To LC+ or not LC+, that is the question

Usually, electronic repairs to LC is simply replacing the board, not much "upgrading" you can do.  You can get the board if you have one crap out.  All the daughter boards are soldered to the main board, and they're not offered as separate parts, so "repair" usually equals "replacement.

There is no chuff switch of any kind, it's generated on-board, so no way to change the chuff rate.  The smoke is all controlled by the board, so no way to do stuff like add smoke at idle, etc.  Basically, no upgrade path, so I never looked any closer.

In short, the LC+ is just a canned product for the most part.  You can do cosmetic stuff to the shell, and probably add track powered markers and class lights if desired.  Other than that, not much.

That's not to say it's not a decent product, just not one that really lends itself to add-on upgrades like the TMCC stuff.

4 Daughters,

As I recall, the 726 LC+ was roundly praised here. Several LC+ fans said it was the best of that line from Lionel. Old threads can be found with a search.

I have several LC+ locos, diesel and steam, and am a big fan.

I have three LC+ engines and am well pleased with all of them. They all worked well out of the box and continue to work well. The only drawback I have found so far is that if you want to run TMCC/Legacy engines with LC engines, you have at least two different remotes to juggle. I have a photographer's vest with a bunch of pockets, so I carry remotes around that way.

tncentrr posted:

I have three LC+ engines and am well pleased with all of them. They all worked well out of the box and continue to work well. The only drawback I have found so far is that if you want to run TMCC/Legacy engines with LC engines, you have at least two different remotes to juggle. I have a photographer's vest with a bunch of pockets, so I carry remotes around that way.

Does your photographer's vest have as many pockets as Harpo Marx jacket? LOL, Arnold 

All, thanks for the replies. Special thanks to GRJ's thoughtful response. I didn't realize replacement boards wer available.....at least that gives me some solace that if one craps out post-warranty, there's a way to bring it back to life. 

I also appreciate GRJ's points on upgrades. I like my LC+ Mikado for what it is. An engine with a simple user interface, many features of TMCC, but no means of enhancing it. That's OK with me for some of our "fleet."

My main concern about expanding beyond my first LC+ was the reports of potentially being dead-in-the-water after year 1.  I suppose I could always throw in ERR components if LC+ components/boards became unavailable, but I can do that NOW with my conventional WBB 726 and leave the option open for other enhancements like the Superchuffer.

Up to a few days ago, I was only running my 3 LC+ engines with light loads. Since then, I have not babied these engines as much, and they have done well, especially the LC+ Erie Camelback. It has heft and is a very good puller.

Here it is easily hauling 10 fairly heavy Postwar coal dump cars and a caboose with slow smooth power.

It could pull more, but can't only because of the reverse loop limitation. Arnold

I have had good luck with my LC+ engines, both steam and diesel. Pretty much all I will buy now. 

I have a LC+ 726-type Berkshire, and it is a fine looking and smooth running loco. 

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Up to a few days ago, I was only running my 3 LC+ engines with light loads. Since then, I have not babied these engines as much, and they have done well, especially the LC+ Erie Camelback. It has heft and is a very good puller.

Here it is easily hauling 10 fairly heavy Postwar coal dump cars and a caboose with slow smooth power.

It could pull more, but can't only because of the reverse loop limitation. Arnold

Love the train with the Postwar coal cars. A bit off topic, but since I started the thread, I guess I can steer it into the ditch.   I have 3 of those PW coal coars but the side won't stay up on any of them. What's your secret? I know I could tape or glue them, but I want to use them with my 497 Coaling Station that I just got working today.

My LC+ experience is only about two months old.  I have the Reading GP-7 and the Pennsy A5, both with Bluetooth.  I have been primarily post-war until now.  I have no desire to do the TMCC, DCC, Legacy, or any of the other fancy systems.  The LC+ locos match my post-war designs which I am pleased with.  

What LC+ does do is give me the ability to have some bells and whistles along with precise control.  By the way, the Bluetooth option is easier to operate than the remote that is supplied with LC+ locos.  

As for longevity, I can't even fathom a guess.  After reading Gunrunner John's post, I would speculate that the way the electronic boards are built, they should hold up well.  There's nothing to fool with, adjust, or add to, so not much damage can occur because you can't get into them.

My opinion is that Lionel hit on something good.  After watching Lionel prices go through the roof, over the years, it is refreshing to see that a product has been introduced to the lower and mid range buyer. 

For quite awhile, I wanted to get back into the hobby, but was riding the fence. Then in 2013 I saw the Lionchief sets, and got back in!

I recently acquired my sixth LC engine, the dazzling Santa Fe Super Chief set. I really like the LC/LC+product line.

