The Greatest Layout Ever

Thanks for the link. Amazing work!!

I know he was an inspiration to me every time I saw his layout featured in the many books I used to wear out at the library in my feckled youth.  A legend for sure.  Nice thought.  It made me remember the wonder I had for all of this.  And it's only getting better.  

I remember seeing this layout in Model Railroader.  I always dreamed of creating one like it but I don't think anyone will ever come close to this absolutely beautiful layout   The way the scenery went from floor to ceiling and the numerous bridges made this unique

Don...thanks for reminding us of John Allen's terrific layout...wish it could have been saved!

I can see how he influenced you Don, he had a grand vision, big landscape not dominated by the railway, it's lovely stuff.

I remember a magazine my father had, probably from the late 50's which featured a magnificently landscaped American O gauge layout in  glossy color. I used to mull over these images for hours, over years. It showed the same sort of thing, beautiful landscape, realistic waterside lake scenes, my  memory of it still inspires what I want to do some time.

Two of the things that impressed me about this layout were the size of the initial one (about 3 1/2 by 6) and that he incorporated it into the final product.  I also love picking up my copy of the book.  I always find something new to like.

I agree , John Allen was a master modeler and I also enjoy The Franklin and South Manchester RR it is a 23ft by 42ft HO scale layout and is the work of George Sellios.

http://www.horailroad.com/fsm/fsmlayout0.html

When I was a teenager looking at the pics of John Allen's layout in the magazines, I thought he must have been a real wizard (not just a nickname) to accomplish such a fantastic creation as the Gorre & Daphetid. Floor-to-ceiling scenery, trains running all over the place, super-detailed scenes. Such a shame that it was destroyed by fire barely a year after John's death. 

I rarely post on the forum but thought those of you interested in John Allen's work would like to know a new expanded hardcover edition of Model Railroading with John Allen by Linn H. Westcott is available from Micro-Mark.  I received a copy for my birthday and compared it to a copy from a local library.  The new edition has 16 more pages and is printed on heavier paper.  Also, the pictures are brighter.  It's a very nice book and I'm really enjoying it.

Micro-Mark's price is $59.95 and they had a free shipping offer if you ordered at least $75.00 of merchandise.  I think the free shipping offer expires April 3.  This compares very favorably with the copies offered by Amazon: New-$383.30, Used-$57.50 and Collectible-$68.00.

As a kid I was amazed by J. Allen's work and still am.

I'm 99% certain I still have my Model Railroader issue from the '80s that featured Allen's layout.  Truly a great layout.

John Allen's layout was truely one of the all time best layouts ever built, but for me the greatest ever built was Frank Elison's Delta Lines. For the time frame that it was built and was operated, it was a master peace. Just my thoughts!  Bill

When I saw "The Greatest Layout Ever" my immediate thought was that German layout! 

I too have read many books and seen many photos of John Allen's layout and am always blown away. I would have loved to have a chance to see it. Are there any photos of it post-fire? 

Don:  I agree; John Allen's layout was an inspiration.  But it did make me realize that with my limited talents, there was no way that I could have done anything like that!  As to his sense of humor; I remember seeing a sway-backed box car that he had built, obviously from scratch, because the center of the car was significantly lower than the ends.  Each part of the car had to have been made with the curves to produce the result. 

But the really funny thing was that he had a "brakeman" model guy that would have been a 400+ pounder standing on the roof as if he was the cause of the cars noticeable sag.  He even had a name for some of his characters on the layout.

Wasn't there a book written about John Allen's layout and the articles that he had written for MR b ack in the days?

Paul Fischer

The German layout is certainly huge and very innovative, but when it comes to individual creativity that truly captures the essence of early American railroading, I don't place it in the same league as John Allen's G&D.

I recall seeing a couple of post-fire photos at one time in the past, but there really was very little to see.  I'm probably one of the few who wasn't terribly distressed that the layout was destroyed by accidental causes after John's death.  I guess I don't feel that anyone else could or would have preserved and perpetuated it in quite the way John would have envisioned.  Buy now it probably would have been dispersed to the winds in a manner similar to what happened to Frank Ellison's layout, among others.

I think Bruce Chubb's Sunset Valley RR and Lorell Joiner's Great Southern were 2 of the finest layouts I've ever seen in a magazine.

I think the first issue of Model Railroading I got had the Sunset Valley in it and all I could do was stare at those photos.

I can't recall for sure, but it seems like Joiner's O-scale RR was in a 60'x60' building!!!

Here's a link to info about the John Allen book from Kalmbach:

http://www.amazon.com/Model-Ra...-Allen/dp/0890245592

My recommendation, though, would be to buy the same book, in an expanded edition, which is currently available from Benchmark Publications for $63.95 (still not cheap for a 160 page book).  Go to www.bobhayden.com for info.

