The following 3rd Rail items have been cancelled

@rdunniii Any word on the second run of Viewliner cars? @sdmann

I’m sorry for those that wanted those models ……

Good question on the Viewliners.  While I have all I need, I would like to add some Phase VI Amfleet cars to my collection to fill out the train. 

There is a chance they may run with the Superliners.  Only Scott can confirm that, but Superliners aren't too far off in the distance.  A few passenger trains ahead of those first though.

@GG1 4877 posted:

Good question on the Viewliners.  While I have all I need, I would like to add some Phase VI Amfleet cars to my collection to fill out the train.

There is a chance they may run with the Superliners.  Only Scott can confirm that, but Superliners aren't too far off in the distance.  A few passenger trains ahead of those first though.

Thanks Jonathan! That would be wonderful if the Viewliners could just latch onto the Superliner run and they all come around the same time, an Amtrakapalooza! Hopefully Scott ( @sdmann) will see this and give us his insights.

--Nick N.

Raleigh, NC

@PiedmontNick posted:

Thanks Jonathan! That would be wonderful if the Viewliners could just latch onto the Superliner run and they all come around the same time, an Amtrakapalooza! Hopefully Scott ( @sdmann) will see this and give us his insights.

--Nick N.

Raleigh, NC

Amtrak is definitely destined to see some love here soon.  Soon being in the next couple of years.

FM Erie Builts with square windshields!!! C’mon!!!

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

FM Erie Builts with square windshields!!! C’mon!!!

FM Erie-Builts would Be Wonderful !!!!!!!

The Big Road names had these !!!! Should attract some Good Reservation #s 🤔🤔

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

FM Erie Builts with square windshields!!! C’mon!!!

Who had the squares as opposed to the rounded uppers ???

Any word on SD40-2 or SD7/9?

@Greg Amer posted:

Any word on SD40-2 or SD7/9?

SD40-2 is going through the final QAQC prior to tooling being cut.  Like every 3rd Rail project, it is never as simple as it seems at first so there have been several revisions to design drawings.

Not sure on SD7/9s.

EMD FP-45?  I heard these will probably never get off the ground, either.

@SANTIAGOP23 posted:

FM Erie Builts with square windshields!!! C’mon!!!

Olympian for me !!!!

Let's not forget the DRGW Prospector.  The only other time they were made (to my knowledge) was at $1000 per car.  Let's get those reservations in.

Regards,

Ed

@TrainBub posted:

Olympian for me !!!!

I have an A-B-B-A set of the Atlas Olympian Hiawatha FM Erie Builts from the early 2000s (two powered and two dummies).  While it doesn't approach the detail that the new 3rd Rail diesel offerings have, once you dump the lobster claws, it's pretty well done and looks killer with my GGD Hiawatha cars, so for me, it's "good enough" and I doubt I'd trade up (if anything, I'd transplant Legacy guts from recent Lionel FM Train Masters into the two powered units, or more likely keep them as-is and power the dummies to get two independent pairs, as the dummies are geared if I am remembering correctly).

I'd personally like to see the Alco PAs run again.  I'd probably be in for an A-B pair of D&RGW four-stripes and a pair of NYC, unless they pop up on the secondary market first.

Scott had a lot more to say that just what the OP had to say.  From his email this morning:

“The future for us is Diesels and Aluminum car projects. We may revist some of our Plastic HW cars in the future, but production is difficult with that builder.“

The way I read his email, he has had to get out of the highly detailed market because of escalating costs.  It sounded to me like 3rd rail is a thing of the past and the future will be with the Sunset line.  With Covid, inflation and the political tension with China, I am not surprised.  The same pressures may also be affecting Lionel.  With K-line, Weaver, and MTH gone and Scott adjusting his business model, the future for affordable highly detailed O gauge trains does not look good.  We will just have to see.  

Scott, if I misread what you had to say, please correct me.

