Tinplate photos 📸 and videos 📽

Hi...I guess this is my day for posting.  Its stormy here in Tx so outside work can't be done and I am off today so I get to fool around with the trains.  I recently acquired a Fandor Timber Wagon and I was examining it and found that the trademark was different than that which appeared in some other Fandor cars I have.  So I was hoping that some of you who are much more knowledgeable about European tinplate might have an explanation.

Here are the two cars I compared.

The SHELL tanker has a lithographed trademark which is triangular in shape with the triangle inverted (i.e. pointed down).  In a block at the top (broad leg) of the triangle  are the block letters "KRAUS" .  Then contained within the triangle are two lines of lettering..."FANDOR" on top and "JKCo" on the next line.  The country of origin, Germany, is simply lithographed elsewhere on the tank and not really included as a part of the trademark.

The Timber Wagon (Name from TCA Western Div website) has an embossed trademark on the bottom of the wagon floor.  It is also triangular but the block lettering "KRAUS" does not appear on the triangle at all.  Inside the triangle are the same two lines of printing..."FANDOR" on line 1 and "JKCo" on line 2.  Then the word "Germany" is distributed such that it wraps around the apex of the triangle.  It is also embossed. 

The cars have some similarities such as the embossed springs are similar or nearly identical but the couplers on the tank wagon are far more complex than those on the timber wagon, which has just simple T/S couplers with no retaining device.

Well anyway, I was simply curious about the differences in the trademark and if perhaps they represented different time periods in the production.  I know that Mr. Kraus funded the formation of the FANDOR start up in Nuremberg at the founding in 1910 so perhaps the trademark without his name being so prominent would be later when his influence might have lessened.

Don

There is a known history of the Third Reich having restricted certain trademarks of Jewish owned concerns. Could this be the case here?

Tinplate Art. Good thought that may be it. I know that Kraus lost the business in 36 likely to that  cause. 

Don

Scott Smith

Don and Tinplate Art,

The Nazis did 2 things in the late 1930s.  They ordered the population not to buy goods from Jews and they expropriated Jewish businesses with little or no compensation or arranged "forced sales".   Bing had failed in the early 1930s and their stampings and products ended up with Kraus and Karl Bub among others.  Doll was taken over by Fleischman.  Kraus in turn  was ultimately taken over by Keim. Trix was bought out by Ernest Voelk under a forced sale arrangement.

Lew Schneider

Hi @Don McErlean The following is just my thoughts on the Kraus timeline regarding the trademarks and business evolvement ...

Joseph Kraus in collaboration with his cousins the Forcheimer brothers Milton and Julius founded FANDOR ( as named after their mothers names of Fanny and Dora ) in 1910 and the trademark was JKCo ( Joseph Kraus & Company) reflecting the involvement of the cousins in the partnership )

The period after WWI was hard for many German firms, as the market in America was tariffed to a point where it was hard for German firms to export there at a profit, so like Bing, and even Hornby, it made much better business sense to start up production IN America to take advantage of the post war prosperity that the US was having ... So Julius and Milton emigrated to America in 1924 with the head Fandor designer, John Koerber, and set up DORFAN funded by & working closely with Joseph and sharing design and tooling costs .. until in 1933 when forced out by the Nazis growth and emerging anti-jewish company ownership laws Joseph deserted the parent company and joined the cousins in the USA ...Keim took it over in 1936 with the blessing of Adolf and his mates !

So I believe that in the period where the Forcheimers were no longer at JKco Joseph felt he could then trademark his products with KRAUS more prominently although still mentioning the Fandor and JKCo history , reflecting the fact the Forcheimers were now Dorfan and that he was in sole control of the German arm of the partnership .

Thanks Lew,Fatman,Tinplate Art, others. History is often outrageous in its unfairness and cruelty but it is good for us to know it such that we guard against repeating it. 

Thanks for helping  me investigate this find. 

