Thoughts on Lionel 2015 Signature Catalog

"Exactly my point earlier."

David, no problem quoting me, but you forgot to pick up the most important part of what I said as follows:

"Every time a new catalog comes out, there are those who say they are going to buy and those who have no interest. Let's see what happens to this one when the dust settles."

Happy!  I got both of my wishes, LC+ Challenger with Whistle-Steam.   FT ABA LC+.

Amazing!

No interest.

Ken,

  I don't think the Challenger is LC+

Art

Will spring for Lionmaster Challenger 3989 (Union Pacific) and 3803 (Rio Grande).  Wish they would make smoke deflectors and an oil tender for Union Pacific 3977.

So, the catalogue says the 4 offered ESEs represent different eras, but it doesn't give any particulars. And honestly, other than the wheels, they look identical to me. Even the tenders - they have different names but the only difference I can see is that all have a ladder on the rear side other than the Mercury. Struck out when doing a little on-line research in trying to track the different eras and differences in appearance.  Other than the minor items I mention, does anyone know what the heck the difference is between any of these things? 

I think we often forget that today's Lionel is privately held and structured in what's commonly referred to as Private Equity.

The goal of the Private Equity Ownership Structure is to: 1)pay the management company as large of a management fee as possible while 2) providing as good of a rate of return to its Limited Partners as possible.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this.  At all.  But don't be naïve: their goal is to simply sell an item for as much as possible AND produce it for as little cost as possible.  (Every business that wishes to survive in the Long Term tries to do the same thing.) 

But what do you think this really means?  If they can get away with these price bumps, they will. 

The NKP Heavy Mike interests me....if the model is reasonably close to the prototype.....and the street price gets closer to $800....or less.  But I'm not a BTO fan....and I don't mean Bachman Turner Overdrive.

I just looked at the catalog.  I thought that the prices are very high.  I have nothing against Lionel doing this.  I would probably do it also if I was in their shoes. 

I am fortunate to already have all the trains I will ever need.  I hope that these prices cause the prices on the secondary market to hold their values.  I think that their are great deals on the used market and that is where I will look for trains to buy and to sell.

Joe

In general, Lionel has always been the "Name Brand" favorite. Sadly, even after you see the "real" price from your favorite dealer, they are just too expensive. I can't afford a $1,200 engine.

The suggested "List Prices" are a joke too. (I am a sales rep. in the Education industry) and quite familiar with this.

Thankfully, I sometimes get a Lionel engine on the secondary market and save some cash. Very disappointed with this catalog.

Ron W.

+1.

I still think Lionel dropped the ball on discontinuing the Conventional Classics/Post War Celebration line.  There was plenty more stuff to be made.  Lots of us (well over 50 percent based on the survey numbers posted here from time to time) that run trains conventionally and enjoy postwar-style layouts and trains.

Crap. I just lost another 2 thousand...

The ESE set is sold here....

Amazing Cars, 21 inches with Station Sound cars... There is a TRAIN GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can here the price of 21 inch K line cars making a GIANT thud on Ebay maybe in the next Year

Hey Lionel want to make an easy $ ?

Make the California Zephyr in 21 inch cars... the Atlas cars are just taking way to long...

Not all have low headlights. Maybe it's time for the NS fans to have the headlights in the right place.

Interesting discussion.  Personally, if I see something I really like, I will buy it.  Won't be put off by a few hundred here or there.  It's really fun to study the catalog and decide  Right now, I'm disappointed there wasn't a really big steamer, but the Florida East Coast ES44AC is a definite.

I don't doubt that for a NY minute.  These guys are probably laughing their right now if they're even reading any of these comments.  They're playing toy train enthusiasts like an orchestra -- knowing very well they're gonna get some push-back on prices.  What they're REALLY thinking is this is all gonna blow over in a few weeks.  And the more folks complain about prices, the more folks will actually "get accustomed" to the new pricing levels and order anyway.  They don't give a hoot that the real enthusiasts who bought multiple units may be forced to downsize their purchase(s).  But they're also hoping ENOUGH enthusiasts continue to buy SOMETHING -- even if 10 buyers each make one purchase rather than 5 buyers making 2 purchases.  They don't care... as long as they still sell 10 units.