The political friction with China is worrisome, re our o scale models.  Perhaps production can revert to Korea.

My vote for a replacement steam locomotive, for those cancelled, would be the Rock Island 5100 series 4-8-4. The Rock Island ran to many major cities west of Chicago and their 4-8-4's mingled with Union Pacific, Burlington, Rio Grande, Southern Pacific and Santa Fe locomotives in various stations and terminals, as a few examples.  Hence an awful lot of modelers could justify the inclusion of one of these very handsome locomotives on their roster. And the big red herald on the tender should hold great appeal. The scratch built RI 4-8-4 displayed at last year's Chicago O Scale Meet attracted much interest.

Does someone have a copy of this email they can post in full and share on here?...I'd think it'd be very beneficial to all.

Received this morning:

Dear Valued Sunset Models Customers:

You've done what we ask. You've reserved models that you wish to purchase if they are made.

Unfortunately, we don't always get enough reservations to begin the Design, Tooling and Production process for some projects.

The GE Dash 9 Diesel has only 80 reservations. We need a minimum of 250 to make it.

The Sierra 38 is very long in the tooth and with only 75 reservations, it's not possible to produce it at even double the price it was announced.

The SP MM3 and WP 206 Steam Engine only had 40 reservation each version. Each version was completely different, making it impossible to do either or both. Reservations were about 50% of what we would need to consider production.

The NYC R-2 had 150 reservations, but these reservations are more than 7 years old. So they are no longer valid. The cost of making this model has doubled or tripled since we announced it.

I can tell when a project is going to fly, right away. We will get a big flurry of reservations, questions and comments in the first weeks of the announcement. Other projects, the reservations just dribble in.

The last thing I want to do is disappoint my good customers. So I am sorry to have to cancel these.

The projects that remain on our web site are in the planning or even the design phase. We plan to move forward with each one.

The future for us is Diesels and Aluminum car projects. We may revist some of our Plastic HW cars in the future, but production is difficult with that builder.

Keep your eyes on our web site and let us know if there is something you desire. Sometimes that alone gets a project off the ground.

Best Regards,

Scott Mann

@David Johnston posted:

Scott, if I misread what you had to say, please correct me.

This definitely not how the email was intended.  Diesels and passenger cars are still highly detailed.  The amount of detail that goes into a diesel project is extensive, it just is not as obvious as a steam locomotive.  Passenger cars have come a long way with better quality trucks, more refined extrusions, and interiors that have multiple colors to more closely replicate the prototype.   The upcoming Eagle project is a good example of pushing the envelope on an aluminum car with rivets being available for the first time which opens up the possibility for several other trains that had similar details.

What the email does state is that there are some projects that seemed promising when announced, however there just wasn't enough buyer interest to move forward on them.  It happens in this industry and all the manufacturers have cancelled projects from time to time.  I was in for an MTH 3/2 CNJ Train Master that never made it past the pre-order stage.  The same could be said for the E60 from both MTH and 3rd Rail.  Scott is first and foremost a businessperson which is why the business is still successful with newly tooled models in a land of reissued models using existing tooling.  Not much new tooling from Lionel, none from MTH, and none from Atlas. 

The SD40-2 sat in the que for five years and it will be going into production this year.  Amfleet cars took 5 years to come to fruition.  These projects take time to generate the orders which is just the reality of the O scale marketplace.  Some get enough orders while others don't.  I personally wouldn't read anything more into this announcement. 

Keep in mind that the 3rd Rail business model is entirely customer driven.  If enough customers preorder a model, it gets built.  A very straight forward and market driven approach to manufacturing trains.

It's a shame, just as I'm at the point where I can afford a nice brass steam model every once in a while is the same time they're all drying up. Glad I got in a reservation for the H-10.

I wouldn't say switching to primarily diesels and passenger cars is the end of 3rd Rail, it's just that the demographics of our hobby finally caught up with economics; very few people still alive remember the steam era well.

