Thoughts on Lionel 2015 Signature Catalog

The catalog was interesting -- I like the unmarked Mikado and the Legacy B6.  Neat locomotives.  I also like many of the reissued accessories, and am happy to see the return of Lionmaster, but at a list price significantly higher than MTH Imperial.  That price situation will be interesting to watch and the market will sort it out as it does with all price/value relationships.

No Pere Marquette items.  

Great looking chart but that says "estimate" but more importantly why was there no 30% increase across the board?  Auto racks for example are the same price.  

Another metric is the stagnation of income for the majority while prices continue to rise for non discretionary expenses. I just read an analysis on grocery prices alone..yikes. Not that I have to read about to experience this. I went to a local store today and got a bag of maybe six routine items and it cost me fifty bucks. That doesn't include boomers like myself now on a fixed income. I think the squeeze is on and for many willing to pay interest on a credit card, well...it's doable...for now in terms of toys.

I folded while I was ahead....or was that while I was behind?

Thank heaven gas prices are down for now at least. It's pretty tough out there in the real world away from the layout.

Why no seated passengers in the 21" cars? They are present in the aluminum 18" cars. Maybe folks don't want to ride in a plastic passenger car. 

Instead they reissued K-Line's version and simply replaced TMCC with Legacy.  Again, the molded in detail leaves a lot to be desired.  The addition of Legacy is an obvious improvement although not enough to sway me into buying.

Bruce

Something tells me Williams won't have any trouble producing aluminum cars.  After studying the new ESE set I will keep my CCII version with the aluminum cars.  They are works of art.  But several of the SD40's catch my eyes.  Lets hope for a hi-nose Southern.

I too am passing on this, for a combination of the reasons you cite, along with the fact it is not a loco I really want (beyond the fact that I need more quality, scale, small locos.  

But this being in the catalog is very encouraging because it indicates Lionel my put Legacy is other, smaller locos.  Right now, the smallest quality steamer I have is the PS3 Premier 2-8-0, a tiny thing, but really nice: nice detailed model with good sound, a good runner, with cruise, excellent slow speed smoothness, etc.  I would love more small steamers . . . just not this one.   

Many, including myself, have commented on the uptick in the ES44 pricing.  Seems however that ES44 pricing -- we're talking about the plastic-body models -- has been a bit inconsistent at best.

2012 Vol 2:  $550 MSRP  /  $465 typical street-price [NS Heritage Series]

2014 Vol 1:  $550 MSRP  /  $400 typical street-price [CN, UP, CSX, etc...]

2015 Vol 1:  $650 MSRP  /  $520 estimated street-price

If pushed to explain the newest pricing in the 2015 catalog, I can easily hear Lionel execs telling us the latest price increase is "only" an 18% bump on MSRP and a 12% bump up from the original $465 street-price when the ES44's were introduced as part of the Norfolk Southern Heritage Series locomotives.

So I guess we got a bit of a break in 2014 when ES44 street-prices actually DROPPED 14%.  I wonder if the Chinese took a wage hit in 2014 too.    I doubt it.  But in retrospect, I'm glad I purchased my two CN ES44's that year.  Just lucky I guess, but this is why I made the comments I did earlier about price/performance improving similar to what we see with computers and consumer digital devices.

Well... at least it was nice while it lasted for those products catalog'd 2014.  The SD70's and FM Trainmasters also settled in at the same street-pricing.  So 2014 was the year to stock up on Lionel diesels I suppose.

Frankly, I still think there's a bit of a shell game going on here with pricing.  Those charts we've seen here recently in a few threads depicting Chinese wage increases over time "look" cool (sorta reminds me of Jerry C's Powerpoint marketing funnel charts), but I don't think they tell the whole story.    Whatever the real reason turns out to be, it appears toy train enthusiasts will need to dig deeper if they want the latest stuff.    Either that, or just send a message to the importers/dealers by not ordering the newest products.  It's not like we don't have more than we need already!!! 

David 

As always the cost of these products have less to do with their cost of manufacture than what the buyer will pay for the product. lets see where we set the price.

Fred

They only show the high headlight on the ES44AC.

Does that mean that they only made it with one headlight position?

Is the high headlight just a catalog illustration?

Andrew

Andrew,

I talked to Ryan Kunkle(email) - Lionel"Project Manager High End Locomotives" about the same issue.