That kind of thinking has gone on for decades and will continue until folks stop buying and sales go down.  Will this be the year that toy train enthusiasts buck the trend?  Nobody knows until the numbers get tallied.  But I'm willing to bet overall dealer sales will be impacted by the price increases this time -- simply because there is such an overwhelming amount of merchandise in great condition on the secondary market these days.  Never has this source of inventory been such a strong competitive factor to new-build trains than NOW.

Case in point:  JLC Y6b's for $800 on the secondary market vs. the new Legacy Y6b at $1430 (give or take a few dollars).  Is the whistle-steam feature along with Legacy electronics/Railsounds really worth $600+?  Of course not.  But most of these high-priced items are BTO, so it's the dealer who's holding the risk now -- not the importers.  Lionel's executives and directors are grinning ear-to-ear... all the way to the bank.

David

Wahoo...Looks like I'll have to throw my CCII ESE, PT Tender, Station Sounds Diner and the other six passenger cars in the dumpster.  Guess I should have taken 'em out of the boxes.  They are only 18" long but they have crew and passenger figures.  Maybe I can transfer the passengers over before I toss them out.  TMCC to boot.  Oh well, it's only money, and a steam whistle difference.  Wait, if I take two 18" passenger cars and cut them up...no that's crazy it'll never look right grafting 3" onto the old cars.

Why did Lionel have to come out with that new catalog.  So depressing, all this obsolescence.  I'm feeling a little obsolete too  !

Richard Snipes

4501 Safari  

Well my wallet dodged a bullet on the Lionmaster Challenger. No D&H Challenger this time. 

The Providence & Worchester car carrier is only the second P&W piece of equipment Lionel has ever cataloged. The other one was a 9700 series boxcar from the 70's.

The yellow and red gantry crane looks like the real take away for me.

I am glad they are making the Chessie System B&O 89' Auto Carrier.

The Chicago & North Western Auto Carrier could have been the 1993 and 1994 scheme with the large CNW centered on the corrugated panels.

They could have gone with the 1980's Chicago & North Western safety yellow scheme with a TT TRAILER TRAIN flat car.

I will have to look for the best price on the C&NW auto rack if I get it.

Andrew

I think Lionel will keep charging the big money as long as people will pay it. Look what's happened in the last few weeks.  A lot of people just on this forum were snatching up $2000 Big Boy's like candy bars!  RMT trains has been advertising to buy now before the prices rise 15% more.    How is that going to affect prices along the board for all other train makers?   It seems to be shaping up as a rich man's hobby! 

Or rather, it's continuing to be a rich man's hobby.

Price it right and you'll have absolutely NO TROUBLE selling these on the secondary market.    It won't fund your new purchase completely, but it'll certainly help the cause. 

David

P.S.  I just noticed the way Lionel is selling the ESE in the new 2015 Signature Catalog -- namely, loco w/4 cars plus 2-car add-on and StationSounds diner.  Now I must grabbed a GGD 6-car set off the forum last week at a great price.  So I'm now wondering how Lionel's version may "match up".  Who knows, perhaps I'll expand my 6-car set with 3 more Lionel cars and order from this catalog after all!!!    Worst case, it may turn out to be a nice way to add StationSounds functionality to my just-newly-purchased GGD ESE.   

FWIW:  I think this is a great time to be both a buyer and a seller in the Secondary Market.  Probably not the comment expected when a new catalog comes out....but true nonetheless, IMHO.

Couldn't agree with you more!!! 

David

I've been waiting for this, too, with a set of passenger cars also waiting.

Considering that the MSRP for LionMaster Challengers in the 2001 catalog was $800, the $1000 MSRP for the new Legacy versions with whistle steam isn't out of line. It's a lot of money, but using the CPI inflation table, $800 in 2001 would be $1069.39 as of 2014. (Street price on the new Challengers is $800.)

I have to agree. These are great looking units but $650 seems high. 

Still, no LC+ sets. No sets with operating accessories.. where are the sets of our childhood with not only track and transformer but uncoupling tracks and at least one or two good play value operating cars?   More of the same cheap sets...Especially  the Christmas sets.. why bother with a new catalog that rehashes the 2014 Christmas items.  

And specifically as it pertains to the Signature catalog, will we never see a roadmap for electronics upgrades?  Is it so hard to design replaceable modules that will allow you to upgrade sounds and features?  Sure there are third party products and plenty of guys out there who will do it for you or show you how, but why not build a product that is 100% upgradeable?   Start at the low end with the RTR sets and at least make them upgradeable to LC+.  Sheesh!  How hard can it be.  And how about a minimal upgrade path for conventional runners?  Seems like a no-brainer to me... again, why does Lionel concede that segment of the market to others?

