A question in regards to 4014, and I'll have to ask Ed the next time I talk to him is, How do they plan to fire it? Are they going to leave it a coal burner, which doesn't seem like UP practice, or convert to oil? I read in a Kratville book some time ago they converted 4005 (I believe) to oil firing and it was a failed experiment do to the garage size firebox and the oil burners caused uneven heating. It was converted back to coal a short time later.
Will be converted to oil per UP. As for other questions they have been answered in previous 4014 threads but don't recall what they were. I am sure someone else can shed more light.
Chuck Sartor posted:A question in regards to 4014, and I'll have to ask Ed the next time I talk to him is, How do they plan to fire it?
They will have to convert it to oil burning.
Are they going to leave it a coal burner, which doesn't seem like UP practice, or convert to oil?
It would then be restricted to operation only between Cheyenne and Laramie, doe to all the fires it would set, just like 3985 did prior to her conversion to oil burning.
I read in a Kratville book some time ago they converted 4005 (I believe) to oil firing and it was a failed experiment do to the garage size firebox and the oil burners caused uneven heating. It was converted back to coal a short time later.
Not really. In discussing the 4005 with some of the old heads, back in the 1960s and 1970s, the 4005 was NOT a "failed experiment", no matter WHAY Mr. Kratville stated in his book. Once the addition of much more firebrick was added and the burner was properly aligned, the problem with weeping staybolts was pretty much solved. Those that actually worked as Fireman on 4005 said that she really fired pretty well, "Once you got the hang of it."
The main reason that 4005 was converted back to coal burning was the logistics of refueling 4000 class locomotives working on Sherman Hill, westbound between Cheyenne and Laramie, i.e. there was no oil fueling facilities on "The Hill"! All other oil burning locomotive classes could operate westbound over Sherman Hill without refueling, but the 4005 used so much fuel with a full tonnage train, she couldn't easily make it all the way to Laramie. All the other 4000 class locomotives could refuel with coal on Sherman Hill.
Since the UP was not about to invest THAT much money for a maned steam plant and heated oil storage facilities up on Sherman Hill, for only one class of locomotives (if all the other 4000s had been converted to oil burning). The 4005 was subsequently converted back to coal burning, after the UP Mechanical Department had learned what the needed.
Matt01 posted:844, Challenger, BigBoy ...... all of these engines were built in New York? And then delivered to UP out there? Steam locomotive production was only done in the industrial northeastern U.S.?Matt Ryan
Yes - 844, 3985 and 4014 all were built in Schenectady, NY by Alco.
Steam locomotives were produced at:
Alco - Schenectady, NY
Baldwin - Eddystone, PA
Lima - Lima, OH
Pennsylvania RR Juniata Shops - Altoona, PA
Reading Company - Reading, PA
There are more builders/shops/locations but the above are the major players in the later steam era. So yes, most builders were located in the northeastern USA although I'd consider Lima to be midwestern.
Hot Water posted:Chuck Sartor posted:I would like to see 3985 also, along with everyone else. The reason given was the super heater has been trashed.
After completely hydro-testing each individual superheater unit, they were all loaded on a flat car, and push outside, totally unprotected from the elements. After about 3 years, they reduced themselves to scrap, and were "disposed of".
I'm no mechanical expert, but I would think a new one could be fabricated.
Yes, however all new return bends and ball-socket ends will have to be made.
I think for what ever reason the 3985 is not Ed's favorite engine.
Definitely true! He has manufactured many different excuses for why the 3985 was stuffed into the rear stall of the roundhouse, and slowly dismantled. The latest "ecplaination" was "3985 was a slippery locomotive, and tended to wheel slips." The biggest reason for the hatred for 3985 is two fold; A) it was totally restored by UP employee volunteers, and B) previous manager Steve Lee has always been famously associated with 3985.
But remember, things can always change as time goes on.
Funny part is on the Wikipedia page for UP 3985 it has the following quote:
"Union Pacific senior manager of Heritage Operations Ed Dickens Jr. announced in February 2016 about UP 3985 possibly returning to excursion service. If it does return to service, it will become the world's 2nd largest operating steam locomotive, as Union Pacific 4014 will displace UP 3985 as the world's largest operating steam locomotive."
And yes, I note the wiggle room as Mr. Dickens in above quote says "If it does return to service..." so that is not a promise it will happen thanks to the inclusion of the word 'if'. Shame that 3985 has suffered loss of the superheaters - more time and $$$ required to return it to serviceable condition now.
