Does anyone know why the water car behind the Big Boy is backwards? The flag is facing the wrong direction and it looks goofy.
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Will Ebbert posted:Does anyone know why the water car behind the Big Boy is backwards? The flag is facing the wrong direction and it looks goofy.
Will,
The flag can only be facing in the right direction if the car is turned before the train heads back in the other direction. So, maybe it couldn't be turned.
Maybe so. I just figured with this being as big of a publicity thing as it is they would make everything perfect.
Will Ebbert posted:Maybe so. I just figured with this being as big of a publicity thing as it is they would make everything perfect.
Well, if you can't turn it, then, it can only be perfect half of the trip. Just think of all of those diesel locomotives crossing the entire USA with their flags backwards as you say. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it!
Personally, putting the flag on the tender and diesel locomotives is tacky. Leave Old Glory on flagpoles and on caskets of those who deserve it.
Okay, now let's think about this a moment. If you look at the opposite side of the Water Tender, the flag looks to be facing the correct way. So, they were probably put on there as such so the Star quadrant is in the same axis location on both sides.
Side note, if you look at US Military Use of Flags on their combat gear, the Stars Quadrant is always placed in the Upper Right Hand Side of the placement on gear ( primarily combat gear.) I have heard (although I can't confirm) that this indicates the action of the Flag Leading the way to battle.
Just a random view of the situation.
No the flag faces in opposite directions so it's either "wrong or right" on both sides. I just don't see why it wasn't turned in Cheyenne before being coupled to the engine in the first place.
Hay Will,
I understand how you feel about the direction of the American Flag on the canteen. As a construction worker of 45 years (electrical), all the trades always wore decaled flags, of OUR flag, on both sides of our hard hats and that seems to present a problem in itself, as to which direction the flag faces. I think that the canteen placement wasn't done in malice, but as a reminder of pride for ones Country, as the UNION PACIFIC R.R. displays. Makes me feel good everytime that I see the AMERICAN FLAG on their locomotives or anywhere else,"tacky or not", because I am proud of the country that I live in. And, yes I do agree with Dominick, but with all that's going on with our society today with the disrespect some people have for this country, it's nice to have that constant reminder of what we have. Those who disagree with our system should consider relocating "elsewhere", it's not perfect, but the ****ed best thing out there!!!
As Kelly said,"you're supposed to be looking at 4014", I know that I am!
John
Coordinator for the Raritan Valley Hi-Railers
(check out facebook of above name RVHR)
Member of The N.J. Hi-Railers
Retired Fireman for The New Hope & Ivyland R.R.
Consolidation #40
Retired Local 102 Journeyman Wireman
I would be less upset about flag units if UP would keep better care of removing the dirt and keeping up the paint. Somebody, say burning the flag could use the condition of UP's flag units as a justification.
Plus, showing too much of any symbol many times reduces the importance of said symbol.
I'm all for the flag personally. Show pride in this great country!
GREENRAIL posted:Okay, now let's think about this a moment. If you look at the opposite side of the Water Tender, the flag looks to be facing the correct way. So, they were probably put on there as such so the Star quadrant is in the same axis location on both sides.
Side note, if you look at US Military Use of Flags on their combat gear, the Stars Quadrant is always placed in the Upper Right Hand Side of the placement on gear ( primarily combat gear.) I have heard (although I can't confirm) that this indicates the action of the Flag Leading the way to battle.
Just a random view of the situation.
On ar-15 rifles military versions have flag forward, civilian model flag rearward, in retreat.
I don't see any flag. 
gunrunnerjohn posted:I don't see any flag.
US flag, no. A flag used in the run up to the Texas Revolution, yes!
JOHN GIULIANO: WELL STATED, and I agree 100%! As a US Army vereran (1962-65), I am always glad to see it displayed! I am also 100% sure the UP meant NO disrespect in positioning that water tender. Afterall, remember the very respectful final journey of President Bush 41, with that GREAT US Flag on the baggage car carrying our former President! The UP's patriotism should never be questioned!
Agree, the patriotism of the Union Pacific should never be questioned. And, Ole Glory can never be shown too much, no matter where so long as it is done with respect, and never in malice. The many patriotic, true American, corporations and organizations in our nation should always be encouraged to display said patriotism. As it will, should, always be with Her citizens. That goes for all in the Forum, no doubt. Honor, patriotism, love of country... willingness to defend from all threats, foreign and domestic...… Of the people, By the people, For the people..... Words we all recall and take to heart, doing so with pride of country. We are all Americans, and not all agree on everything. But, that is not why we love our America... it is because of what we have in our hearts.
