Thoughts on Lionel 2015 Signature Catalog

Would very much like to have a Legacy SOUTHERN Alco PA set but cannot entertain the idea of shelling out $800-$900 for an AA pair. I started a thread recently comparing the earlier TMCC PA's with the 'upgraded' Legacy issues. We have two TMCC sets and two Legacy sets (UP and Santa Fe pictured below) and the TMCC versions have equal or better sound plus MARS lights at the nose of each A unit - a feature lacking on both Legacy sets.

These handsome UP diesels were purchased on the auction site for a mere $300 too!  Such a deal...

Just fell in love with the SP SD-40's and the Alco PA's. Come on lottery

What's with the centered dome on the 21" cars then? Looks more like a stretched 2500 series car more (or like the old Weaver 21" cars). Guess if you want proper dome placement you gotta go with 18" cars.

Peter

Well, if we listen to Derek's podcast covering the 2015 Signature Catalog, there's vestiges of an answer... and it's one I had feared we'd hear some day... namely the reality that Lionel's production of aluminum cars is on very borrowed time.     I was particularly disenchanted to hear the unbelievably long lead time to get extruded aluminum from suppliers -- a year or more... WOW!!!  And if there are issues with the delivered aluminum and they need to go back to the well (so to speak), they're looking at another year to obtain more materials for passenger car production.  I guess that pretty much explains some of the challenges surrounding aluminum car production overseas nowadays.

So in the case I outlined above, the problem is not taking the orders.  The problem is getting the materials in an era where a technology change is imminent, and cut-over to passenger car production with ABS plastic will soon be the norm for Lionel.

Definitely another "end of an era" scenario in play.

David

The ACF Center Flow 4650 and 5250 covered hoppers will have to be made out of Plastic from now on, if the Aluminum is hard to acquire.

Andrew

Simple economics. Chinese manufacturing wages are set to increase 18% in 2015, and expect that increase rate for the foreseeable future. Our trains will be even ~18-30% more expensive next year unless Lionel wants to reduce profit margins drastically. 

Unless Lionel moves manufacturing somewhere else with reduced labor costs, the price increases will simply continue. This is not Lionel's fault, it is global economics at work. 

More onto the topic at hand. I would very much like to acquire a Santa Fe ES44AC, but it is rated for 054 and I only have 048. That product really caught my eye. 

I have the CC ESE from 2005 and will pull it out soon to inspect.  If I see any hint of improvement..I will buy the new set.  

Also, is the pullmor motor dead?  Officially?  What was the last product to use it?  There are some items in the catalog that should be pullmor but the description doesn't mention the motor...Snowplow and missile launcher cars (I don't believe they retooled the truck for a can motor.)

Its 2015...we should have no trouble finding aluminum and having it formed into cars.

Are the B6 Switchers based on the 1989 revision of the prewar tooling?

Also, would like to see a 60's era Penn Central Broadway Limited...

Its 2015...we should have no trouble finding aluminum and having it formed into cars.

 

Are the B6 Switchers based on the 1989 revision of the prewar tooling?

 

Also, would like to see a 60's era Penn Central Broadway Limited...

Aluminum is at a premium as Ford and other automakers switch over to it for the production of their truck bodies.  Want to blame someone for the loss of your 1950-era technology?  Blame the Federal Government's cafe standards.

The B-6 is definitely NOT the tooling form 1989.  Not even ballpark.

Jon

Likely more of the "aquired" K Line tooling. Just like the K4,A1 berk,shay, 0-4-0 etc of previous legacy offerings.

I still don't get why no affordable Legacy steam like the LC+.

Art

Add me to that list as well. I would have kept buying the cc/pwc stuff if they were making it.  There was a bunch of stuff - Alco sets, NW2 sets, hudson sets to be done. 

Have you checked out the dollar index lately?

Part of the increase can be attributed to Lionel probably adjusting imported MSRP's to the anticipated additional cost of the rising dollar against most other currency. 

Joe

I'm happy to see the Southern Heavy Mike and the 21" Southern passenger car in this catalog I will be getting these!!!

Rather than worry over the increasing prices, many should consider previously purchased trains ... barely 'used' because much of it has been hardly run. There is a mountain of content-rich trains made 5 to 10 years ago widely available on the secondary market that were nice pieces for their time and still are. Lionel continues to reissue engines that are almost (for the most part less a few new tweaks) identical to previous versions.

By the way, an appreciating dollar should, all other factors equal, result in constant or decreasing M.S.R.P.s here. Increasing labor costs are what drive the increases.

Bob

Pretty much my situation David.

No need for me to buy anything new unless MTH or Lionel comes out with a PS3 or Legacy Santa Fe F3.

I still need a Hudson, but insist on DCS, TMCC, or Legacy..but at the Legacy prices, I will probably go the MTH route or buy a Williams and upgrade it.

