Small Fire on the Layout

Glad you are OK. Get a fire extinguisher in the room pronto. When I had my HO layout, I had a electrical fire in a tunnel. Scary stuff and that fire signaled the end for that layout.

rattler21 posted:

How long had it been sparking?  John

The piece with the copper tape on it has been sparking for a while now, and electricity would not pass through it until I added the tape. It was hot to the touch. I should have know that it was an issue.

Maxrailroad posted:

The piece with the copper tape on it has been sparking for a while now, and electricity would not pass through it until I added the tape. It was hot to the touch. I should have know that it was an issue.

Holy Cow YES!  If you have heat on a track joint, it's crying out for attention!  You're lucky that ignoring this obvious issue wasn't disastrous!

Had something similar a couple of weeks ago.  Everything on the layout started "underperforming" just a bit.  Then I got the slightest whiff of something and tracked (ha!) it down to the outside rail of a curve section that leads into my main power lockon, which was barely sparking at its connection to an 022.  Guess it's clear now what the preferred path of current is back to the my ZW's neutral.

Of course I burned my thumb confirming it was indeed rocket hot...

I've had similar "overheating" of track joints before. if I make a new layout or put more trackage in a given space I now have a habit of running my hand along the rails after powering it up for the first time. Looking for overheating from poor track connections or wiring. If it feels warm after a couple minutes, there's a problem that needs correcting.

Can't have too many power feeds.  Two railers usually do not use rail joiners to pass electricity.  Every piece of rail gets a drop.

Tom Tee posted:

Can't have too many power feeds.  Two railers usually do not use rail joiners to pass electricity.  Every piece of rail gets a drop.

As a 3 railer, I don't either Tom. I learned that from a 2 railer who happened to be an electrical engineer.

Max, now you know that when you see the sparks you have a problem. Those joints can get as hot as a soldering iron. There is an easy way to fix these high resistance joints. Use a pair of pliers and squeeze the rail around the track pins to make better contact. Then carefully check that the joint is cold once you turn the power back on.

You should have a fire extinguisher. I recommend a CO2 type. It is bad enough needing to use it, don't make it worse having to clean up after it. That's just insult to injury.

P.S. That copper tape is not a solution to the problem. It's just a band-aid that covers it up. The adhesive back is not any better than the loose joint itself in conducting the electricity.

I drag my hand on the track for hot spots too. I've done it ever since I saw a hollow tubular track pin glow red during a night run.

It's time to review the power distribution scheme and method of block isolation, if any.

Now you have learned when you find a hot rail or a sparking joint or a joint that doesn't connect, deal with it as soon as is possible.

Here's the "pin bend" video to help with connections of FasTrack.

I think getting a fire extinguisher is a good idea, maybe 2 glad your okay

Tom Tee posted:

Can't have too many power feeds.  Two railers usually do not use rail joiners to pass electricity.  Every piece of rail gets a drop.

I agree but I will admit, I don't have a power feed for every piece of rail.  I run power drops every 3 to 4 feet.  But wherever I can, I also solder the rail joints together.  I also never allow a turnout or crossing to carry power.

I've been working with electric most of my life.  It never ceases to amaze me what it can do under the right (or wrong) conditions.  

Glad you discovered this before something much worse happened.

Tony 

Something that has been ignored in this discussion is load.  Unless there is a load on the power, you'll never see heat.  A track joint will only get hot if it's carrying significant current.  You have to take that into consideration when you're checking connections.  I have a rather large set of resistors (75 thru 300W) that I use to load test transformers, they work well for load testing track as well.

A better way to check joints than using a hand to find heat is to use a voltmeter when the joint is carrying a load.  Put the prods on each side of the joint.  A good joint will show 0 volts.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Something that has been ignored in this discussion is load.  Unless there is a load on the power, you'll never see heat.  A track joint will only get hot if it's carrying significant current.  

Definitely - while I have perhaps a dozen 0 center-rail taps throughout my ~150' of track, out of laziness I only wired 3 or 4 neutral returns (and two of those are on the extreme ends of the layout, which spans 50' end-to-end).  In my case what I discovered (which is now obvious, in retrospect) is that since nearly everything in my layout uses the track for the neutral return, a lot of current (about 7 amps when running X ~12V = 84W) is going to flow back through to the track sections by that "main" return as the path of least resistance.  Not a problem when all is conducting correctly - but a lot of electrons floating around when it isn't.

Thankfully the Illinois Concretus Ry sits atop, well, concrete so the risk of fire is pretty small. It's due for a makeover soon so will be a bit more diligent to wire up more neutral returns the next time around.

That copper tape may have acted much like a sacrificial filament in old fashioned glass fuses.  It was the weakest link.  Kind of expected to burn our above a specified load.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Something that has been ignored in this discussion is load.  Unless there is a load on the power, you'll never see heat.  A track joint will only get hot if it's carrying significant current.  You have to take that into consideration when you're checking connections.  I have a rather large set of resistors (75 thru 300W) that I use to load test transformers, they work well for load testing track as well.

Probably a dumb question, but how do you connect the power resistors to your track to get the load for testing? And what size resistors (ohms/watts) do you use? I have the Lionel PH-180s track for power.