He said "Unfortunately, we are not able to move the head lights on these units due to the tooling costs involved".

So the pictures in the catalog are what you get. I decided to get the 2 Norfolk Southern since the headlight is correct and bite the bullet and get the other KCS "Belle" unit even though the headlight is in the wrong place.

I bought one CSX and one Ferromex out of the last run and even though I know they are wrong (headlight placement) they are still cool and it looks like I saved $120 a unit last time. Might go back and pick up the other CSX.

Joe

Bruce -Just curious but that is my photo of that locomotive when I owned it 3- 4 years ago. Where did you get it please?

A friend, Norton here brought it to me. It criss-crossed the country as I sold it to a young fella in LA who soon resold it and shipped it back to FL to Nick (PC****)???

"can't move the headlight because of tooling costs" but we get a $120 increase.....pretty funny stuff.

Sam,

  I found the photo right here on OGR.  There was a related topic exactly one year ago in which this pic existed.  People were wishing for a Legacy B6 back then too.

Bruce

LOL, "tooling costs". I doubt they would be very high. Drill headlights through the nose instead of the cab, and there you have it. How is that so complicated? Plus I'm sure they are losing potential sales for these engines thanks to some people (myself included) who want the accurate headlight placement, and wouldn't dream of spending 600+ dollars on an engine that didn't .

Bottom line is, and this goes for any inaccurate/overpriced Lionel item. As long as people continue to buy them, Lionel will continue to get it wrong/raise prices. The best way to get them to change is to "vote with your wallet" and not buy these products.

What have people heard, if anything, about delivery timeliness?  Not going to order anything to get strung along.

Will do.  Catching up on those - just heard the Mike Wolf interview.  Very interesting.

IMO the most glaring example of this is the NKP whistle on the Erie and C&O berks.

I certainly would NOT want a C&O berk with a NKP whistle.  

They set the bar high in the sound dept, yet on occasion cut corners, and breakout the cookie cutter.I know here to get "cookie cutter" sounds if I want them. This certainly wasn't the case with TMCC stuff.

The raspy hooter on every legacy 2-8-8-2 no matter which road is B.S.too. Its a poor example of a hooter to begin with.

Thats a "cop out" anyway.  They use the K Line tooling to make the legacy light mikado a few years ago. The original K Line pennsy light mike had a correct high mount headlight.

Lionel chose to make all of the legacy "light mikes" with the headlight on the smokebox door, even the pennsy.

For the premium price why not get ALL the details right, especially when the tooling is already available.

Look at the squared off crosshead guides on the VL hudson How did that get screwed up when in 1990 and later hudsons they were correct

Put another way:

As model train prices get higher, our expectations also get higher.

If you can not make a premium locomotive, do not expect to get a premium price for it.  Period.

Many, including myself, have commented on the uptick in the ES44 pricing.  Seems however that ES44 pricing -- we're talking about the plastic-body models -- has been a bit inconsistent at best.

2012 Vol 2:  $550 MSRP  /  $465 typical street-price [NS Heritage Series]

2014 Vol 1:  $550 MSRP  /  $400 typical street-price [CN, UP, CSX, etc...]

2015 Vol 1:  $650 MSRP  /  $520 estimated street-price

I bought 4 of the 2014s (CN, UP, CSX, Ferromex) and the shells are dull, ordinary, & plastic looking. I have 2 of the 2012s NS Heritage and the shells are very shiny, like a custom paint job. Certainly expect some of the 2015s may be shiny, especially the ATSF and BNSF. There do not appear to be any new features.

Less accuracy for higher prices seems to reflect the viability of the market as it continues to shrink. Diminished expectations and blow back as a Catch 22 combined with wanting more for less or...wanting yesterday's prices today. Personally, I don't think we are being dictated to ..it seems a combination of unrealistic expectations hit reality. Going, going....gone. It reminds me oddly enough of boxed goods at the grocery store. The box remains the same size while the contents are less.

All this underscores for me just how under appreciated and how sorely missed..is K-Line.

Does this mean Lionel will likely use the whistle on the Vision Line Hudson for the new Empire State Express? I mean, I want a 6 chime whistle on these engines, but I do want it to have a personality of its own. Though, if the Legacy Pennsy Turbine taught me anything, and as you said about the Berks, Lionel might cut corners here, too...