What I would like to see, if steam locomotives will be few and far between, is some nice freight equipment. I have two of the Battleship Gondolas and love them. What I think would be a home run, and I would buy several of, is the original "State of Maine" XIH boxcars (like these that Eastern Seaboard Models has just done in HO: Eastern Seaboard Models Corporation (esmc.com) ). These cars originated the Bangor and Aroostook's famous Red-White-Blue boxcar scheme, wore the same scheme for the New Haven, and could be seen across the country (leased to Pacific Fruit Express in the Maine potato off season). Could also be done in repaints and for successor railroads (Penn Central, Conrail). Anyway, that's my pitch if Scott sees this thread.

~Chris

@C.Vigs posted:

It's a shame, just as I'm at the point where I can afford a nice brass steam model every once in a while is the same time they're all drying up. Glad I got in a reservation for the H-10.

I did not receive this morning's email, but I hadn't pre-ordered any of the cancelled items either. Makes me wonder if the H-10 will be able to squeak across the finish line.

@C.Vigs posted:

It's a shame, just as I'm at the point where I can afford a nice brass steam model every once in a while is the same time they're all drying up. Glad I got in a reservation for the H-10.

I wouldn't say switching to primarily diesels and passenger cars is the end of 3rd Rail, it's just that the demographics of our hobby finally caught up with economics; very few people still alive remember the steam era well.

What I would like to see, if steam locomotives will be few and far between, is some nice freight equipment. I have two of the Battleship Gondolas and love them. What I think would be a home run, and I would buy several of, is the original "State of Maine" XIH boxcars (like these that Eastern Seaboard Models has just done in HO: Eastern Seaboard Models Corporation (esmc.com) ). These cars originated the Bangor and Aroostook's famous Red-White-Blue boxcar scheme, wore the same scheme for the New Haven, and could be seen across the country (leased to Pacific Fruit Express in the Maine potato off season). Could also be done in repaints and for successor railroads (Penn Central, Conrail). Anyway, that's my pitch if Scott sees this thread.

~Chris

I doubt demographics and interest in steam has anything to do with it. Scale steam has become extremely expensive in the last 3-4 years, especially brass models. Around 2015ish, a Lionel 4-8-4 would set you back around $1200 with Legacy. A brass 4-8-4 model from 3rd rail would be around $1600. These days a Lionel model is running $1800-2000 and brass is $3000 or more. Most hobbyists can’t afford these prices. The few that can, are generally going to have particular interests, especially those who are buying brass. This combo makes it hard to get enough reservations to make a project fly.

The other problem is 3rd Rail has already built many nice brass steam models over the last 25 years. Scott does not tend to reissue a previous model. There aren’t too many more steam locomotives that have a broad enough appeal to generate enough reservations.

I myself am a big SP guy and am young at the age of 36. Most of the SP models that 3rd Rail produced came out before I could afford to buy them. The only model I was able to buy new when it was released was an MT-5 which was $1200 and was released around 2010. Took me awhile to save the money. These days I am actively hunting down a number of models produced between 1995 and 2015 that I could only dream of owning when they were new. When I think of SP steam that Scott hasn’t done that I would want (and be willing to pay the price), I can’t think of much; maybe a 4-8-0 but I don’t know I’d want to spend around $2800 on one. The MM-3 that got cancelled would have been cool to have but I wasn’t willing to pay the price. I was considering it at the $2500 price they were originally announced at. When the price jumped to $3500 last year, that killed it for me. There are many other models I would rather have before I spend $3500 on an MM-3.

@rdunniii posted:

Due to lack of reservations.

Dash 9s

Sierra 38

SP MM# and WP206 Steam locomotives

NYC R-1

Unfortunate, but numbers as what they are.  The Sierra engine was interesting, but a 2-4-4-2 would have been something that I could have gotten behind a lot easier.

Hi,

Great suggestions. We will rerun the Amfleet / Viewliners with the Superliners late this year.