I got some power resistors from one of the Radio Shack store closings. I will have to find them to see what size they are, as I don't remember?

This thread has me wanting to test something... 

Edit: I have a 8 ohm/20 watt, and then 10, 50 & 100 ohm in 10 watt. Not as large as I was thinking they were. Maybe not big enough?

I remember when I was a kid, my first train was a Lionel LV 44 Tonner set, 1957. The transformers that came with them had no fusing, or at lest my unit did not work.

Well one night my engine went off the track on the back loop. I was a little disgusted and tired so I shut the transformer off and went to bed.

The next morning the transformer was not off but all the way on full. The trans got so hot it actually scorched the plywood black. It made a perfect burnt mark where it sat. To this day I hate to think what could of happened if I did not get a call to the rails when I got up, but went right to school.

The basement smelled like I was running my wood burning kit all night long.

In short, we can never be to careful.

 Another thing to be careful of are the electromagnetic uncouple track sections. If one of the control buttons sticks they can get really hot. I never had a fire with one, but a couple of times I was surprised to see just how hot they can get to the touch.

GG1MAN, i've melted uncouplers.

Another way to check track joints is to have the lights off in the room and see where the track starts to glow, I have done this with tubular track many times.

I sued to think that a train buddy of mine was sort of crazy as he had a power drop on every section of Gargraves track on his layout. Now after seeing and reading about other's track problems and what can happen it seems he was rather smart.

Lee Fritz

I have one resistor that's probably rated at about a jillion watts, it's 16 ohms.  It's actually an old heating element, but it's perfect for load testing, probably equates to about a 300-400W resistor at least.  In order to test higher currents, I just clip to windings on it with clip leads.  To parallel two sections, I just clip somewhere in the middle and then to some windings a bit away on each side.  Each winding can be a tap for fine tuning the resistance.  There's no issue of overloading it with anything I have as a transformer.

The "little" 4" long resistor is an 8 ohm 75 watt resistor, I have four of them that I connect one or more in parallel for various loadings.

RJR posted:

GG1MAN, i've melted uncouplers.

Wow, I can believe it!

Oh yea, one more point about the uncoupling track heat issue I mentioned above. The Gargrave track magnet has a heat sensor, probably bi metallic that shuts everything off to the unit for a few minutes until it cools down.

This can be a little annoying when you are doing multiple uncoupling's, but it sure beats melting your couplers.  

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have one resistor that's probably rated at about a jillion watts, it's 16 ohms.  It's actually an old heating element, but it's perfect for load testing, probably equates to about a 300-400W resistor at least.  In order to test higher currents, I just clip to windings on it with clip leads.  To parallel two sections, I just clip somewhere in the middle and then to some windings a bit away on each side.  Each winding can be a tap for fine tuning the resistance.  There's no issue of overloading it with anything I have as a transformer.

The "little" 4" long resistor is an 8 ohm 75 watt resistor, I have four of them that I connect one or more in parallel for various loadings.

During my working life we used to use heaters like that to keep control panels in unheated spaces warm. Pretty sure we got them from Grainger, but I couldn't find any there just now. I don't recall them being all that expensive, but that was also a few years ago, probably back around 2003-2004 or so.

I guess I should probably look around for something a little more robust than what I have now. The RS ones I got were so cheap I couldn't pass them up. They were like 80% off or something, less than $1.00 anyway.

I've melted more than one unoupler. The last about 5 years ago lol

I am in the process of designing and wiring a new layout. I am actually trying to minimize drops because of issues with the DCS signal. I am using one drop per section of a large loop run of about 100 linear feet. Each section has about 8-10 Atlas O pieces of track. I do use jumpers on either side of switches in each electrically isolated section. 

I am careful with rail joiners and I solder my drops in each section of the loop. I prep each joiner with electrically conductive paste. I do keep a fire extinguisher handy. 

Along the "Keep it simple" line of thinking, I ran conduit just behind the edge of my around the wall layout with outlets every 8' for all the power supply units and occasional plug in tool use. 

Plus several mounted fire extinguishers.

A single switch with a red light on the stairway to kill all the duplex outlets upon leaving.

Scrapiron Scher posted:

I am in the process of designing and wiring a new layout. I am actually trying to minimize drops because of issues with the DCS signal. I am using one drop per section of a large loop run of about 100 linear feet. Each section has about 8-10 Atlas O pieces of track. I do use jumpers on either side of switches in each electrically isolated section. 

I am careful with rail joiners and I solder my drops in each section of the loop. I prep each joiner with electrically conductive paste. I do keep a fire extinguisher handy. 

I did the same thing, the one thing I would caution you on is to make sure each drops center rail are isolated from each other. When your drops are that far apart and tied to the same rail it can cause signal clashes.

GG1MAN,

You are exactly correct. I have isolated all my center rail drops but, because of the unreliability of Atlas O switches to carry the signal through, I have had to install jumpers on either side of a switch yet still within the electrically isolated loop. There are, therefore, signal clashes, but I do not know how to avoid that. The bigger issue is a loco not running because the switch has not passed power through.

