@Silver Lake posted:I don’t know what you mean by out of scale. They were selling full size casts of the skeleton of the real life model for the “o-scale" #145 Gateman” this year at Home Depot. Just build a crossing shack around him and put a lantern in his hand.
I don’t see the problem with the toy version. They are called toy trains.
Every once in a while, I see something which I cannot understand why ANYONE would want, or buy it... that definitely qualifies...
@Mannyrock posted:Well then Kooljock, it sounds as if I was correct. Lionel retained ownership of its name and merely licensed it to General Mills when it sold them its other assets. (A lease of an intellectual property right is called a license.)
But here is the sad part. When the owner of a tradename (such as Lionel Company) licenses a tradename to a manufacturer (such as General Mills), the licensor must and does retain a final right of approval, in the license agreement, as to the quality, condition, and design of the products upon which the tradename will be displayed or stamped, as well as the manner and mode of how the tradename will appear in marketing material. Why? Because if the do not retain this right of approval, then the license is regarded as a "naked license", which means that the licensee could slap the name on any type of product, of any type of quality, it desired (no matter how junky), and use the tradename in advertising, in any manner or mode it desired. If this happens, then the tradename becomes worthless and generic. Eventually, it is regarded as available for public use.
So, sadly, Lionel company gave its final approval to General Mills, on all of the cheapened products it made. Why did they do this? Because Lionel needed those royalty payments for each item sold, and if they were too tough on standards with General Mills, then General Mills would just stop using the license and stop paying the royalties.
In most of these types of instances, to get the approval, the licensee would send to the licensor a package with the final design and products specs, and the proposed advertising materials, and the licensor would give it a "quick once over", make a few small suggestions for corrections, and then after the corrections are made, grant its approval for to the licensee. Out the door the product would go, and the licensor would get its royalty.
Mannyrock
Hindsight is always 20-20. That's why no one wears glasses on their butt.
I don't get it. Would you be expecting the Lionel of 1969 Lionel to be producing 21st century style trains? Don't forget, the last years of "Original" Lionel was cheapened considerably from the glory days of the 50's.
You're being way to hard on General Mills. They used the tooling and assets they bought. And they were reliable for the most part. They were still making TOY trains with a customer base at the time mostly interested in Postwar styling. The "Scalification" of Lionel for the most part didn't begin until well into the Khun era.
And besides, you can't change the past.
Rusty
Personnaly, I think if Mannyrock is disappointed with his Lionel “o scale” Gateman he should locate a Marx operating signalman who is riveted to the door of the shack and then will we ever hear him roar.😜
I'd suspect the marking "O" Scale on the box was possibly to make sure it was easily differentiated from "HO", which was probably still in it's expansion in popularity at the time.
The O may be in quotes so people were more likely to know it was not meant for HO. (Less returns to TRU because "it's too big for the trains I have at home"... 
)
Especially because both were sold in the same aisle at Toys R Us at the time. There was a small amount of Lionel and then Tyco and possibly Bachmann (not 100% sure TRU sold Bachmann, that may have been at Child World) for the HO stuff, possibly up to roughly the mid 80's.
It's not like the TRU employees would know much more about the train aisle than any other aisle. So a label that was helpful to make the general public more likely to understand what was in the box seems like a good idea.
The general public doesn't know the difference between scale and gauge the way people here do. Especially not the general public from the 70's and 80's, before everyone had this interweb thingy in their pocket where they could look up stuff they didn't know on the spot.
-Dave
Besides my Lionel set Santa Claus gave me Christmas 1958 (my most treasured train item by the way) my second item is an early 1950's Gateman my father in law gave me from his layout. It works perfectly and my grandchildren love it more then some of the gee wiz stuff I have 😀
I think Dave's explanation is the most likely.
OK, great thread. I think we're done here!
Mannyrock
Manny:
The toy train side of 3-rail may not be your "happy place".
Andre
I’m sure the O Scale was just as others said , to differentiate the product from HO product that was on the same aisle in toy stores . As for quality of MPC, there were a few things that were cheapened , but the vast majority of the items were improvements on the items produced by the Lionel Corp during its last few years of train production. Many of those were a far cry from the quality products from Lionel’s golden age . The books recommended do give great insight into the era. The Lionel Corp at the time didn’t care about what MPC made , only that the royalty checks came on time . The train line was going to be discontinued anyways. If not for MPC it is possible all the tooling and equipment would have been lost forever
You must be very new to the hobby not to know about Lionel's gateman.