Let's not forget your cars are beautiful aluminum and the new ones are cheap plastic.

Folks complain here everyday about not having anything to do with  articulated engines as engines that big would look just plain silly on their layout.

Given that....What do think four or five 21"plastic  passenger cars would look like behind a much smaller engine like a Hudson?

Do yourself a BIG favor, unbox the set and start enjoying what you already  have.

Joe 

Well, is this a new era for lionel?  I mean, I do not see any of the BTO items from the last catalog so I guess if you did not order from that one you are out?  No more second runs I guess.  But the downside is that unless you are interested in the current road names, not much there. Anyone else in this box?

Meh... maybe its time for NS to just get with the program and put the dang things where they're supposed to be in the first place!  

It is frustrating, but the whole "economies of scale" thing bites us once again.  Whatever it costs to do a separate run with proper NS headlight placement is apparently not worth it to Lionel.  Shame, because Fox Valley Models managed to pull it off in N scale - I have a couple and they are REALLY nice.   I'm not a 2R or 3R scale guy - to me, O scale is a perpetual game of "close enough".  If I wanted it to be exact every time, I'd probably do HO (there are issues there as well...).  Still, with the price increases we are seeing, I think its fair for the customer to demand more.  Ultimately, we either buy it or we don't, and we have no one to blame but ourselves when it comes to high prices - we just keep buying it.  

Unfortunately, there is not enough elasticity of demand.  If people could just jump from scale to scale, prices would likely moderate - thats the downside of the permanent layout.  It represents a huge investment in time and money, and you can't just switch on a whim. I don't have what most would consider to be a permanent layout - I can switch thing up without a lot of hassle, but the cost would kill me just in terms of rolling stock and such. My n-scale stuff is all DCC, and like DCC a lot - I just can't afford to do multiple scales with all the bells and whistles.... and I do like me some bells and whistles

Lionel will charge as much as they possibly can until they can't.  In business, "them's the rules".   Maybe it's this catalog, maybe it's the next.  Its all part of the move upmarket, really.   Not enough money to be made from the "bottom feeders" - you've got to cater to the guys with the cash to make money these days.   Interesting analogy:  a couple of years ago, the Apple iPad accounted for something like 20-25% of the total tablet market, yet accounted for an astounding 80% of the profits in said market.  The iPad was in general the most expensive option and in many cases was the least feature rich, but it had the name brand recognition and the "cool factor" going for it - everyone wanted one regardless of how good or bad it was.   Apple's made a metric p**p ton of money over the last decade, so there's something to be said for going after the affluent spenders and the trendy hipsters.   Maybe Lionel will release an 'iTrain' someday, and it will be so fabulous and so unique that all of us will be willing to spend almost anything to obtain one...

... but today, a boxcar is a boxcar, and $70-80 is just too much 

quote:

"but today, a boxcar is a boxcar, and $70-80 is just too much"

I think rolling stock is getting a bit much price wise.  A B&M caboose I saw in the catalog $94.95! I realize that's not the street price but I doubt it will be that much cheaper. 

Only thing I'm definitely going to get is the Moon Pie boxcar. I like the Justice League boxcars but $340 for 4 boxcars?!?! I may have hit my head several times over the course of my life but not hard enough to even think about spending that kind of money.

Jerry

To be honest though Lionel cabooses have gotten quite good. What are your other options? To get a better caboose you would have to pay $300 or much more for brass. Just saying it is all the perspective you look at it from. I recently paid $350 for a 3rd Rail Erie brass caboose and if I'm being entirely honest it wasn't really any better than what Lionel is putting out.

I bow my head in sorrow at the loss of extrusion technology.  I thought we stopped sending our AMC Eagle bumpers to China years ago.  It's a brave new world as we transition from the Aluminum Age into the Plastic Age.

All is not lost though, for once again another version repeated over and over of the Electrolux State Express, part Du.  Could have been worse...it might have been another Legacy SD40. 

I'm so excited!

Bruce

Lionel still has yet to produce this Soo Line Railroad Company auto rack on a TTGX TT TRAILER TRAIN 89' flat car. This is more Soo Line than the scheme they made first. Next time perhaps.

Well said David.  IMO most people are getting priced out of the hobby.  A 30% increase for the same engine that was delivered in Dec?  Unless I missed all the additional features, or wait is it all diecast????