Steam VS Diesel?

Paul,

My guess would be that kids can and do relate to Thomas the Tank engine and Polar Express both of which are steam. Plus I would think steam RTR's may be more attractive to new customers because the engine looks and sounds more interesting as it runs than a diesel. A while ago I got a Pennsy 4-8-4 turbine (PS2) that was from a set breakup. Of course it chuffs (no turbine roar) most likely because MTH thought that sound would be easier for the RTR buyers to relate to. All conjecture by me.

Refreshing to see a post that is an exploration and not set up to become a debate.

I think the answer quite honestly is even now, 50+ years since the last steam engines were pulled from commercial service, they still have a hold on kids especially. Steam engines still make appearances in movies and tv with period settings, and kids books still show pictures of steam trains in them a lot of the time. Plus I agree with another poster, steam engines look very different than diesels, diesels are very modern and streamlined, whereas steam locomotives have all these pipes and gear you see, the connecting rods and valve gear, etc....

I think the preponderance of steam engines in RTR sets reflects that pull, that either the parents feel the kid will like them better or knows it, and the industry reflects what people seem to buy. Keep in mind that the parents buying these sets are almost assuredly didn't see steam engines in use, and even the grandparents of *gasp* my age, 51, never saw them either, so it has little to do with exposure. 

I think it isn't a valid comparison to a slide rule or a mechanical hand calculator or whatever, since these are by their very nature not of the realm of practicality. Real railroads went to diesel engines because as romantic as some feel steam engines were, they were a pain to maintain and costly to operate, but all toy trains run basically on the same mechanisms, and aren't doing anything 'practical', they are more akin to art, or music, where beauty is in the eye of the beholder or listener.

An O gauge steam engine or an O gauge Diesel are beneath the surface the same technology, whether conventional or command control, neither is 'out of date' in that regards, either...

Paul:

All you have to do is measure the public's interest when a steamer on an excursion run generates. People wait along the tracks for hours to get a glimpse. When was the last time that happened for a diesel engine? Simply put, the public sees the magic that one of these treasures generates. This interest translates to model trains very effectively.

Lots of moving parts, more interesting to watch.  I love making a slow pass with my Three-truck Shay or the Climax and seeing all the action.

I can only speak for this 41 year old child.  While I never saw a steam engine in service, I prefer to play with scale steam engines.  Having never seen them did not make them less appealing to me.  I own 15 steam engines and only 4 diesels.  Steam engines are just cooler to me.  

When my boys were very young (3-4) yrs old they gravitated towards steam as I did when I was a kid.  And now they are 10 & 9 respectively and I asked them just now which they prefer and they said steam....my oldest said "it's because you can see it work"!   I think it comes down to seeing everything work, rods moving, steam and smoke from the stack, the sounds of the air pumps and of course the whistle.  My youngest is a HUGE lover of the 4449 while my oldest is a N&W and UP lover.  Steam is just a magical thing...all you steam lovers know what I mean.   One of my earliest experiences with steam was with Ross Rowland and the 614 on the Chessie Safety Express trips back in 80/81...what a sight.  That huge Greenbriar at speed flying towards and then past me....the smell of the coal smoke and so on.....oh that is a great memory for me. 

Think about it.  A steam engine has most of its moving parts on the outside for everyone to see.  All of the machines, computers, electronics, etc. today either have no moving parts or they are are the inside (like a diesel engine) and there is nothing to see.  In this sense a steam engine is unique and garners interest.

When I have people not familiar with railroading visit my layout, young and old, they are most attracted to the steam locomotives. Often they will point to a steam engine on the siding and ask, does that one sound and smoke like the other one running? I had one adult tell me that I had a neat looking coal car placed behind the steam engine.

My opinion is that the drivers, smoke, & sound of a steam locomotive is much more interesting to watch then a diesel. This may be the fact that apparently steam is outselling diesel locomotives. Sales dictate what is offered to consumers.    

So far, It seems that steam still rules. I am glad to read these posts and see that they are well thought out replies. I have to admit that I forgot about the wow factor of a steam versus diesel. It does make sense that there is a lot more to see and hear.

Diesels are for people too lazy to fill the smoke fluid.

Don't forget Disney and other Amusement Parks that run Steam engines. 