Mannyrock, you need to start doing a little research before you make acquisitions. All the information has been out there on the Lionel Gateman accessory you bought. You were only surprised because you didn’t do your homework. And incorrectly assuming that General Mills created the oversized, blue figure design was flat out wrong.
The scale of the building and the figure most likely has to be 1/24th scale.
Andrew
@Choo Choo Charlie posted:Manny
A search of eBay shows the original Lionel 145 Automatic Gateman box does not say O scale as well as the reissue from 1987 which does say " LIONEL Big, Rugged Trains & Tradition since 1900, O and O27 Gauge Automatic Gateman. A search of eBay Gateman items with pictures would show the Gateman was a giant as well as his shack.
The Gateman is one of Lionel's most popular accessory. Lionel trains almost never said any of their trains were scale models with 700E scale Hudson locomotive and later 773 Hudson being exceptions. Most Lionel trains sold were 3 rail O27 which is about 20% small than 1/4 inch to the foot O scale. These and 3 rail O gauge were TOY trains with no pretense to be scale model trains or accessories.
This forum is Hi-rail, O27 and Traditional 3-Rail O GAUGE.
There is a forum for 3-Rail SCALE.
Charlie
Add to the same time the PRR 0-6-0 switcher, tank car, hopper, and caboose. Just enough for a train set. And very late prewar.
@Rusty Traque posted:Hindsight is always 20-20. That's why no one wears glasses on their butt.
I don't get it. Would you be expecting the Lionel of 1969 Lionel to be producing 21st century style trains? Don't forget, the last years of "Original" Lionel was cheapened considerably from the glory days of the 50's.
You're being way to hard on General Mills. They used the tooling and assets they bought. And they were reliable for the most part. They were still making TOY trains with a customer base at the time mostly interested in Postwar styling. The "Scalification" of Lionel for the most part didn't begin until well into the Khun era.
And besides, you can't change the past.
Rusty
The first few "Standard O" cars came out about 1974. 2 boxcars, 2 refers, and 1(?) gon. You are right. The teal scale pushbwasca lot later.
@Dominic Mazoch posted:The first few "Standard O" cars came out about 1974. 2 boxcars, 2 refers, and 1(?) gon. You are right. The teal scale pushbwasca lot later.
Correct. They were made by Pola (who formerly made them for AHM) and had a bizarre off center mounting on the trucks so they'd go around O27 curves.
Rusty
This has to be the most "Alice in Wonderland" type discussion of 2020, perhaps in the history of the forum. Congratulations to all.
@Mannyrock posted:Great information from all. Thanks.
And for your Archives:
It has a Toys-R-Us price sticker attached to it. Price was $17.95.
I think that my final solution will be:
1. Pull the ugly Gateman from its base.
2. Substitute a pre-painted true O-Scale Bandito figure in the unit. (There are some great ones out there.) I will put the pressure switch on the track far away from the shack, so that the Bandito pops out way before the incoming train arrives.
3. Find a pre-painted true O-Scale railroad gateman figure.
4. Hang the new gateman by the neck from the crossing bars. (Of course, I will have to use a heat gun to soften his neck so that I can cock his head to one side first.)
Mannyrock
And then you will complain about the door and building is out of scale, You bought an item that when it said scale, the term scale was not used as it is today. Today it means 1:48/1:50 back then it meant it was for O scale trains of that period and scale was not to mean true scale. It was considered a toy.
As several others have noted; true scale in 3 rail didn’t really begin to come into play until the Kughn era at Lionel. Heck; if you look back through Lionel catalogs from the mid-50’s and later, they would routinely refer to what we now know as “traditional” size rolling stock as scale.
ALL of us were new to the hobby at one point and have misjudged the size of pieces. (God knows, I’m guilty as charged in that regard!) So; the best advice I read above is to do some familiarization and know what you’re buying BEFORE you buy it. 😉
Curt
The blue guy is clearly shown with no paint or detail on the box. What did you expect exactly?
If you look at the box again you will see that O scale is written "O" Scale with scare quotes around it. That lets them off the hook.
The original had a clever device to it - there was a light below - and a little porthole. When the Gate man emerged, he stopped over the porthole, and it shone a light up at the lantern giving the illusion that it was lit.