I'm not saying that Lionel is being bad that they automatically will do it, and I still will buy Lionel product, but as said, cutting corners that are very obvious is not a good message to customers. Though, it will take a lot more before Lionel becomes as malicious as Nickelodeon...

To my mind everything in models and modeling is compromise. To what degree one thinks an injustice is being served depends on who is looking. I have the CNSM set from K-Line by Lionel and the roofs and end cabs are way off. One is even painted in the CAE scheme. They don't match. The conductor sounds like Jimmie Cricket and his high pitched announcements are random and even go so far as to announce dinner in the dining car when there is no diner! Do I run it? You bet. 

Why? Because it's fun. Accuracy and fun seem to get tied up in it's own shoelaces and I just move on....toot the horn and watch this goofy compromise go round. If I paid two grand for it...I doubt I would have bought it in the first place.

You do have a point there, and I for one don't demand perfection, though it is nice when it is available. In fact, if Lionel does exactly what I think I will, it still won't stop me from buying the new Empire State Express set, because it still looks like a beautiful, big set.

The shrouded Hudsons started out unshrouded. I would have expected all of them to sound pretty much the same. Get the whistle right for one and it should be right for all of them unless someone changed the whistle along the way. 

Pete

Greetings Oingo -- and welcome to this forum and O gauge.  Please don't be put off by the high prices discussed in this thread although the concerns are valid.  We think that overall you will find much more enjoyment with your move to O and the larger trains. Be patient and don't get caught up in the 'gotta have the latest and greatest' mentality.

There are plenty of bargains out there in previously owned and new old stock from last years pieces on back to older items that are just as satisfying as much of the new stuff. Especially if you're new to O anyway. Lionel has been producing trains for 115 years now with MTH having produced almost as many in about half that time. There is a LOT of available stock for you to choose from!

Seems like the engineer gets around too

The train collector in me agrees concerning the Al cars. A more substantial 'feel' than plastic and more in keeping with the traditional model train maker's art. Nothing looks like metal like metal.

Having written the above, I shall be self-contradictory. I have, nonetheless, sent an inquiry off to Lionel about the idea of selling the new ESE cars separately. I already have the perfectly beautiful CC 2 ESE, the add-on tender, and the full Al car set, but it might be cost effective fun to have the new 21" cars for those appropriate occasions.

We'll see.

Bob

I think that's a good idea Bob, primarily also for people who don't want to pay a lot at once for the set and rather pay a little less for each piece separately. I for one am not partial to what material in passenger cars, as I have had far more plastic made cars than metal ones. However, as the saying goes, each to their own.

I am surprised that Lionel did not offer the Napa Valley Whine train for 2015. Seems there would be a lot of interest in it, judging by this thread.

Fred 

Well, I have made my feelings known about those of us who have limited space for our layouts. I love the ES44AC locomotives. But, and it's one of my "buts." I wish Lionel would engineer these locomotives to allow running on tighter curves. 054 just doesn't cut it for me. (Yes, I know MTH has a similar locomotive out there and it's designed for 042 or 054 curves depending on which GE you desire.)

If you can do EMD SD series locomotives that run on the tighter curves, why not the GE's?????? There's a trade-off I know, but darn it, at these prices, more flexibility in operational capabilities would certainly, open up more demand. I would love to obtain an ES44 with the Iowa Interstate commemorative paint scheme, with the correct headlight placement.

Likewise to assuage everyone's preferences, why go with the NS headlight placement, when all the other railroads, have their headlights placed on the nose of their locomotives. Kind of odd to me.

The horns on the diesels have changed also.  The Vision Line and NS Heritage ES44's have the same horn but the recently released ES44's have a different one.  IMO the Vision Line and the NS Heritage horn is much better.  Same story for the SD70 ACE's.  The UP Heritage engines have a great sounding horn but a different horn was used for the NS Heritage SD70's which IMO sounds absolutely nothing like an SD70 and sounds terrible.  I have heard and read similar comments from many others.

I'm very happy with the offerings in this catalog and will be spending big bucks. I didn't buy anything from the last three rounds of catalogs.

I have pre ordered 3 MOPAC SD-40's

Three ABA sets of MOPAC Alco PA's and PB's

Two of the MOPAC Heavy Mikados

The NYC ESE Hudson set.