Paul:  My Grandkids, who are not rail fans by any means, can relate to a steam engine much more than a diseasel.   All of them have ridden behind steam in various museums, on the Cuyahoga Valley (behind the #765) out in Colorado on the Durango and Silverton, etc. 

None, that I'm aware of, have ridden on modern day Amtrak behind a diesel.  If they see a diesel engine, it's certainly pulling a freight train and that is not the least interesting for them.  Two summers ago we drove along hiway 30 for two days and saw well over 100 freight trains.  They would not even look up at them after a while.  No more interesting than watching semi-trucks barrel down the highway.  There's just no romance or art involved with modern day diesels or the trains they pull.  Not a lot of admiration for a slow moving train that blocks the intersection of a highway crossing they're trying to get over.  I think that it's a shame that  places like the Grand Canyon Railway or North Freedom, WI have eliminated steam from their tourist programs.  People do know the difference.

Might be the fact that they don't see a steam engine every day is what gives them that appeal.

Paul Fischer

I'm with the Majority here.

I have many Great Nieces, Great Nephews, and a few Grandchildren that watch my trains and play with them as they get old enough.

The 3 older ones have ridden excursions with me behind diesel engines.

By and Large, they prefer the Steam engines, even the latest 5 month old grand-daughter. She will watch the steam engine go by and make noises while a diesel gets ignored. (Yes, I have a couple such as the Phantom and Galloping geese)

The Phantom was interesting for a couple laps but them she was rolling over to ignore it.

fisch330, and several others have nailed it.  I have not heard much about some

tourist excursion trains that now operate diesels...dunno if they still operate.  First

thing I want to know about such trains as the Royal Gorge tourist run: "Is is steam

or diesel?"  "Diesel'.  Wrong answer...YAWN. Keep driving west to Chama and Durango. I have a couple of diesel sets (E,F, PA?) as old collectibles, but they are not run. 

I refer to modern diesel locomotives as "econobox diesels" as they have the styling

and personality of a Chevette, IMO. I do not and do not expect to own any models of

same. That is why the kids don't look.  Long trains of generic cars with often illegible

lettering don't hold my attention long, either .  Nary a billboard reefer in the consist. 

Diesel for the job...steam for the adventure !

The lesser evil of the two would be Diesel.      It's a shame that electric cannot be included.

Put me done for Electric. I ride the subway everyday. 

As a kid in the 60's and 70's, I had several train toys from little Midgetoy die-cast trains and Child Guidance trains and tracks to a Fisher-Price pull along floor toy train. They were all steam except one diesel switcher in the Midgetoy stuff. I see this a lot today in the toy departments. IF there are any kind of train toys more than likely they are toy steamers. Steam is still ingrained in America's mind when trains are mentioned. How many times do you see young parents saying "Choo Choo" to their toddlers when they see a train go by?

And another funny thing, if the toy train is supposed to be a diesel more than likely it's some EMD F or E unit looking thing or some first generation switcher. Even among diesel train toys, today's boxes on wheels still don't get to play.

Companies produce what consumers buy. Young people have all they can do to get a tow hold in this country, so it is the gray beard consumers ruling the market.

 I have noticed that almost everyone, almost all the time, prefers when the steam is running on my layout. The grandkids, in-laws, even my own brother..... 

 I prefer diesel! Modern!

  11 diesels with EMD prime mover wireless sound  does it for me..but i find my self following the 'steam posts' on a daily basis.

I perfer diesel!!!!  

At a modular set up running steam last August at the Chesterfield County Fair (Richmond VA), a kid (about 10) came up to us and asked..........when are you guys going to run some cool diesels?

needless to say, we were surprised!

Peter

Toy train steam locomotives are just more fun to watch. There is something relaxing about watching the running gear while the train circles the track. It is a visual experience that works without any fancy chuffing or sounds. I don't think age of the observer is a factor. It doesn't matter if you grew up with steam locomotives or not.

I do think the original poster has a point about more modern diesels such as the SD70ACe and the ES44AC, but I have some bias towards the idea as I've made a few posts on the forum asking for Lionel to make traditional or Lionmaster versions of the modern diesels. Thinking back to when I was a child, we were really into aircraft, and we were always going to the library to look at the latest copy of Aviation Week and Space Technology. We were interested in the new planes. I think some of that interest in new technology would transfer to any kids who are into trains today and they would want to see toy train versions of what they see out on the rails. This would be not only the big freight locomotives such as the SD70ACe and the ES44AC, but also some of the modern light rail commuter trains like the Sprinter.