Scrappy

So we know one reason Lionel bumped up the recommended minimum age from 8 to 14.

What, me worry?

Hi Scrappy, I try to use my switches as demark points for my drop loops. Then all I have to worry about is electrical hand off from block to block through my switches. This is not an issue because I use ROSS turnouts.

I look upon a switch as an opportunity to end 3 blocks and therefore, except in a couple of instances where I have 2 switches back to back, I generally sever all connections under those of my Gargraves and other switches that have center rails connected.

Alfred E Neuman posted:

So we know one reason Lionel bumped up the recommended minimum age from 8 to 14.

What, me worry?

Actually, I am 14! Goes to show anyone can have an accident. 

I agree that fire extinguishers are great to have in a train room but caution about which type to use. I wouldn't have a standard dry chemical extinguisher near my layout. That powder will make a terrible mess! I would recommend the Tundra aerosol units, they are small but can put out larger fires and usually are cheaper. These extinguishers are much easier to clean up after, the dry chemical extinguishers are Terrible! (don't get me wrong they are better than nothing at all if that's all you have)

Or, just convert your layout to a winter wonderland after using the dry chemical style!

I'd say there are destining opinions on the Tundra product.  One is that it has a very short shelf life, and also there is no indication if the can still has pressure.  Also, the effectiveness is certainly questionable.

here's what Consumer Reports says: An aerosol fire spray is no substitute for a fire extinguisher

If you use these, have a real fire extinguisher handy to actually put out the fire.

Alfred E Neuman posted:

So we know one reason Lionel bumped up the recommended minimum age from 8 to 14.

What, me worry?

Not just Lionel.

And, more like "the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act. "

Spoke to a couple of company reps at a past York meet who confirmed this.

---PCJ

As far as the "Tundra" extinguishers, absolutely, positively the WRONG choice. And worrying about "powder" on the layout is absurd. Fires grow quickly and exponentially. At an incredible rate. And the smoke can asphyxiate, and make it impossible to see in front of your hand. To worry  about powder damaging the layout is a statement out of La-La land. And toxic smoke can kill as well as flames. I have removed the bodies of burned dead children from fires. It ain't a pretty sight. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THE DANGER FROM A LAYOUT FIRE! Extinguishers are rated by the UL (underwriters labs).  The SOLE criterion should be the ability of the extinguisher to control a fire. On an extinguisher you will see the letters "A", "B", and "C", which indicates the class of fire they are able to extinguish.  You will see a NUMBER on the side of the extinguisher. Some extinguishers are 2A,4B,1C.  At a minimum, a 40ABC multi-purpose dry chemical should be selected, which have run between $40-$85 at Home Depot. The cost of a single freight car.  Or a dinner for two.  It will be the best investment you have ever made. They have a visible pressure valve. A UL approved ABC extinguisher will be suitable for wood, paper, electrical and oil fires. Remember to look for ALL  three letters. And the "UL" or underwriters labs approval. Dry chemical extinguishers have a control valve/handle and you can stop the discharge when the fire is extinguished.

I might add NEVER EVER HESITATE TO CALL 911 and the FIRE DEPARTMENT!!!!

This is what they get paid for! And they have no objection to showing up, even if not needed.

If there is smoke, you tell them you "have a condition".

If there is s fire, and you are going to extinguish it, tell everyone to evacuate and call 911!

As a former volunteer firefighter for 27 years before I became disabled I totally agree with Tommy. Have good fire extinguishers available nearby and if you have a large layout have several. FIRST CALL 911 AND REPORT IT AND TELL EVERYONE ELSE TO GET OUT!  Shut off all power and then put it out with the fire extinguisher COMPLETELY! then get out yourself! between anything that has burnt and the chemical powder or CO2 from the fire extinguisher you will not be able to breathe well. Get out and stay out. Let the firefighters with their self contained breathing apparatus check out the area and exhaust the area so it is safe to re-enter it. Better to let them make sure it's safe for you. You might just meet up with some new friends. There's 4 of us into trains just in my department.

if you don't feel comfortable using an extinguisher on a fire just call 911 and get everyone out. They will take care of it1

All fire extinguishers can lose pressure or expire when not maintained properly.

There are many fire extinguishing mediums available on the market. In fact, probably the best would be a sprinkler system attached to your security system with constant monitoring. There are always more powerful solutions.... The most important step in using any fire extinguisher, whichever style you choose, is to know when to get out. 

This topic has drifted drastically from the original post where a SMALL electrical fire was observed.

There aren't a replacement but as an extra step in precaution, the aerosols can be handy. I've seen them used twice, both times within a split second because of placement near a stove.

I have 7 real ones, dials in the green, a can of aerosol on the counter 3ft from the stove WITH THE CAP OFF. Its where you would first step back to instinctively. Its not bulky heavy*, not in need of a pin pull and handle assesment. Its full sized counterpart IS on the other side of the fridge if needed, or around the corner in the other direction. For split second convenience, I'll keep my aerosol can there.

*I just realised, I can likely only lift two of my extinguisers anymore. I wonder if the extinguisher refill guys still do  trade ins?