George Selios now carries the torch originated by John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid with his Franklin & South Manchester. I hope I have every issue of MR with a F&SM article in it.  Both layouts are brilliant, but so is John Armstrong's Canandaigua Southern, which possibly is the most influential model railroad ever.

There was an article in OGR run 236, June/July 2009, called "Environmental Kinetic Sculpture in O Gauge." Not really a model railroad, this layout stands as a marvelous  example of out of the box thinking. The scenery and the suspended "invisible bridges" are absolutely spectacular. It's another of my favorites for sure.

Pete

Allen's G&D was the first model railroad that I wanted to 'copy'. The vertical scenery, fantastic structures and the wonderful locos and rolling stock inspired this then kid!

The G&D made me move from the circle of O-27 on plywood to wanting to build a scale world.

Don,

Thanks for reminding me of such inspirational years in the hobby when I grew up reading Model Railroader magazine each month.  All of the names mentioned thus far in this thread send me back in time, and it was a time when "printed media" was THE way in which information was communicated. 

I kept many of those Model Railroader magazines that featured John Allen's G&D as well as Bruce Chubb's Sunset Valley.  (I also have the Kalmbach book that Allan referenced about John Allen too.)  I guess I'd view John as a very special creative type... setting the stage for those of us today who are turning entire basements into miniature worlds of wonder.  Floor-to-ceiling scenery -- at least in a residential setting -- was somewhat of a novelty back then, and I pretty much equate John Allen with that concept.  Bruce, on the other hand, was a different type of "wizard"... one who pioneered the use of modern-day electronics in our hobby -- although the many articles that MR featured on the Sunset Valley could equally inspire wonderful scenery and operating techniques as well. 

As a teenager, I still remember building my first walk-around throttle, the TAT IV (featured in MR), and always wondered as I got older when that same type of control system (which featured ultra-smooth slow-speed control for switching; real-world momentum control and breaking effects; etc...)  would make its way into the world of O-Gauge trains.  And here we are some 30+ years later, and it's here for us in the form of DCS and Legacy!   What took them so long??? 

Yes... for those of us who grew up in a world when "print media" was king, names like John Allen, John Armstrong, Frank Ellison, Linn Wescott, Bruce Chubb and others will always have special meaning when we let our minds drift into the world of model railroading.  I guess guys new to the hobby nowadays -- both young and old -- will have a completely different experience in that we've become such a multi-media based society.  For whatever reason, print media seemed to lend itself more to only a "select few" being featured, whereas today's various forms of media (including this forum right here) have the ability to feature a much wider variety of creative types in a much more compressed time-frame.  Or so it would seem.

Not taking anything away from the pedestals on which we place the earlier mentioned "legends"... just making an observation that there are actually LOTS of wonderfully talented folks out there in this hobby, and today's forms of media allow their work to be become quickly "well-known" by a much larger audience than ever before.

David

Ditto here. Seeing that layout prompted me to sell my Lionel set and get into HO back in the late '50s. John's layout was featured many times over the years in Model Railroader. One of my regrets was not knocking on his door in 1972 when I was on my first cross country motorcycle trip.

Pete

When I was seven years old I received my first Model Raolroader, a 1970 issue with the Gorre & Daphetid on the cover. It has helped to inspire me ever since. John Allen was truly amazing, a pioneer. His work with mirrors always fascinated me, actually everyting he did was truly amazing. Legends are never forgottten just admired and emulated.

All the best,

Miketg

There were series articles on the G&D in both Model Railroader and RMC a while back.  The layout was in the basement and I doubt that much of anything would have survived the fire.  John Allen was a pioneer in the use of front surface mirrors to expand areas of the layout and create incredible illusions of depth.  Some of the mirrors were quite large and incorporated elements of "matte" painting (scenic elements are painted onto the glass) to further disguise them.

One more thing that made the layouts of John Allen and Frank Ellison so amazing to me is that they were built before the days of easy-to-use acrylic paints and modern adhesives - also no Woodland Scenics and Scenic Express to provide realistically colored scenic materials. These gentlemen produced their art in the dyed sawdust era - amazing by any standards.

Jim

That's an example of what made these gentlemen the pioneers and legends of their day.

David

Thanks Just ordered that and of course when on Micro Marks page its never a problem to get enough to qualify for free shipping

not much at all , but luckily there were some salvageable items.  the 2nd Timesaver module is currently on display at the San Diego Model RR Museum along with a damaged, but recognizable structure off the G&D layout and a few other artifacts and pictures of John's modeling work.

cheers...gary

A few of the engines were saved but partly melted. Don

I somehow missed Casco's earlier post about the book available from Micro-Mark.  Definitely a deal worth pursuing (and better than either of the two links I provided) if you don't already have that book.