But, I think people are always going to have the fascination with toy train steam locomotives, more so than any era of diesel locomotives.

I was thinking about this, if you think about it, as serious a piece of machinery that a steam engine was, a steam locomotive looks like a giant toy, with the sounds, the clanging bell, the motion of the various pieces, even the shape of the locomotive looks more like a toy of some sort

Also thinking a bit further on the subject:  Did you ever hear a parent tell his child: "Now watch for the Brrm-Brrm coming down the tracks!"  Wouldn't be the same if it weren't "Choo-Choo".  Much as I hate that term for trains, it does tell what people think about when they see or think of trains.

When my daughter was only two years old, we had a Collie dog which we named "Choo-choo".  To my daughter, a choo choo was a dog.  That thing that ran down the RR tracks was a "train".

Paul Fischer

I favor modern diesel locomotives. But like some of your grandchildren or visitors I enjoy watching steam locomotives at someone else’s expense. It is interesting to see the separately applied parts & working linkages on a steam locomotive that someone else has purchased & posted here on the forum or at a museum but when it comes time to spend my own money, I don’t find steam locomotives, box cars or cabooses interesting or important enough to purchase. I didn’t grow up in this country & I haven’t experienced Christmas tree layouts, Thomas the Train or Polar Express. But I commuted in electric trains every weekday & now I appreciate models of trains I currently see around town or seen during road trips.

These are just my opinion.

Naveen Rajan

I think both companies offer what sells and makes money for them.  Steamers do sell, even to young folks.  

Railroading is regarded as a hobby steeping in tradition, history, and the romance of long-age eras and so everyone thinks steam to some extent, plus the steamers are cool looking with a lot more moving "eye candy."  I have been in my LHS while young kids told their parents they wanted a steamer - not sure in all cases they knew what it was but they saw it moving in the store's display layout and wanted one.  Also the Harry Potter and Polar Express connections pretty much seal the steamer idea in everyone's head. 

I imagine that both companies sell a slightly lower proportion of steamers as follow-on sales to steamer-related RTR sets.  Mom and Dad and kids bring home a steam RTR, set it up and want to expand.  Then the kids demand something they actually see running no-a-days . . . 

Steam is a mechanical Marvel To all who view it it is perceived as a living breathing machine. The Sounds it makes are almost never heard unless you are at a tourist railroad IE Strausburg or the LIke.  As Lee stated above Model Railroading is steeped in Tradition and wonder of times long gone. 

While Diesels are the epitame of get in and turn a key start the engine and go it make a Reving sound like a Diesel Truck when it speeds up and slows down so alot of the younger generation equate it to a large truck hauling a load down the road there is no speciality or difference than the commonplace sightings of these running down the Tracks.

To this date My Personal Roster Includes 12 Steam engines and 3 Diesels and the only reason I have the Three Diesels is because my Ex Wife purchased me a Caterpillar Train set because I drove a Semi Truck with a Caterpillar Engine in it.  I had to purchase a second F40PH because the original engine had board troubles and I wound up getting a loco sound F40 to have something to pull this train around the Christmas Tree.I Also purchased a Premiere F40PH Alaska Dummy to have a second unit the only reason i got it was to do the guy at the Hobby shop a favor and take it off his hands at his going out of Business sale.

#1: Steam

#2: Electric- GGI

#3: See #1 and #2, above

Where do you live?  I'm 66, and I can clearly remember watching steam on the PRR mainline where we lived in the Fifties.  I even had the presence of mind to photograph some of it in 1956.

But as to your question, yes, I can easily go with the majority on this one.  Personal tastes differ, but steam locomotives are far more visually interesting.  They smoke, they whistle, and their moving parts are a whirlwind of mechanical complexity.  In fact, when I bought my 783, it didn't seem complete to me until I upgraded it to full working 700E valve gear.

Nothing against diesels -- I have a FM, a Baldwin Shark AA and an EMD SW2.  But they just don't have the eye-catching motion of my steam locomotives.  And visitors to my layout agree.