We need to run the Transition car from the El Capitan for the Superliners, so we will also offer a rerun of the Elcaps.

We will do reruns of E7, PAs, possibly FTs and FL9 in the coming years.

The NYC H-10 is a done deal. I have enough firm orders to make 80 units. The builder quoted a price and that's what set the retail price. Design has begun. Probably an early 2024 delivery.

Thank you all for your support now and many years ago.  As long as you want these models, we will make them.

My Best,

Scott Mann

I have one 3rd Rail steamer, not from a popular east coast road.  Not interested in diesels.  Future does not sound good.

@sdmann posted:

Hi,

Great suggestions. We will rerun the Amfleet / Viewliners with the Superliners late this year.

We need to run the Transition car from the El Capitan for the Superliners, so we will also offer a rerun of the Elcaps.

We will do reruns of E7, PAs, possibly FTs and FL9 in the coming years.

The NYC H-10 is a done deal. I have enough firm orders to make 80 units. The builder quoted a price and that's what set the retail price. Design has begun. Probably an early 2024 delivery.

Thank you all for your support now and many years ago.  As long as you want these models, we will make them.

My Best,

Scott Mann

Thanks Scott for this “Heads Up” commentary !!!!  Its great for us to view what you believe is the future trajectory of projects !!!  It sure Helps me plan my Future Budget !!!!!!!

Any ETA on the genesis or chargers? Don't mean to be pushy just excited for those

@DashingDanLIRR posted:

Any ETA on the genesis or chargers? Don't mean to be pushy just excited for those

I asked Scott about the Genesis a few weeks ago, his response from 1/14/23 (edit: previously had year wrong, it was 2023, not 2022) is below:

"We are getting started on design and should finish production late
this year. Possibly late year or early next year delivery."

I already have the elcap but would be in for 2 sf transition cars if they are offered separately.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

I doubt demographics and interest in steam has anything to do with it. Scale steam has become extremely expensive in the last 3-4 years, especially brass models.

I suspect demographics has something to do with it.  Both are probably true along with other factors as you point out.  Ryan Kunkle from Lionel said they sell more diesels relative to steam every year.  Whatever the reason: demographics, costs, market saturation, etc., the steam market has gone down recently.  I'm a diesel man.  E7's, PA's, FT's?  Yes, please.

@TrainBub posted:

Who had the squares as opposed to the rounded uppers ???

Square "B-24" windshield:

• Union Pacific
• Milwaukee Road
• Kansas City Southern

Rounded upper edge windshield:

• Union Pacific
• Milwaukee Road
• Chicago & North Western (Omaha Road)
• Kansas City Southern
• Santa Fe
• New York Central (passenger & freight paint schemes)
• Pennsylvania (passenger & freight paint schemes)

@MikeH posted:

I suspect demographics has something to do with it.  Both are probably true along with other factors as you point out.  Ryan Kunkle from Lionel said they sell more diesels relative to steam every year.  Whatever the reason: demographics, costs, market saturation, etc., the steam market has gone down recently.  I'm a diesel man.  E7's, PA's, FT's?  Yes, please.

Not sure I agree with the steam market going down.  Look at the popularity of the Big Boy.  Literally millions of people have come out to see the real #4014 in person.  Lionel ran a very expensive Vision Line version just a few years ago and are already running it again for 2023.  I read that the LCCA limited run of the upcoming version already had dozens of pre-orders signed up.  At a minimum, Lionel must be selling many hundreds of them.  Lionel is re-using the tooling and most of the electronics, and just doing a few new paint jobs and features, so my guess at well over $2k a pop retail they are bringing in a nice profit.  Their other Legacy steam engines are popular too, and retain their high prices if resold on the secondary market.

I focus on Eastern roads, but buy and run what I like.  E.g., no way I was going to pass on the GGD Olympian Hiawatha after I missed it the first time around.  I'm probably in for an El Cap set too because who knows if something like that will ever be made again.  I have really grown fond of all of the streamlined diesels that 3rd Rail and others have modeled.  Part of that is the historian in me, and that's why I love steam, too (and electrics).