"Come and Take It" Flag of the defenders of the Goliad Mission, Goliad, Texas in 1836. Buying time for Sam Houston and the Texican Army to raise forces and counter the invasion of Santa Anna's army. The phrase "Come and Take It" refers to the mission and the "Twin Sisters"...… two six pounders the defenders had within their walls, formerly in use against attacks by "Native American" indian warriors.
One of the same flags flying in front of our house beneath Ole Glory, every day.
Jesse TCA 12-68275
I wasn't questioning their patriotism, just why they didn't turn the car.
Will, not referring to your comment, but those of others. Yes, turning the water tender around may seem to be easy enough. But, not always when you do not have the room, facilities, or necessary trackage. When 3985 came through Chicago/Milwaukee in 2001, they had to run the 4-6-6-4 and consist up past Milwaukee to find a wye and be able to turn for heading South the next day. Not always an easy thing to do, or find available.
Jesse
Seems odd, but there is another country one has to think about concerning the build out of the UP-CP: the CSA. If it was not for the CSA and the Great Rebellion/War Between the States, the even we are celebrating this week may not have happened..... Or would have occurred under a different country, hence flag.
Dominic Mazoch posted:Seems odd, but there is another country one has to think about concerning the build out of the UP-CP: the CSA. If it was not for the CSA and the Great Rebellion/War Between the States, the even we are celebrating this week may not have happened..... Or would have occurred under a different country, hence flag.
Are you insane? Just out of curiosity.
SMD4 - Steve : To satisfy your curiosity, Dominic is not insane. Dominic has been reading about the history and politics at the time the transcontinental railroad was built, and Dominic's comments appear to be factual. Fortunately, the " what if " scenario Dominic mentioned did not happen. We are all drifting pretty far from the original posting about which way the flag is facing.
Guess we should also credit another country - England - since had we not been a colony of that country, the transcontinental railroad might never have been built!
Or perhaps France, for selling us a huge chunk of the land through which the transcontinental railroad passes? 
GREENRAIL posted:Okay, now let's think about this a moment. If you look at the opposite side of the Water Tender, the flag looks to be facing the correct way. So, they were probably put on there as such so the Star quadrant is in the same axis location on both sides.
Side note, if you look at US Military Use of Flags on their combat gear, the Stars Quadrant is always placed in the Upper Right Hand Side of the placement on gear ( primarily combat gear.) I have heard (although I can't confirm) that this indicates the action of the Flag Leading the way to battle.
Just a random view of the situation.
The reason for that placement of the flag (or so I have been told) is that it indicates the attitude of always go forward, never retreat, so the stars 'lead' in that configuration.
smd4 posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Seems odd, but there is another country one has to think about concerning the build out of the UP-CP: the CSA. If it was not for the CSA and the Great Rebellion/War Between the States, the even we are celebrating this week may not have happened..... Or would have occurred under a different country, hence flag.
Are you insane? Just out of curiosity.
In a sense, he has a point: the construction crews--especially on the UP--were organized along military lines because the organization worked and because the bosses all learned how to handle large groups of men and complex tasks in the war. The expansion of the understanding or organizational principles and operations during the ACW was really profound.
That said, I find it hard to thank the CSA for much of anything (see my avatar pic). The UP was named the UNION Pacific for a very good reason. Still, the labor contribution of thousands of Confederate vets cannot be dismissed.
smd4 posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:Seems odd, but there is another country one has to think about concerning the build out of the UP-CP: the CSA. If it was not for the CSA and the Great Rebellion/War Between the States, the even we are celebrating this week may not have happened..... Or would have occurred under a different country, hence flag.
Are you insane? Just out of curiosity.
He isn't insane, historically he is correct. The act that authorized the transcontinental railroad passed congress in 1862, in the middle of the civil war (and at a time, mind you, where things weren't going so well for the Union and the outcome of the war was not assured at all, especially if England in fact did come in on the side of the confederacy).Acts had been proposed before the Civil war to build it but people in congress balked at the generous terms for the railroads building it. I don't remember all the details, but basically the fear was that the western areas could fall to the Confederates because they were isolated, and in a (possible) world where the CSA ended up existing, it would allow the Union side to keep California and the west. It was similar in some ways to how Eisenhower got the interstate highway bill through congress, he sold the opposition that it was about national defense, about being able to evacuate people from cities and more importantly, move troops and gear via the highways, and at one of the most heightened parts of the Cold War, it worked.
Only the flag on the fireman's side is displayed "incorrectly:"
4 U.S. Code § 7(I)
When displayed either horizontally or vertically against a wall, the union should be uppermost and to the flag’s own right, that is, to the observer’s left. When displayed in a window, the flag should be displayed in the same way, with the union or blue field to the left of the observer in the street.