My experience with Lionel service after the warranty expires hasn't been great.  Once that warranty runs out, they recommend finding a authorized service center to make repairs. The last few times I asked to send items in for out of warranty repair, I was told they aren't taking them at this time. There are also other forum members here that can help with repairs if or when needed.

If the item is still under warranty, Lionel service is good. Generally you'll receive most things back within a month or two after it's received.

raising4daughters posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Up to a few days ago, I was only running my 3 LC+ engines with light loads. Since then, I have not babied these engines as much, and they have done well, especially the LC+ Erie Camelback. It has heft and is a very good puller.

Here it is easily hauling 10 fairly heavy Postwar coal dump cars and a caboose with slow smooth power.

It could pull more, but can't only because of the reverse loop limitation. Arnold

Love the train with the Postwar coal cars. A bit off topic, but since I started the thread, I guess I can steer it into the ditch.   I have 3 of those PW coal coars but the side won't stay up on any of them. What's your secret? I know I could tape or glue them, but I want to use them with my 497 Coaling Station that I just got working today.

If you have the 3469 cars the trays are adjustable. As per Greenberg repair manual. 1. Loosen the screw holding the main gear so that the gear is free to turn. 2.close the swinging side and hold the car in dumping position. 3.tighten the gear screw Almost completely. 4. Hold the screw with the screwdriver to keep it from turning and push the car down to normal closed position.5. Now tighten the screw completely.  Once you get the hang of it, it should work with the side closing.

I was shocked to see what I had said might happen 2 years ago, happen.    All of the 2018 Legacy engines with Bluetooth can be controlled by a universal LC controller !!!   Now you can run your Legacy engines with Bluetooth using much of its abilities with just a power source and that controller (39.99 at most online stores now) …   Now if they will just make them run on DC!!!!!!!!!! LOL   Soon you may not have a choice to "LC+" or not!!!   But maybe it will be a LC++?  

Jim : )

carsntrains posted:

I was shocked to see what I had said might happen 2 years ago, happen.    All of the 2018 Legacy engines with Bluetooth can be controlled by a universal LC controller !!!   Now you can run your Legacy engines with Bluetooth using much of its abilities with just a power source and that controller (39.99 at most online stores now) …   Now if they will just make them run on DC!!!!!!!!!! LOL   Soon you may not have a choice to "LC+" or not!!!   But maybe it will be a LC++?  

Jim : )

 I'm interested in converting to battery power. Would LC+ lend itself well to a dead-rail track and converting the loco to battery power?

bobdavisnpf posted:

carsntrains posted:

I was shocked to see what I had said might happen 2 years ago, happen.    All of the 2018 Legacy engines with Bluetooth can be controlled by a universal LC controller !!!   Now you can run your Legacy engines with Bluetooth using much of its abilities with just a power source and that controller (39.99 at most online stores now) …   Now if they will just make them run on DC!!!!!!!!!! LOL   Soon you may not have a choice to "LC+" or not!!!   But maybe it will be a LC++?  

Jim : )

 I'm interested in converting to battery power. Would LC+ lend itself well to a dead-rail track and converting the loco to battery power?

I would think that there would be more affordable alternatives, like converting postwar engines costing less than $100 to battery power.

@bobdavisnpf I don't see why a LC+ couldn't be converted to battery power.  The electronics don't rely on "track ground" or any kind of signal traveling through the track.  And they can't know whether the power is coming from a battery or the track.  The only snag I can think of, is that for some reason the unit won't run on DC.

The 726 most nearly resembles the following locomotive - do a google search on toronto hamilton and buffalo railway 2-8-4

Lionchief w a battery, 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m_sI1nZVjZQ

raising4daughters posted:

I'm worried about LC+, though, because of the lack of aftermarket repair options. I don't see as many, if any, forum members performing LC+ repairs as TMCC (and, to date, I've only needed one TMCC engine repaired). My LHS won't touch LC+ technology.

 

 

I'd check with the repair guy at your local shop....wink wink. He's already repaired a couple.

raising4daughters posted:

As a semi-scaler with some conventional but mostly TMCC 1.0, I took the plunge and bought a LC+ engine last year (no Bluetooth). It's a big hit with the kids, and I like the Cruise/Odyseey-like operation. My TMCC 1.0-era engines lack cruise/odyssey except for the ones I've had upgraded.

I had always wanted a 726 and bought the WBB replica a few years ago with plans to upgrade it with ERR components. I still may go that route, but I like the looks and additional handheld and bluetooth option that comes with the LC+ 726.

I'm worried about LC+, though, because of the lack of aftermarket repair options. I don't see as many, if any, forum members performing LC+ repairs as TMCC (and, to date, I've only needed one TMCC engine repaired). My LHS won't touch LC+ technology.

Again, I really like the LC+ 726, but it appears there are no repair options after the 1-year warranty expires. Is my read on that accurate?  If so, I think I'll just upgrade my WBB with ERR Cruise/RS and throw in some Arttista figures.