Don 

And now for something a bit different.  Way back about 20 years ago my late friend Marty Fitzhenry built me a relatively simple layout with two main lines connected by Ross 096 crossovers.  The footprint was about 6 feet by 10 feet.  Since then I've broken through a wall and doubled the size of the layout as well as taken the trains through another wall as part of a new main line loop.

Yesterday I finished abandoning the original portion of the main line to free up space for my German tinplate station collection as well as eliminate two troublesome switches.

And here is the result. The Kibri 52-000 tower station dominates the new scene.  The old right of way is clearly evident.

But this may well be a transition scene for I've just acquired but not received the Kibri 52-5. It is the USA version with an original price tag from Bullocks Wilshire in Los Angeles--made during 1952-1954. I may be able to drop it into the space now occupied by the KBN station and Hornby signal cabin.  Stay tuned.

That is one BEAUTIFUL station! Just curious: what is the original price on that tag?

AF special on the FCC (Filing Cabinet Central).

Sorry if I posted this one before,  couldn't remember if I had or not.

jhz563: Beautiful AF train truly a “file cabinet special !

Don

Tinplate Art

Station hasn't arrived yet and the price tag is hard to read from the screen, but I think it will be something like $12.95 . The 1955 USA Kibr catalog shows $13.50. Using the CPI index this would be equivalent to $130 in 2020.  I paid somewhat more but not outrageously more. 

By the way, I've posted this photo before, but in my opinion here is my most beautiful Kibri station--  the early 52-3 dating from 1929-1936. It cost me significantly more than the early 52-3.

Lew

Also very nice!

A classic JEP model, the "Boite à sel".    Call it salt box, box cab, steeple cab as you want, it is one of the most popular model made during 15 years in different variations from litho model of 1925 to 1935 steel embossed cabs, production ceased due to the war and it has not been reintroduced after.  It is a shortened model of the PO locomotive who where BB models, only Marklin made a correct model in I gauge, it will be for a next post....

Have a nice weekend,  Daniel

Thanks for the kind comments on my latest submissions.  Looks like my old age is catching up with me, or I'm too lazy to proof read.The final sentence on  my reply to Tinplate Art should have read:  "It cost me significantly more than the 52-5".  Lew

London Brighton & South Coast British tank loco. Has a Bassett-Lowke horse shoe type DC motor. I am unsure of the maker, but I showed this to Lew a few years ago and he thought it was probably a Leeds product.

Hi Tinplate Fans...here it is another weekend and its still raining in Texas.  Well I have to admit, that I am sort of excited about this posting.  I ordered this car from the Netherlands and with COVID it took nearly 2 months to get here.  So here goes.

Lewrail - I looked at your beautiful post of the JEP French Railways Postal Van and so I wanted to show you the Hornby version of the same car.  Note the clerestory roof which I am told was common on these cars IRL .  This one is French Hornby, and is lithographed on the end with France as the country of origin.  I can't really date it but all of the pictures I have of this car in the Hornby Companion Volume I have date it to pre-war.  It does  not appear post war at least not with the clerestory roof.  Not quite as long as the one Lewrail showed by JEP but given the similarity of color scheme, a reasonable representative for the Hornby line. 

Here is the side view, showing the "Postes Et Telegraphes" message on the side and in the lower right corner is lithographed a postal mail slot where one could deposit their letters. 

Here is an end view, emphasizing the clerestory roof line and showing the lithographed treatment of the ends. 

Best wishes for a very healthy weekend.

Don

It is a nice Hornby model Don, and the only one produced by Hornby. It dates from 1932-40 and is very representative of the models used by the French railways with that specific clerestory. Hornby Great Britain never produced one for the English market.

Jep has made many different and atractives models and many where included in sets. Here are some pre-war models.

Very best, Daniel

Hi Don,

Note that the JEP postal van is marked SNCF and operated on the old P-O Paris-Tour-Bordeaux route.  The Hornby is lettered for the prewar Etat system-- more specifically the A.L. or Alsace-Lorraine component. The prototype can be found at P. 95 of Lamming's incredible book on French Hornby and here is the photo. Lew Schneider

Here are some video clips I put together from running my Standard Gauge trains:

Lew / Daniel. Thank you both for the information on the French postal van and even prototype pictures. 

