carry an isolated rail through a Fastrack switch.The trains are long enough so they hit the second section before leaving the first, activating the signal for the whole length.

Hi Leo and John, Here is a drawing of my layout. the circle area is where I have the back to back switches and the single light blue line is about where the signal bridge is. The Red dots are roughly the locations of my power drops. All the ground drops to the isolation rail have cut. The problem I see I am having is that the MTH Scale Track has both outside rails tied together. I am open to ideas. Please remember that photos and drawings help this very slow electrical guy! LOL

Mike, your diagram is very helpful.  Can you mark the diagram to show the location of the gaps/cuts to make the insulated rail "islands" for your 2 main lines?  And can you indicate which outer-rail has the gaps/cuts?

Hi Stan, here you go. The green lines are where the gaps are cut. The blue lines are the isolated rails, they are both inside, close to each other. The long run with no switches works great!

2 questions:

1) Does the LENGTH of your shortest train/consist straddle the 2 back-to-back switches?  If, for example, the signal lighting behavior is a bit "off" if you only run a lone short switcher engine, handcar, trolley, whatever thru the inner loop would this be a show-stopper?

2) Is it a pain-in-the-*** to cut an additional gap or gaps in the Scaletrax outer-rail if this gets you to the finish line?

Alot of the time I run a switcher and short train on that line. its no problem to cut more gaps if it gets me to the finish line. But both rails are tied together under the switches from the factory.