645 posted:Yes - 844, 3985 and 4014 all were built in Schenectady, NY by Alco.
Steam locomotives were produced at:
And IMHO, some of the absolute finest,the Norfolk and Western Railway - Roanoke, Virginia! BTW, in Southeastern USA.
645 posted:So yes, most builders were located in the northeastern USA although I'd consider Lima to be midwestern.
That's OK. Most of us in Ohio consider ourselves part of the Midwest as well. 
645 posted:And yes, I note the wiggle room as Mr. Dickens in above quote says "If it does return to service..." so that is not a promise it will happen thanks to the inclusion of the word 'if'. Shame that 3985 has suffered loss of the superheaters - more time and $$$ required to return it to serviceable condition now.
The current manager has stated both privately, and publicly, that "3985 will NEVER run, as long as I'm in charge!". I know more than a few people that have heard him state just that.
Matt01 posted:844, Challenger, BigBoy ...... all of these engines were built in New York? And then delivered to UP out there? Steam locomotive production was only done in the industrial northeastern U.S.?Matt Ryan
The answer to that would be (more or less) yes, that's where the material infrastructure and labor was.
Lima Locomotive Works: Lima, Ohio
Baldwin Locomotive Works: Eddystone, Pennsylvania
American Locomotive Company (a merger of 7 eastern locomotive builders) : Schenectady, New York
Of course, you had the N&W rolling their own...
Rusty
Gilly@N&W posted:645 posted:Yes - 844, 3985 and 4014 all were built in Schenectady, NY by Alco.
Steam locomotives were produced at:
Alco - Schenectady, NY
Baldwin - Eddystone, PA
Lima - Lima, OH
Pennsylvania RR Juniata Shops - Altoona, PA
Reading Company - Reading, PA
And IMHO, some of the absolute finest,the Norfolk and Western Railway - Roanoke, Virginia!
If you are going to include railroad owned shops that built locomotives, I have a feeling there are many locations missing from this list.
Chuck Sartor posted:they converted 4005 (I believe) to oil firing and it was a failed experiment do to the garage size firebox and the oil burners caused uneven heating. It was converted back to coal a short time later.
No one seems to recall that Western Pacific's large 2-8-8-2's (137,000 lb TE) ran their whole lives as oil burners, so in this case, size doesn't matter.
Hot Water posted:645 posted:And yes, I note the wiggle room as Mr. Dickens in above quote says "If it does return to service..." so that is not a promise it will happen thanks to the inclusion of the word 'if'. Shame that 3985 has suffered loss of the superheaters - more time and $$$ required to return it to serviceable condition now.
The current manager has stated both privately, and publicly, that "3985 will NEVER run, as long as I'm in charge!". I know more than a few people that have heard him state just that.
I do not know all of the issues and drama surrounding this...but why doesn't this current manager want the 3985 to run anymore? Matt
See Hot Water's post above.
Mark your Calendars - for 2017 26th Annual Denver Post Cheyenne Frontier Days Train.
Gary /Railfan
Attachments
Kelly Anderson posted:Chuck Sartor posted:they converted 4005 (I believe) to oil firing and it was a failed experiment do to the garage size firebox and the oil burners caused uneven heating. It was converted back to coal a short time later.
No one seems to recall that Western Pacific's large 2-8-8-2's (137,000 lb TE) ran their whole lives as oil burners, so in this case, size doesn't matter.
A better comparison is the Northern Pacific/Spokane, Portland & Seattle 4-6-6-4's. On the NP they were coal fired, while the SP&S ones were oil fired. The thing that is different between them and the UP 4005 was that the SP&S engines were designed as oil burners, and their fire box grate was two square feet larger than in the UP 4005, So, yes, size isn't as important as it has been made to seem.
Also remember, as Hotwater pointed out, that once the UP mechanical department made some adjustments the 4005 worked fine. It was fueling/operational considerations (and the coal strike ending) that ended the experiment.
Stuart
The conductor's uniform in that last post got me wondering, does UP pay for these (I assume reproduction) conductor's uniforms or is that something the people do out of pocket? Just wondering...
p51 posted:The conductor's uniform in that last post got me wondering, does UP pay for these (I assume reproduction) conductor's uniforms or is that something the people do out of pocket? Just wondering...
The UP pays for the authentic/original "passenger service" uniform, including alterations and cleaning of them. I remember the late Reed Jackson had at least two uniforms and many white dress shirts.