Best wishes

Don

Fatman

I have the Silver Link the Red/Cream Streamliner and the very rare Canadian Postwar MS set.

Still looking for the elusive green streamliner.  Lew

@lewrail posted:

Fatman

I have the Silver Link the Red/Cream Streamliner and the very rare Canadian Postwar MS set.

Still looking for the elusive green streamliner.  Lew

Your Hornby gathering skill is that of a Sensei Hornby Master Lew

That cabinet alone features most of my Hornby "Dream Team"

The elusive USA Hornby at top .. and not only one but several lol ..

Followed by Wittrocks under ( My guilty Danish pleasure)

PLM's ( Hachette?) AND Original ?

The No.3 CPR Hornby is the Star tho immensely hard to find ... never seen one for sale.

French Bugatti's .... sigh ... Inspirational cabinet from top to bottom Lew!

Lionel factory

Hi Fatman and any other Hornby fanatics

Thanks for your kind comments. The top Hornby USA freight consists of the Made in England freight cars with the British couplers.  The true USA Hornby freight is on the middle shelf and is very rare.  It can be identfied by Made in USA printed on the cars AND the USA couplers.  Some of the USA cars were returned to England after the USA factory closed and refitted with British couplers.

The PLM set with the coaches is Hachette, but the PLM loco in front is original (with the box).

The #3 CPR set is not shown in this recent photo so I assume you are referring to earlier photos or to the photos on my website. I believe I have the only CPR set box known. Here is a photo.

Congratulations. Not many can identify Wittrock!!

Lew Schneider

Love those postal vans!

Question for Lew: How rare are the Hornby American sets, of which you have several?

Hi Tinplate Art

Hornby made 3 USA sets-- 

1. Red clockwork locomotive Nr 2527 and 2 green passenger cars  

2.  Green locomotive Nr 2527 and 2 yellow passenger cars

3. Red locomotive 2527 and 3 freight cars

#2 is by far the hardest to find because of the green 2527. 

All 3 sets are rare Don't get tricked into acquiring the British rolling stock even though they look like the USA cars.

Check the couplers and look for "Made in USA" on either the passenger car ends or the freight car sides.  A particularly interesting British version has link couplers and the words Made in USA painted out.  I wrote articles on these trains many years ago for the TCA and Collecting Toy Trains magaine.

I would say that the locomotives appear once in every 5-10 years.  The USA rolling stock is easier to find.

Even though a Canadian catalogue that I have shows electric USA locomotives I've never seen or heard of one. Chris Graebe, the famous Hornby author, claims they are out there, but he's never seen one either.  Here's an interesting photo from my historical files when one of my Hornby stations was featured on the layout.

Lew

Hi @lewrail  Yep thats the one lol ... Pretty much the Holy Grail in Hornby collecting , thanks for sharing !

Oh and in that cabinet photo , is that a Canadian Silver Jubilee livery as well ? The green version far right just above the Silver 2509 rake ?  Also a very rare beasty!

I have only seen one in pictures from a concluded auction ...

Image borrowed from Lloyd Ralstons Toys sale

Of course Fatman that CPR "Silver Link" has the wrong tender.  As it turns out I have the box for the CPR set.  It is not labeled Nr 0 (Should have been MO) like the other Silver Links but rather "MS".  Perhaps the S stood for Special?  Who knows.

Lew

Scored a one bid wonder win on ePay just now for a cute little Japanese "Standard Gauge " Trains set ... little battery powered fellow from just after the war ( C1950 ) ... Luckily I already know who the manufacturer is with my being a member on the Sakai Trains forum

SO yes it IS a Sakai built set , but sold unbranded as a generic issue so others could market it as theirs

A Baltimore & Ohio Freight Set .. these came in different sets with different levels of track and accesories ... this one is a mid range with 3 wagons and Oval of track , you could also buy the loco with 2 passenger coaches & circle of track .. and a top tier version "Under and Over " with a figure eight track with pylons to elevate into one loop without a crossing.