If you like it (and it's in your budget), I say get it!  The 3rd Rail Alco PAs are all gorgeous and I'm looking forward to adding a number of them.

@Number 90 posted:

Square "B-24" windshield:

• Union Pacific
• Milwaukee Road
• Kansas City Southern

Rounded upper edge windshield:

• Union Pacific
• Milwaukee Road
• Chicago & North Western (Omaha Road)
• Kansas City Southern
• Santa Fe
• New York Central (passenger & freight paint schemes)
• Pennsylvania (passenger & freight paint schemes)

Thanks for this FM Erie Built information !!!!  😉  
The freight variant info also appreciated. 👍👍👍

@Ryan Selvius posted:

The other problem is 3rd Rail has already built many nice brass steam models over the last 25 years. Scott does not tend to reissue a previous model. There aren’t too many more steam locomotives that have a broad enough appeal to generate enough reservations.

I strongly disagree with this statement. The amount of steam produced in our scale is negligible with the amount that has been produced in HO. It is also not representative in any way or form of the plethora of possibilities from prototype history.

The challenge I see with steam locomotives in O scale is the fact that there are so many prototypes that have not been done.  This results in not getting enough people to agree on a single prototype to get it into design and production. 

There are lots of steam locomotives I'd love to see done right but like everyone else's wishes, they probably don't have enough traction (pun intended) to ever get mass produced.

Why not offer some of the USRA wheel arrangements. Used by a lot of railroads.

@Purplepapa posted:

Why not offer some of the USRA wheel arrangements. Used by a lot of railroads.

Well, USRA "wheel arrangements" is one thing but, actual USRA models would generally limit the modeler to the late 19 teens through the late 1920s. Many more modelers seem to desire the more modern "Super Power" era steam locomotives of the 1930s through the late 1940s.

@GG1 4877 posted:

The challenge I see with steam locomotives in O scale is the fact that there are so many prototypes that have not been done.  This results in not getting enough people to agree on a single prototype to get it into design and production.

There are lots of steam locomotives I'd love to see done right but like everyone else's wishes, they probably don't have enough traction (pun intended) to ever get mass produced.

Well stated.

@Yves posted:

I can list two models that will never get any traction, unfortunately . I like to mention them on this forum, from time to time:

1) ATSF M-190, probably the most beautiful doodlebug ever produced.

I have contacted Scott Mann about these two models, but his answer was that there is not enough demand.

OK, Yves.   I understand Scott's then-rationale...maybe.

But the market and 3rd Rail's more recent demonstrated finesse of non-steam locomotives AND passenger cars/trains presents an opportunity to take another swing at 'The Old Pelican', her (at least) 3 different paint jobs, and her 'train'.

So, perhaps there would be more attraction if she were done as a complete 'train'...Doodlebug AND trailer car(s).  Your photo is spot on for probably her last scheduled use, the Carlsbad (N.M.) Turn.  That streamlined observation car (one of 3 commonly used behind M-190) was originally from one of the early 'Chief' trains.

But there are lots of photos in John McCall's book, The Doodlebugs, that show M-190 through her years in different paint schemes pulling a variety of trailer cars.

Of course, there were others in ATSF's Doodlebug fleet...like M-160, a 2-truck (non-articulated) more common style.  Here, again, throughout its life it had different paint schemes, pulling different trailer cars...one of which was that observation car seen in the photo above.

Now, I know other railroads used 'Doodlebug' self-propelled cars, many of which had their trailing cars, some combinations even graced with special train names.   But the Santa Fe still holds an extra measure of popularity in the hobby marketplace.   I know it's getting harder for new projects to garner sufficient commitments, but maybe the concept of a Doodlebug train might be worth another try??

Just a thought...

KD