I got the last of the passenger cars I needed at a great price from Eliot here on the forums, and found all my passenger cars from Williams at great prices on secondary markets and upgraded them to LED.

LOL, me bad, what was I thinking this morning.

Lionel should be lowering not raising MSRP's in anticipation of higher dollar valuation.  

I have been saying that for awhile too...I will be honest with you, unless I find a new or MIB item on the secondary markets and auction sites, my new purchases from Lionel are over.

They have priced me out of their products.

This past winter, I only bought one new Lionel item from Nicholas Smith, a Legacy WP F3 AB, at such a great price I could not pass it up.

Same for MTH, an UP F3 ABA for less than the Lionel Legacy WP F3 AB, all new from Aaron's trains.

The remainder, was all from sellers on this forum or Evil Bay.

$85 catalog list for the traditional size Moon Pie boxcar is a big time shafting.

Since there was no ZW listed in this catalog, has anyone heard if there's going to be a separate 2015 Power and Track Catalog?

Thanks, Phil   

What price increases?? Need I remind folks, 15 years ago back in 1998 MSRP for a Lionel SOO LINE SD-60 was $650.00.

Prices haven't really changed all that much..

Joe

It would be intriguing to know the rationale behind the price increase on the ES44s. 

There is nothing new about them, with the exception of the paint scheme.  A year over year price increase of ~30% is egregious in my opinion. 

A theory of relativity comes to mind according to how much spare cash has and \ or is willing to throw down on toys. It seems like a dividing point is coming down the road where the rubber meets the highway. You could hear this coming like a freight train five miles off. I think this trend has "only just begun" for better or worse depending on how much its worth to you. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the secondary market will grow and...the law of demand versus supply might mean price increases in that market as well. I know that hunting for bargains has become a more challenging search with fewer exceptions. And so it goes....

Since there was no ZW listed in this catalog, has anyone heard if there's going to be a separate 2015 Power and Track Catalog?

Thanks, Phil   

Nope, same catalog is in effect this year.

MSRP for the 1989 B-6 with 50 year old tooling, PullMor motor, and RailSounds 1.0 was $525!

Jon

Buying anything at any price because one can seems to drive this and so on the opposite side, you have the marketers saying "sounds like a plan" LOL.

I didnt have a issiue with them going up some. It just seemed like alot to me.. It be different if they had the headlights in the right place and i didnt have to fix every engine i bought...I had to fix my bigboy after 4 days..

So, Lionel traditional size boxcars listed at $70 to $85. Menards traditional size boxcar $19, whats wrong with that picture. 

>>I have been saying that for awhile too...I will be honest with you, unless I find a new or MIB item on the secondary markets and auction sites, my new purchases from Lionel are over.

They have priced me out of their products.<<

At the last show I attended 4 & 5 car MTH passenger car sets were selling in the $250- $275  range.  Last fall I picked up a L/N Lionel aluminum 7 car Amtrak superliner set including station sound car for $275.

If one really cares to look there are terrific deals on terrific products to be had. 

IMO, its a wonder these companies still exist today with current secondary market prices on recent product as low as they are. 

Joe

add another who is glad to see the return of LionMaster.  if they reissue the big boy with whistle steam effect, i am upgrading.

i think the ESE is beautiful, but won't fit on my layout.

the gantry remains my only sure purchase from this catalog.  have already preordered.

Like most of us in the "baby boomer" demographic, I've got more trains than I will ever "need".  I don't plan to preorder anything from the new Big L catalog, but I might pick up one of the Boston and Maine cabooses they are offering if I see one in the store first.

One thing I would like to see either MTH or Big L produce, and that's a decent E7.  I will take one each in a Boston and Maine, Maine Central, and Bangor and Aroostook flavors, please.  And while they're at it, some 18" passenger cars to go with those would be nice, too!

My thoughts on the 2015 Lionel catalogs?

Dat's a lot of stuff to make in a year

---PCJ

You are assuming it will be.

Agreed....such as what happened to the Neil Young Sig series passenger cars and sets?

Only the A and B units were released.

Been a few years now.

Frankly, I bought some beautiful Lionel Texas Special cars, including the Station Sounds car brand new at a great price on eBay instead, as I got tired of waiting.

Thus, I have no problem if Lionel doesnt want my money.

LOL! Know!

Well,  I have a few of each.  The Menards cost about $19, the Lionel street price was not quite three times that.  Personally, I'll stick with the Lionel.  Worth the difference. 

Stop confusing everyone with facts.

Jerry

Ok, I'm in for Wabash PA A-A, Wabash Powered PB, Wabash 21" passenger cars, Wabash stations sounds diner, Texas Special stations sounds diner, FEC ES44AC, and KCS ES44AC. Was looking for a big steamer, but maybe Mike will have that.