3-rail O-Gauge/"O-Scale" ain't for everybody. As a matter of fact, if it fails to meet one's expectations, maybe they should forget about "O" and look at switching to another scale. 
Or find another hobby altogether.
Jim R,
Thanks for your comment, but you are mistaken. I thought the product sucked right out of the box, long before I saw the reference to General Mills in tiny print on the back of the box.
For the $20 or so I paid for it, plus the modifications I will have to make, I will definitely come out OK moneywise.
I just didn't plan on this little purchase ending up being a "Project". (I thought I would only be painting a face and hands on the figure.) Like most folks, I have enough projects on my plate. :-)
RTrain made a very good point, of which I was unaware, that when the term O Scale was used in the 60s and 70s, it didn't have the same meaning that the term has today.
And, from other comments above, it appears that the Gateman of the Post War years was of far better quality than the one I got.
Lessons learned.
Mannyrock
Some PW are "close" to scale. And "close" are to the expectations when they came out:
Chemical tank car with fancy catwalk.
FM engine
F3 engines
Bay window caboose
4 bay hopper
Then again, some of the Lionel stuff makes some TYCO look like HO tineplate.
If any thread deserves to be, 'closed to further comments', it is this one.
Is this a prank thread? The Gateman has been around for what? 80 years? It’s one of the greatest accessory for toy trains ever invented
You, sir, are questioning a CLASSIC Lionel accessory that has delighted many thousands of children and adults over 85 years! Really?
....and in case you don't remember what fun that guy was/is....read on
By 1981, word of my annual living room train show, which began in earnest in 1977, had been passed around the water cooler at work. As a result people would start dropping by my desk in the early part of November, first to ask if I was planning to run trains and then, when I answered in the affirmative, to ask if they could be added to the list of possible visitors.
Close to the end of the third week in December Paul, one of my co-workers, dropped by and asked if it might be possible to bring his son over to see them. His boy was about 6 years old and had been deaf since birth. He mentioned that, at the moment, they were having a very difficult time with him at home with respect to behavior but he assured me he thought he could keep his son under control. Since Paul was built like a tank I figured he could make good on his assurance so we agreed to get together the following evening.
Paul came over and, after putting their coats in the hall closet, the three of us walked into the living room. At the first sight of the expanse of trains and track, Paul gave a sharp intake of breath and quickly reached down and clamped his huge arms around his son, effectively immobilizing his arms and legs. I sat down, looked his son in the eye, and pointed to the train on the outermost loop and started it rolling. Paul picked his son up and cradled him so that his head was down close to the train so his son could get the sensation of having it rush by. Before I started up the second one I again pointed to it and then started it rolling. Paul mentioned that, for the first time ever, his son wasn't squirming. I told him that, if he thought everything was OK, we could try just letting his son sit next to me. Paul set his son next to me and positioned himself so that he could grab him if need be - his son didn't move a muscle.
When I reached the point in the "show" where I turned on the gateman (it was just inside the first loop of track right next to his son) I pointed to the house just before the train brought him out. Paul's son was completely entranced at the sight of the man popping out of the shack. I think it is safe to say that never before or since has that accessory had a more appreciative audience. Every time the train would approach he would lean over just a little and watch intently and every time the gateman popped out, he would give it a little smile.
We ran trains for a little more than an hour. I finished the "show' and invited Paul and his son into the kitchen for some Christmas cookies and some punch. I was just reaching for the cookies when Paul's son reached up and took me by the hand and gently led me back to the living room. He stood for a second and then made a sweeping gesture with his free hand and looked me in the eye. I nodded and sat down in front of the transformers. Paul's son immediately sat down next to me and gestured once again to the layout. I started everything up and we ran trains. At the end of 3 hours Paul signed to his son that it was time to go. He got up, put on his coat, and, just before he left, he walked back to the living room and gave the Carpet Central a long last look. We never did get to those cookies and punch.
... Ever since, every time I pull old #45/145 out and run him, the first thing I think of is Paul's son.
Robert Butler - Great story, thank you for sharing.
I have the Lionel gateman from my youth and my grandson gets a big kick out of it as I still do. I don't care about "Scale" so it does not bother me.
To the original poster, I would recommend that you just sell it and find something else that fits your model train layout needs.
Dean
@Mannyrock posted:Geez, it must have been made when Lionel was on the verge of bankruptcy
The 2145 is virtually the same except for the colors as the 145 made since the late 1950's.