I love steam engines, but my model love is diesels.  My grandkids relate to seeing the same engines as they see on the real railroad and so do I.  The growl or engines sounds of modern diesels, especially when MU'ed, are very cool.  At night I listen to the engines strain as they climb the small grade a block from our house.  It is a local branch line but has 6 trains a day, 3 each way.  They are usually pulling 100 car trains of covered hoppers hauling silica sand for fracking.  One consist has 6 former BNSF engines on the front.

Art

I'm 67 and I barely remember steam along the main line in Philly. Yes I saw some small switchers a few times but main line steam was non-exsistant. 

As as far as my model trains I love big UP steam of which I have quite a few. The only diesels I have are the NS heritage units and Modern Santa Fe diesels. 

Think about it, the words "CHOO CHOO" are universal. Even kids who see my diesels referred to them as choo-choos.

Something very Freudian about this don't you think?

As long as the media raises our kids with locomotives like Thomas and the Polar Express, the trains our youth will fantasize about are steam locomotives.

I'm  66 years old and I was able to catch the tail end of steam in the late 40s and early 1950s.  I loved steam engines then and I still do.   I am so thankful that I had the opportunity to ride trains pulled by steam locomotives.  We used to take the train from Martinsburg, West Virginia to Philly and when riding on the B&O from Martinsburg to Washington, DC up until about 1954 or so we always had steam locos but when we changed trains at Washington for the remainder of the ride to Philly we always had the GG1s.  Even at the tender age of seven I was disappointed when the B&O started using Diesels. 

As far as little kids today are concerned whenever children are at our house they almost always prefer to see the steam locomotives run rather than diesels.  I don't doubt with all that exterior action they are just more fun to watch.

Diesel vastly outnumber steam on my roster.

I have a preference for later generation and contemporary railroading, so hood diesels, such as SD40s, SD40-2s, SD45s, GP40s, GP60s in addition to "safety cab"  hoods like Dash 9s, SD70ACes, etc as well as switchers like the NW-2s, SW1500s and MP15ACs.  As I am also an SP fan I am also particularly fond of the "tunnel motors" so I have a few SD45T-2s.   So in addition to the more modern rolling stock, most of my locomotive roster reflects that.

The few steam engines I have are a scale GS4 (pulling GGD scale Daylight cars), a couple of scale Cab Forwards (pull the Daylight in addition to PFE steel & woodside reefers) and a few postwar Lionel steamers like the 685, 2055, & 2026.

Most movies made use steam engines; I can think of two right now that featured diesel: Runaway Train with John Voigt, and the more recent Denzel Washington flick, the name escapes me, which was a little far fetched.

Most rail excursions feature steam locomotion, and many rail preservation sites feature a lot of steam. The whistle, bell, steam blow off, water dripping from pipes and valves, the opening and closing of the fire box to feed the hungry beast, these are what provide the magic. A diesel is utilitarian, and most folks are disappointed upon learning that the steam locomotive had to be replaced with a diesel on the fall foliage tour. I'll take steam!

Don

Nothing against steam engines but I am all diesel , mainly do operations / switching and first gen Alco diesels are my favorite.     When I hear an early Alco diesel start up - it is a thrill  -same feeling steamers get when they hear a steam engine start to move I bet!!  You do what you love that is model railroading.

Now you've done it, you've mentioned diesel movies.  Unstoppable is the Denzel Washington movie.

Other movies using diesels off the top of my head:

Silver Streak (1934)

Silver Streak (1976)

Night Freight (1955)

Human Desire (1954)

Atomic Train (1999, terrible MFTV movie)

Disaster on the Coastliner (1997, another terrible MFTV movie)

North by Northwest (1959)

Bad Day at Black Rock (1959)

There's also the train wreck in The Fugitive and the two diesels that rammed the helicopter at the end of Blue Thunder.

Edit: Couple more came to mind:

IRM's Nebraska Zephyr made an appearance in A League of their Own (1992) and their ex-BN SD24 had a cameo in Bill Murray's Groundhog Day (1993.)

Then there was Cassandra Crossing(1976,) which shifted between diesel and electric locomotion.

Also: End of the Line(1987)

I'm sure others will chime in...

Rusty