Here's my $.02 cents for what its worth:
If you look at the above US Code. Paragraph (b) says this:
(b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.
Soooo.....Now what?
I like the fact that the flags are on the UP's equipment.
Let us just be glad OUR flag and both the Union and the Union Pacific have survived! In many ways, we are still reaping the horrors of the Civil War and its aftermath.
bigkid posted:He isn't insane, historically he is correct. The act that authorized the transcontinental railroad passed congress in 1862, in the middle of the civil war (and at a time, mind you, where things weren't going so well for the Union and the outcome of the war was not assured at all, especially if England in fact did come in on the side of the confederacy).Acts had been proposed before the Civil war to build it but people in congress balked at the generous terms for the railroads building it. I don't remember all the details, but basically the fear was that the western areas could fall to the Confederates because they were isolated, and in a (possible) world where the CSA ended up existing, it would allow the Union side to keep California and the west. It was similar in some ways to how Eisenhower got the interstate highway bill through congress, he sold the opposition that it was about national defense, about being able to evacuate people from cities and more importantly, move troops and gear via the highways, and at one of the most heightened parts of the Cold War, it worked.
The people in congress who balked were the Southern Reps and Senators who insisted the route originate in the South, despite the dearth of need for it there, in order to preserve the political power necessary to perpetuate slavery by expanding it into new territories.
smd4 posted:Guess we should also credit another country - England - since had we not been a colony of that country, the transcontinental railroad might never have been built!
Or perhaps France, for selling us a huge chunk of the land through which the transcontinental railroad passes?
Because of the Trent Incident, the UK came so close to declaring war against the Union. One of the unsong heroes of the Great Rebellion for Union was PRINCE ALBERT. His was able to defuse anger in the UK. If the UK did come in on the side of the CSA, the UK itself would have gone into its own civil war.....
So we do not have to have a tender with a unidirectional Union Jack!
Dominic Mazoch posted:smd4 posted:Guess we should also credit another country - England - since had we not been a colony of that country, the transcontinental railroad might never have been built!
Or perhaps France, for selling us a huge chunk of the land through which the transcontinental railroad passes?
Because of the Trent Incident, the UK came so close to declaring war against the Union. One of the unsong heroes of the Great Rebellion for Union was PRINCE ALBERT. His was able to defuse anger in the UK. If the UK did come in on the side of the CSA, the UK itself would have gone into its own civil war.....
So we do not have to have a tender with a unidirectional Union Jack!
England did toy with coming into the conflict on the side of the CSA, manufacturers saw an area rich in agricultural resources England could use, and a place with relatively little manufacturing who would buy English goods (and the Union states were a burgeoning economic rival to England). It is also true that support for the CSA was a lot more prevalent among the upper classes, most people in England were pretty anti slavery, some part on moral grounds, the other part was fear of competition from slave labor were the south to industrialize, so there would have been a rift, plus England was already economically damaged from having fought the Crimean war, and people there were wary if England ended up in another big war of the consequences in terms of taxes and inflation and the like. The biggest reason was that England basically couldn't afford to lose the agriculture products they got from the midwest grain belt, they had had bad harvests and depended on exports from the US to be able to feed their population.Though that doesn't change the fact that the Trent incident could have exploded and England decided to declare war on the US (Albert at the time was dying of Typhoid I believe, but he still was the chief architect of a letter to the US government that allowed for cooler heads to prevail, to allow the US to let the diplomats go without having to formally apologize while saving face for England for having stood up to what they saw as an illegal action).
palallin posted:bigkid posted:He isn't insane, historically he is correct. The act that authorized the transcontinental railroad passed congress in 1862, in the middle of the civil war (and at a time, mind you, where things weren't going so well for the Union and the outcome of the war was not assured at all, especially if England in fact did come in on the side of the confederacy).Acts had been proposed before the Civil war to build it but people in congress balked at the generous terms for the railroads building it. I don't remember all the details, but basically the fear was that the western areas could fall to the Confederates because they were isolated, and in a (possible) world where the CSA ended up existing, it would allow the Union side to keep California and the west. It was similar in some ways to how Eisenhower got the interstate highway bill through congress, he sold the opposition that it was about national defense, about being able to evacuate people from cities and more importantly, move troops and gear via the highways, and at one of the most heightened parts of the Cold War, it worked.
The people in congress who balked were the Southern Reps and Senators who insisted the route originate in the South, despite the dearth of need for it there, in order to preserve the political power necessary to perpetuate slavery by expanding it into new territories.
Were not NM and AZ CSA territories at the beginning of the War? OR territory was leaning CSA. And were there not a question about CA?
Drift from tender flag? Yes. But this thread is showing that the UP-CP line was not built in a vacuum. But the celebration of it today is being done in the same.