@POTRZBE posted:My dad bought me the gate man in 1949. He still works well to this day. That clink when the door closes is a sound from my yute that I love.
Yep! My dad got me my gateman in 1968. It operates still today on my layout.
This thread has been a great reminder of the joy and happiness that the little gateman has brought to thousands of children and adults over the past 85 years, it’s no wonder this little guy has been the most popular accessory Lionel ever produced. There are over 2000 views from people, many with fond memories of this little guy rushing out of his little shack To warn people of impending danger from an oncoming locomotive.
My gateman has occupied the left rear corner of the layout for years, however after reading through this thread I have decided to place him front and center, a position he rightfully deserves.
So manny, from myself and many others here on the OGR forum, Thanks for the memories
As pointed out, K-line Made a scale type variation(not a gateman but of a similar concept), there have also been variations made of tjeLionel News Stand, I believe an ice cream shop, with scale figures. Undoubtedly, accessories haven’t been immune to assuming more scale like proportions in the modern era.
What the majority of the replies state is true: the auto gateman is from an era when Standard Gauge was dominant and o gauge cars came in a wide variety of sizes. If the accessory is indeed 85 years old, it was developed at a during this time. However, the mid-30s was indeed the period in time when “Scale” was starting to cross the minds of those at Lionel- the scale Hudson set and semi-scale switchers Hale from that time period. However, the prewar scale movement momentum ended for Lionel with the onset of WW2 and toy trains reigned once again in the postwar years- albeit in o gauge rather than standard.
That said, if the buyer bought a brand new, MODERN(post 2000) in the box automatic gateman that said “o scale” on the outside AND indicated “1:48 scale proportions”, I’d say there’s a more than reasonable expectation that the item would be scale size. I’ve found that o scale items now include the “1/48 scale proportions” or “1/48 scale dimensions” to emphasize the item is actually scale since O scale and O gauge had been used interchangeably for quite awhile in both advertising(early modern era to 90s) and in general discussion. If language indicating proportions or dimensions wasn’t present, however, I wouldn’t expect a scale version of an item that’s traditionally been anything but scale.
when it comes to Lionel and determining if an item is scale or not, definitely check to see if it’s “standard O” or states “1:48 scale proportions” in the description. With MTH, you know premier is scale but railking rolling stock is sometimes scale as well and railking motive power is designated as “imperial”. For both Lionel and MTH, accessories are usually identified as Having “1/48 scale dimensions”. Otherwise, don’t assume that it is scale
@Mannyrock posted:Great information from all. Thanks.
And for your Archives:
It has a Toys-R-Us price sticker attached to it. Price was $17.95.
I think that my final solution will be:
1. Pull the ugly Gateman from its base.
2. Substitute a pre-painted true O-Scale Bandito figure in the unit. (There are some great ones out there.) I will put the pressure switch on the track far away from the shack, so that the Bandito pops out way before the incoming train arrives.
3. Find a pre-painted true O-Scale railroad gateman figure.
4. Hang the new gateman by the neck from the crossing bars. (Of course, I will have to use a heat gun to soften his neck so that I can cock his head to one side first.)
Mannyrock
Hey, Mannyrock! You complained a lot about the #145 blue Gateman, even tho' the pic on the box clearly shows him to be a very blue guy, but then you talk about using the contact pressure switch to operate him? That's not very consistent for a guy who claims to have the eye of a scale modeler. Use a couple of plastic insulators to create a 1, 2, or 3-track insulated trigger for the gateman. He may be less blue if U do.
I hate to see the OP reaction when he sees the WB Attack Shack with the Roadrunner and the ultimate genius, WilevE!
If nothing else, this thread has been a lot of fun to read.
Gateman was the first accessory I bought when I built our Christmas tree layout. I was new to Lionel, but I knew he was a giant. Now, I have a Gateman on each of my layouts. Wouldn’t want it any other way.
I have this very small Christmas theme vignette consisting mostly of Miller Engineering signs. Tucked in this display is Lionel's Christmas Gatemen. You really have to look to see him but he magically pops out with every passing. On the other hand my layout is not scale, but rather consists of past and present vignettes meaningful to our family.
As you can see I am not concerned with "scale". With that being said, I have not one but two gatemen that have been a favorite with visitors and have operated without flaw for over two decades.
When I acquire an item that does not meet expectations I just sell it or give it away.
Awesome!
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