Speaking of Reed Jackson, His Father Bob was a Special Detective for the Rio Grande in Denver, and escorted me out of the yards back in the 70's and 80's more than once and threatened me, one more time and off to jail I go! (he never caught me again, or deliberately looked the other way.
) Years later he was a Lionel customer at the old Mizell's train store and I was helping him, and said I looked familiar............I'm surprised he remembered as he usually only saw the back side of me as his foot was kicking my a## out of the property!
Steam locomotives were built in company shops, outside of the North Eastern part of the USA. Examples: Great Northern built their R2 2-8-8-2's in the Hillyard Shops (Spokane, WA) and the Burlington Route built their O5 4-8-4's #'s 5608-5634 at their West Burlington, IA shops, as well as two 4-6-4's, #3012 and streamlined Aeolus #4001. Milwaukee Road built a 4-8-4 in their Milwaukee Shops in 1930. Although NE, the Pennsy built a batch of steam locomotives in their Altoona Works, like half the J1 2-10-4's.
I am sure there are quite few additional examples that don't come to mind, immediately.
Hot Water posted:p51 posted:The conductor's uniform in that last post got me wondering, does UP pay for these (I assume reproduction) conductor's uniforms or is that something the people do out of pocket? Just wondering...
The UP pays for the authentic/original "passenger service" uniform, including alterations and cleaning of them. I remember the late Reed Jackson had at least two uniforms and many white dress shirts.
Thanks for the info. While I'd thought that UP might have paid for this, you just never know as it's not impossible for the employees to have built up these uniforms out of pocket (as all you need is money to get one of your own, newly-made).
mark s posted:Steam locomotives were built in company shops, outside of the North Eastern part of the USA. Examples: Great Northern built their R2 2-8-8-2's in the Hillyard Shops (Spokane, WA) and the Burlington Route built their O5 4-8-4's #'s 5608-5634 at their West Burlington, IA shops, as well as two 4-6-4's, #3012 and streamlined Aeolus #4001. Milwaukee Road built a 4-8-4 in their Milwaukee Shops in 1930. Although NE, the Pennsy built a batch of steam locomotives in their Altoona Works, like half the J1 2-10-4's.
I am sure there are quite few additional examples that don't come to mind, immediately.
The first eight (5600-5607)of the Q's O5's were built by Baldwin, 5608-5620 had Baldwin built boilers. Can't find any documentation on the boilers of 5621-5635.
The S4's 3000-3011 were built by Baldwin and the 3012 had a boiler built by Baldwin.
Rusty
Hot Water posted:645 posted:And yes, I note the wiggle room as Mr. Dickens in above quote says "If it does return to service..." so that is not a promise it will happen thanks to the inclusion of the word 'if'. Shame that 3985 has suffered loss of the superheaters - more time and $$$ required to return it to serviceable condition now.
The current manager has stated both privately, and publicly, that "3985 will NEVER run, as long as I'm in charge!". I know more than a few people that have heard him state just that.
But suppose the powers that be in Omaha tells him to put 3985 back into service.......! Not that they will, but........!
Dominic Mazoch posted:Hot Water posted:645 posted:And yes, I note the wiggle room as Mr. Dickens in above quote says "If it does return to service..." so that is not a promise it will happen thanks to the inclusion of the word 'if'. Shame that 3985 has suffered loss of the superheaters - more time and $$$ required to return it to serviceable condition now.
The current manager has stated both privately, and publicly, that "3985 will NEVER run, as long as I'm in charge!". I know more than a few people that have heard him state just that.
But suppose the powers that be in Omaha tells him to put 3985 back into service.......! Not that they will, but........!
Sigh,,,,,,,,another "what if question"?
Dominic Mazoch posted:Hot Water posted:645 posted:And yes, I note the wiggle room as Mr. Dickens in above quote says "If it does return to service..." so that is not a promise it will happen thanks to the inclusion of the word 'if'. Shame that 3985 has suffered loss of the superheaters - more time and $$$ required to return it to serviceable condition now.
The current manager has stated both privately, and publicly, that "3985 will NEVER run, as long as I'm in charge!". I know more than a few people that have heard him state just that.
But suppose the powers that be in Omaha tells him to put 3985 back into service.......! Not that they will, but........!
Reality check. It is now likely that Ed isn't going anywhere. He's in charge of the UP steam shop. 4014 is the up next for rebuild. When 4014 is up and running it will be at least as impressive as 3985. Like it or not that is how it is until Ed decides to move on.