Picked this up on eBay. Made from an American Flyer water tower. This is the same tower used by Bing, Ives and Flyer.

Steve

Another recent pick up. A *******ized British Marx Silver Link. Someone modified it with a JEP tender. 

Steve

@Steve "Papa" Eastman posted:

Picked this up on eBay. Made from an American Flyer water tower. This is the same tower used by Bing, Ives and Flyer.

Steve

Steve,

Actually, it is not the same tower that Bing sold.  Bing's was very similar, but yet different.  

So, the notable differences between the two:

1) The spout on the Bing tower comes out of the bottom of the tower and is soldered to the tower.  The spout swivels side to side, but not up and down.  The spout on the Flyer/Ives tower hooks on to the front and attaches to a string with weight and moves up and down, but not side to side.

2) The ladder on the Bing tower does not attach to the roof.  The ladder on the Flyer/Ives tower pokes through the roof with two tabs.

3) The tank on the Bing tower is attached to its bottom/base via solder. The tank on the Flyer/Ives tower is separate and removable from its bottom/base, with the tank being held in place by a long rod that on the unlighted Flyer/Ives (Ives never sold a lighted tower) goes to the top and attaches to the threaded underside of the finial.

4) The roof on the Bing tank has a hidden rim that simply slides into the tank.  The finial on this tank is soldered to the roof.  See #3 above for the means of attaching the Flyer/Ives roof.

Fatman, others...Great Sakai set and I love their boxes.  Since you opened the door on Japanese "tin" I thought I might post a few of my "floor train" collection, almost all from Japan in the 1960's or 70's.  Mostly gathered when I used to travel to Japan or Okinawa on Air Force business.  I love their lithography usually in wild color schemes.   All these are battery powered, and have lights, motion, and some have "mystery motion" whatever that is.

Here is a full train, modeled after their commuter trains or local branch services.  This is a floor toy, push only.

Like Fatman's B&O set, here is a very fanciful F-3 for the "Seaboard Coast Lines" no less.  Not sure if Seaboard ever actually had a "76" decorated F-3 but in 1976 lots of RR did do special paint jobs.  Box is all in English so this was clearly meant for the US or other English speaking markets.  Note cardboard on top just protects the attached horns.  Note price $6.96...not too bad for a toy this nice.

Finally, the most fanciful of the lot...the 4479 Steam Loco.  This has quite an action is battery powered and makes a (terrible sounding) whistle while it moves !   Side rods have motion and it has headlight as well. 

All of these are quite large.  The commuter train might pass as close to O'gauge but the steamer and the F-3 are much closed to Standard Gauge (US  Lionel standard gauge or AF wide gauge) or even G gauge.  I have quite a number of these floor toys from the golden age of Japanese tinplate but this is the first time I thought anyone might even be interested.

Don

I finally shot some video of my favorite Lionel tinplate train. I love those uncatalogued passenger cars.

@Don McErlean posted:

Fatman, others...Great Sakai set and I love their boxes.  Since you opened the door on Japanese "tin" I thought I might post a few of my "floor train" collection, almost all from Japan in the 1960's or 70's.  Mostly gathered when I used to travel to Japan or Okinawa on Air Force business.  I love their lithography usually in wild color schemes.   All these are battery powered, and have lights, motion, and some have "mystery motion" whatever that is.

Here is a full train, modeled after their commuter trains or local branch services.  This is a floor toy, push only.

Don

I motorized one of these.

Steve

Take a ride on my tinplate layout at the club....

Scott Smith

A shot of my 249 which is mated with a 2225T tender:

This is a late production version which dropped the E despite being equipped with a reversing e-unit. My understanding is the 265T tender came with freight sets, the coupler height being lower than the 225W that came with passenger sets. Why this one is paired with a 2225T, I'm not sure. It came in a set, so I presume it was boxed/delivered in this pairing.

PD

Great engine. The 249 and 249E is significant to me as it was the engine featured with “uncataloged” freight sets in and around 1938 featuring the larger lithographed “Ives transition” cars. Great find they are not common. 

Don