Thoughts appreciated.

 

As was stated earlier, you can get replacement electronics. The fact repair means replacing boards is no different than "repairing" TMCC / Legacy / Protosound if something other than a plug in chip went out or a capacitor on a power supply board.

Talked to a Lionel rep last year and he told me you can't add LC or LC+ to older AC engines. He went so far as to say you couldn't do any older loco upgrades. I'm not to sure about that when it comes to DC motors. I've seen the motors and although they have an external flywheel, I didn't notice any obvious tach marks on the flywheel. Maybe it gets an internal feedback somehow? Would need someone with more knowledge than I have on this to answer that question.

zwbob posted:

raising4daughters posted:

I'm worried about LC+, though, because of the lack of aftermarket repair options. I don't see as many, if any, forum members performing LC+ repairs as TMCC (and, to date, I've only needed one TMCC engine repaired). My LHS won't touch LC+ technology.

 

 

I'd check with the repair guy at your local shop....wink wink. He's already repaired a couple.

Now there's some good news to start off 2019. I hear that guy is pretty good .

BTW, to be clear, I love LC and LC+.  I bought an LC Thomas set 4-5 years ago for our youngest when she was 6, and she took to it like a duck to water.  Based on that experience and the needs for a Mike and Chessie steamer in the fleet, I picked up the Chessie LC+ Mikado and love it. I think LC+ and LC+ with bluetooth are big-time homeruns for Lionel.

While many of us grew up and/or still are conventional, tethered-to-the-transformer operators, the next generation is not. I think even the carpet-central, seasonal around-the-tree sets are going to require a remote control or smartphone app, not just be an upgrade option. 

Had LC+ been around in 2002 when I started adding TMCC 1.0 engines to my grandfather's PW collection, I'd have jumped on it instead of TMCC.  To date, I haven't used TMCC for anything but engine control.  I just picked up an SC device for switch control down the road, but I have lived without all the other features that TMCC and now Legacy provide. I pretty much use TMCC 1.0 like LC+. 

No plans by any means to make wholesale change from TMCC to LC+. I run PW conventional and TMCC 1.0 and will likely add more LC+ to the fleet given the note above that my LHS can do LC+ repairs if needed. There are a few options I like in LC+ like the O27-sized B&O Alcos that aren't available in TMCC or Legacy.

raising4daughters posted:

here are a few options I like in LC+ like the O27-sized B&O Alcos that aren't available in TMCC or Legacy.

But they can be available in TMCC.

It occurred to me that there is a very good reason to have Postwar and LC+. To get Postwar trains to run smoothly, you need, among other things, well constructed benchwork, good track work and good wiring. Defects in these things need to be fixed to have a good running layout. By fixing them, you improve your layout.

LC+ in remote mode enables one to have a smooth running layout even if there are  defects in the layout causing voltage drops. There may be other modern operating systems I'm not familiar with that also enable trains to run smoothly despite such layout defects.  Arnold

Another plug for LC and LC+.  Sure, my permanent layout had TMCC and my about-to-be-finished layout will have TMCC, but for around the Christmas tree, in order to use handhelds and get sound, I need a command base with TMCC but not with LC and LC+. They definitely fill a niche if not bringing all the features of TMCC and Legacy.

As I've posted many times before, LC+ appeals to me as a PW conventional-only operator who has zero interest in other command systems.  Decent looking and running locos that can be run conventionally or with the supplied remote.

Hoping that Lionel brings us a winner by offering something new and exiting in the LC+ line. 

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

LC+ in remote mode enables one to have a smooth running layout even if there are  defects in the layout causing voltage drops. There may be other modern operating systems I'm not familiar with that also enable trains to run smoothly despite such layout defects.  Arnold

DCS explorer with PS2 and 3 locos does the same thing. I see it on my temporary Christmas layout. Conventional will change speed some even though I feed power to multiple lock ons. PS2 and 3 locos run at consistent speeds.

johnstrains posted:

As I've posted many times before, LC+ appeals to me as a PW conventional-only operator who has zero interest in other command systems.  Decent looking and running locos that can be run conventionally or with the supplied remote.

Hoping that Lionel brings us a winner by offering something new and exiting in the LC+ line. 

Same situation with me.  LC+ is my go-to for new motive power. 

Quietman posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

LC+ in remote mode enables one to have a smooth running layout even if there are  defects in the layout causing voltage drops. There may be other modern operating systems I'm not familiar with that also enable trains to run smoothly despite such layout defects.  Arnold

DCS explorer with PS2 and 3 locos does the same thing. I see it on my temporary Christmas layout. Conventional will change speed some even though I feed power to multiple lock ons. PS2 and 3 locos run at consistent speeds.

Is DCS Explorer possibly a free App, or is it a handheld remote?