Well restoring a 4000 will definitely be something that no one thought we would ever see, hopefully we will. Personally I love/prefer the 3985 but it's not my railroad. But I do hope they succeed with this endeavor and carry on the fine history and tradition of Union Pacific Steam. Time will tell.
Well, Frontier Days have come and gone and it seems it went off without a hitch. My question is now post this set of runs what is going on in the shop with 844? Are there any adjustments being made and during the run was the locomotive properly attended too e.g. frequency and duration of blowdowns, fuel used etc when it comes to standard maintenance?
Thanks!
Allegheny posted:Well, Frontier Days have come and gone and it seems it went off without a hitch. My question is now post this set of runs what is going on in the shop with 844? Are there any adjustments being made and during the run was the locomotive properly attended too e.g. frequency and duration of blowdowns, fuel used etc when it comes to standard maintenance?
Thanks!
All very good questions, however I don't think you will be receiveing accurate answers anytime soon.
FWIW ..... I don't think this hour long presentation by Ed Dickens was posted here ......
"On 7/22/16, The Cheyenne Frontier Days train guests were invited to the special presentation by Union Pacific Steam engineer/Manager Ed Dickens, .... "
Is all your guys have to do is sit and ask what if etc questions about the steam program? Why don't you guys just sit back and wait for some official up announcements?
ironlake2 posted:Is all your guys have to do is sit and ask what if etc questions about the steam program? Why don't you guys just sit back and wait for some official up announcements?
because when UP makes any kind of announcement it is a political correct management spin, of only what they want you to hear and see.
Don't even pretend to understand much of what gets posted in this particular OGR forum.
"Character assassination" is a term that comes to mind though.
Dickens seems an excellent ambassador for UP!
Heck, maybe, just maybe, he actually DID make a mistake here and there. Maybe. But 844, despite all the sniping, ran "on time." Hard to believe that could have happened with all the innuendo and outright slander reported here. Hope 4014 does too.
Say . . . has the roast crow been served yet?
A lot of silence about the 4014. They have less than three years to get her, er, it running. If so, will the 4014 be converted to oil. Popcorn in the microwave!
bigdodgetrain posted:ironlake2 posted:Is all your guys have to do is sit and ask what if etc questions about the steam program? Why don't you guys just sit back and wait for some official up announcements?
because when UP makes any kind of announcement it is a political correct management spin, of only what they want you to hear and see.
But, what else do we have to go on?
Certainly not the "Kool-Aid" of internet experts.
I look forward to hearing the hopeful plans concerning 4014. I would personally like to .... some day .... see an engineer and fireman start this powerful machine off from a stop, and go down the rails.
(Give me an excuse to see what states like Wyoming look like, too)
I'm really glad UP is going to do this (if, that's the case)
UP 4014 was in revenue service as of 08-25-2015 - here's proof:
UP 4014 on NS at Germantown, TN 08-25-2015 
Possible it may be in storage now with the traffic downturn though...
Oh - you talking about the OTHER 4014 that UP has? 
I think the steamer is officially UPP 4014.
To bad we cannot get a C&O H8 back under steam, and to see which one is the best in a "steam off".
Dominic Mazoch posted:To bad we cannot get a C&O H8 back under steam
The world is filled with enough ugly things in it, without us adding to them.
Given that the C&O H8 is the heaviest steam locomotive ever produced (yes, it is heavier and more powerful than a Big Boy) there are very few places where it could be run.
Nice idea, but not very practical.
Terry Danks posted:Don't even pretend to understand much of what gets posted in this particular OGR forum
Say . . . has the roast crow been served yet?
I agree, but there were some apparent issues:
- UP was without running steam for more than a couple of years.
- Ed had some legal issues that were in the press.
I have no clue about any of this, either, though. But the above points are indeed facts. The question must then be asked, at what point will the bashing stop? 844 is running and that didn't slow the usual suspects down much. So, will it take 4014 running again?
Unlike some, if it means that 4014 gets the work and will indeed be running, I'm fine with 3985 staying cold and am quite baffled that anyone would think that's a bad thing (again, if indeed 4014 does actually get running).
p51 posted:at what point will the bashing stop?
I guess once it's been shown that he can competently run the steam program, without alienating a large portion of his staff, while keeping the equipment meticulously maintained, and while safely operating the locomotive(s) over the long term.