Here's another John Allen creation from the San Diego RR Museum.

Peter. 

It takes a certain kind of person to do a layout like that. I guess we all start off with that kind of commitment  but only a very few ever stay with it. The John Allens and the
Norm Charbonneau's are a breed all their own alot of people try for that level of realism but very few ever achieve it. Me included.

David

I love the Green Hill and Atlantic built by Robert Sherman's friend Walt Hill and seen in the Lionel book, "Model railroading." Walt Hill built the unfinished house in the 1950 showroom layout. Another great railroad- now gone- is the HO Virginian and Ohio.

Hi Don, thanks for bringing the great John Allen's name back to the forefront of our thoughts. I think John Allen was the major bar setter for the great scenery products we enjoy today. JA taught the toy train world the meaning of detail.

When I first started to build my layout many years ago I made an attempt to incorporate his "Time Saver" switching game that is showed above in Gary's post, into my track plan.

Considering my real estate short comings it looks ok, but it's there as a tribute more then anything else.

I ran there several times and there are so many stories that should be told that arn't documented anywhere it is a shame.  I.E. he ground up mica and mixed with clear and top coated all of his rock casting so they would reflect / refract light better.  Flash photos were NOT allowed, all of the pix you see were color corrected room light.  Before electronic throttles he had momentem throttles.  You turned the knob and that turned on a motor with a big flywheel that drove a second motor that acted as a generator that ran the train.  Instead of amp meters he had count down counters so when you left the yard you would reset the counter to say 10000 if that was the capacity of your tender and off you would go.  As you ran the counter would keep track of your water usage and you would be looking for the next water tower.  If you ran out your train would stop and you would get the 'evil eye' from John.  And then of course there is always 'dino 13' that worked at the mill hauling logs.  Loved the layout and loved the man!  Russ

John Allen certainly had dramatic mountain scenery (larger than life in some ways) but for railroads that are or were pioneering, well-balanced, and comprehensive in doing most things excellently, I'd give first place to Frank Ellison's Delta Lines in New Orleans closely followed by Dr. Bruce Chubb's current Sunset Valley Oregon System in Grand Rapids, Michigan.  The Sunset Valley will be open during this summer's NMRA convention in Grand Rapids and (to me) by itself is worth attending the convention for.

I will say that when you get into the HO layouts the scenery is in a class by itself.
I've seen some that just plain defy description . Hand made engines and rolling stock with so much detail that Kohs would drool with envy . Hand laid track and switches by the mile. Huge layouts with no plastic buildings and awesome detail.
If you ever want Ideas go to http://www.h0scale.com/defaulteng.htm
Look at their gallery some of the stuff boggles the mind.

David

In 1963 my Dad (20 yrs old at the time) went to John Allen's house - He was not home

He says it was near Monterey High school.

I received John's G&D book as a Christmas book shortly after it was published, and I must have read it cover to cover a dozen times. I re-read it again before starting my current layout, and once again discovered new few ideas and hints.

Jim wrote,

"One more thing that made the layouts of John Allen and Frank Ellison so amazing to me is that they were built before the days of easy-to-use acrylic paints and modern adhesives - also no Woodland Scenics and Scenic Express to provide realistically colored scenic materials. These gentlemen produced their art in the dyed sawdust era - amazing by any standards."

Followed by David's comment -

"Hand laid track and switches by the mile."

And these accomplishments alone are a great inspiration for dedication and a lot of patience.

Good thread - thank you, Don!

Alex

My love and study of John Allen and George Sellios work has made me the detail person that Iam. They are telling a story with each scene and that is what I have tried to do. And their RR does not dominate in any scene just like the prototype. And as many have mentioned others let's not forget Whit Towers Alturas and Lone Pine, The South Shasta Lines, Bill McClanahan and his development of scenery techniques on his Western RR and Allen McClelland's V and O RR, all standard setters in this hobby. On my Bellevue and Schenectady RR I have at Rotterdam Junction a model of John Allen's Cross Junction Station built by Mike Lynch, a two level station with I believe great charm.

John's work was almost closer to a new form of art than it was simply a layout as he stretched the concept beyond a 4X8 flat surface that breathed life into more dimensions  than I can count. He certainly was one of the founding fathers along with Ellison's operational innovations and the work of Mr Armstrong on prototype layout design. The only minor caveat to this is that his work sometimes seems overly weathered, or even to the point of being ramshackle beyond believability. A minor one to be sure. Its a shame it was destroyed but than again it helps the bolster the legend of the great lost layout, which it certainly is. As far as being influenced by it, I would have to say, not directly in terms of the specific layout that is while it is drop dead gorgeous, it seemed to have a strong flavor of exaggerated topography, but as far as details, it was light years before it's time.