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Quietman posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

LC+ in remote mode enables one to have a smooth running layout even if there are  defects in the layout causing voltage drops. There may be other modern operating systems I'm not familiar with that also enable trains to run smoothly despite such layout defects.  Arnold

DCS explorer with PS2 and 3 locos does the same thing. I see it on my temporary Christmas layout. Conventional will change speed some even though I feed power to multiple lock ons. PS2 and 3 locos run at consistent speeds.

Is DCS Explorer possibly a free App, or is it a handheld remote?

It operates with a free app and allows you to run up to three engines at the same time.

H1000 posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Quietman posted:

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

LC+ in remote mode enables one to have a smooth running layout even if there are  defects in the layout causing voltage drops. There may be other modern operating systems I'm not familiar with that also enable trains to run smoothly despite such layout defects.  Arnold

DCS explorer with PS2 and 3 locos does the same thing. I see it on my temporary Christmas layout. Conventional will change speed some even though I feed power to multiple lock ons. PS2 and 3 locos run at consistent speeds.

Is DCS Explorer possibly a free App, or is it a handheld remote?

It operates with a free app and allows you to run up to three engines at the same time.

In case Arnold isn't familiar  with it, you do need the DCS Explorer Wifi interface. The explorer is controlled with the free version of the DCS Wifi app (Android and iPhone versions). The paid for features in the App are for the full blown DCS system.

Thank you, H1000.

I also did a Forum search and see there is a whole thread on DCS Explorer. Since I have 3 MTH engines that are either PS 2 or 3, I'm going to look into this. If the trains operate in a similar way to LC+ in remote mode by mitigating the effects of voltage drops to achieve prototypically slow and steady speed, I'm interested. Arnold

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Thank you, H1000.

I also did a Forum search and see there is a whole thread on DCS Explorer. Since I have 3 MTH engines that are either PS 2 or 3, I'm going to look into this. If the trains operate in a similar way to LC+ in remote mode by mitigating the effects of voltage drops to achieve prototypically slow and steady speed, I'm interested. Arnold

Yes they creep. It makes it so easy to position a car on an operating track or net to an operating accessory. I power mine with a RW transformer set at 17.5 volts with a 5 amp fuse on the  input as the max current in is 6 amps and a transformer ckt breaker isn't fast enough..

I put a TVS 30V diode across the output terminals to protect the digital locos. Have the same TVS when running them conventionally, as this is just good practice.

One other thought:  the most recent steamers continue to blow smoke prototypically at rest.  Earlier LionChief Plus engines did not.

Jon

KOOLjock1 posted:

One other thought:  the most recent steamers continue to blow smoke prototypically at rest.  Earlier LionChief Plus engines did not.

Jon

I can vouch for that statement!  And the old ones beeped when you turn the power on without the controller on.  The newer ones chirp.  A lot less annoying! I have two older ones and one 2018 unit.   All of the Southern engines built in LC+.   Hoping for another one soon!  Or maybe get that little SW7 legacy engine.    EH but I do enjoy running all my LC  and LC+ on DC. 

Jim 

Buy it.  Don't look back.  I have 3 LC + including the 726 Berk.  I'm a postwar guy but none of my l+ locos are hangover regrets.  They all get run time  right alongside my premier postwar engines. 

bostonpete posted:

Buy it.  Don't look back.  I have 3 LC + including the 726 Berk.  I'm a postwar guy but none of my l+ locos are hangover regrets.  They all get run time  right alongside my premier postwar engines. 

Ditto for me, even to the extent that I also have 3 LC+ engines and many Postwar ones and love them all. But I also love my MTH, Williams and KLine. Arnold

"It operates with a free app and allows you to run up to three engines at the same time.

The DCS app requires the Explorer purchase as a separate sale, so just keep that modest additional expense in mind. The app is free. One of the advantages of LC and LC+ locos is that no other equipment is needed other than the remote that comes with the set or loco. Current production also has Bluetooth, for which the app is likewise free.  The Explorer comes with MTH sets, but separate sale PS3 locos do not come with an Explorer, which makes sense since you don't need multiple Explorers. Figure on about $100-120 I gather.

I mentioned the Bluetooth operation as being easier to operate than using the transmitter that comes with LC+ locos.  I didn't mention that the uncoupling command is so much simpler using the Bluetooth control.  I usually have my iPhone clipped to my belt at all times, so it's what I use to operate my LC+ locos.  When I forget to bring the phone down to the basement, I use the handheld controller.  To uncouple the loco, you must press two buttons.  One of the buttons, the center one,triggers the announcements.  The other two trigger the horn or bell.  I found that if I didn't press them in order and precisely, the announcement, bell or horn would sound and not stop until I turned track power off.  

Also the iPhone throttle is more precise than the handheld transmitter.