jhz563 posted:844 is currently having firebox sections replaced. New material is slightly thicker than original due to better material availability and to allow for a small amount of wastage while in service.
And according to Ed it needs new rods & driver axles, tender baffles rebuilt, new shop to work in, new shiny fasteners, more chrome, Led lighting, digital gauges, Waffen SS style uniforms (those guys got the cool lightning bolts on their collars), self cooling seats, big muffler etc.
Personally I have a lot of respect for Hot water and Rich. These guys know for a fact what it takes to operate a mainline steam excursion. I'm not certain that Ed has what it takes to operate a fleet of steamers let alone one. This is why I was asking the question in the beginning of this topic. One other thing I'd like to touch on, if you don't like the topic or what's being said in the topic don't reply! Why waist your time on something when you don't have anything good to say?
Anyhow I appreciate the information guys.
Thanks
dkdkrd
611.....1225....765...and a few others.......we're happy over here!
2016. Gonna be a great year!
KD
Certainly something to be said for a well run volunteer operation, where ( for the most part) politics are put aside and hearts are in the right place.
Now pass me the popcorn.
jmiller320 posted:Glad the Forum lets another ED bashing Forum run it's course. It's funny how when Rich agrees with the topic it stays up, but when it's something he doesn't like it gets taken down right away. Way to keep it real.
Did it ever occur to you that there is a good reason why any mention of the UP steam program draws the comments that it does? Open your eyes and put down the Koolaid.
It's really very simple...for the first time in the history of the Union Pacific Railroad, they have no steam locomotive capable of running, yet they still have a Steam Department. If that Steam Department is not capable of fielding even ONE of the three steam locomotives they own, something is seriously wrong in the Steam Department. And it isn't the old crew's fault, as E.D. would like you to believe.
There are organizations that work only a couple of days a week with unpaid volunteers that have accomplished more in the last two years than Union Pacific has in the last four, and UP has a full-time staff working 40 hours a week. I'm talking about the organizations behind 765 and 611 and 4449, just to name a few. There are others.
Experienced people throughout the steam community see what is going on in Cheyenne and just shake their heads.
If I win the 1.5 billion I will pay to fix all three of the UP steam locomotives.
Brandon Cole posted:Why waist your time on something when you don't have anything good to say?
Because the world isn't all "good"...just like your spelling?
So, let's turn your quote around and ask, if there is nothing good to say, why all of the Ed bashing?
Why isn't "When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle." being adhered to?
Sometimes, this place reads like a grocery store tabloid and nobody can get a fair shake. Somebody posts an opinion and everybody jumps on the bandwagon whether they actually know anything about the subject matter or not. Very sad.
JMILLER320 is one of the few that seem to have clear idea of what is going on.
Mill City posted:steam fanIn all fairness, every time a thread comes up and someone mentions UP steam, it usually turns into a bashing match and the thread gets deleted.
Perhaps. And rarely does the dialog vary. But it's at least entertaining. Popcorn anyone?
But .... it does sometimes change. Some of Ed Dickens most vocal critics change their public interpretation of known facts .... whenever it's needed to fit their narrative.
For some reason ..... there is some BS'ing going on.
But, yes .... it certainly is entertaining!
OGR Webmaster posted:jmiller320 posted:Glad the Forum lets another ED bashing Forum run it's course. It's funny how when Rich agrees with the topic it stays up, but when it's something he doesn't like it gets taken down right away. Way to keep it real.
Did it ever occur to you that there is a good reason why any mention of the UP steam program draws the comments that it does? Open your eyes and put down the Koolaid.
I appears that the Koolaid Drinkers are all making it with HOTWATER. Every posting about the Union Pacific steam Programs turn out the same way. A few disgruntled people go on the attack on Ed and the program. Everything they report is just hearsay and they can't back anything they say. Sure there has been a big turn over in the steam Shop and the only side we here on the Forum is it's ED's fault. Like it was stated earlier there are three sides to every story. The problem is we only hear one side and you and the other Ed haters continue to dog pile on the comments. What really needs to be answered is why people like Hotwater, you and the other Ed Haters are not working for the Union Pacific steam program since it appears there are only a hand full of experts out there.
Big Jim posted:Brandon Cole posted:Why waist your time on something when you don't have anything good to say?
Because the world isn't all "good"...just like your spelling?
So, let's turn your quote around and ask, if there is nothing good to say, why all of the Ed bashing?
Why isn't "When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle." being adhered to?Sometimes, this place reads like a grocery store tabloid and nobody can get a fair shake. Somebody posts an opinion and everybody jumps on the bandwagon whether they actually know anything about the subject matter or not. Very sad.
JMILLER320 is one of the few that seem to have clear idea of what is going on.
Wow didn't know the grammar police would get involved. I'm not perfect I'll admit it.
Well, I guess it is time for me to defer to MARTYE and JMILLER320, as they both seem to have most of the "answers". MARTYE is apparently not aware that more than a few members of the previous UP Steam Crew, as well as more than one member of the current crew (including the current manager about two years ago), have been posting on Trainorders.com, over the past 3 to 4 years.
JMILLER320 has apparently visited the Cheyenne Steam Shop many times, over the past 4 years, and must have first hand experience in main line steam locomotive maintenance & repairs, in order to comment on the present condition of both 844 and 3985.
Enough with rumor and innuendo, I prefer to stick with the facts, as witnessed by myself, and fellow members of the previous UP Steam Crew.
I know little about steam and absolutely nothing about the UP steam program other than the numbers of some of engines they have (like 844, 3985 and 4014), and we went to see the 844 (I think it was) when it came to town many years ago ('80s I think?). I do have a question though, when was the last time a UP steamer was running (under it's own power) on the rails?
Hot Water posted:Tranz4mr posted:Ed Dickens will be speaking at the Rocky Mountain Train Show on March 5th.
Speaking about WHAT?
Wasn't Boardman, the head of Amtrak, there at the last one? Sensing a trend maybe?
rtr12 posted:I know little about steam and absolutely nothing about the UP steam program other than the numbers of some of engines they have (like 844, 3985 and 4014), and we went to see the 844 (I think it was) when it came to town many years ago ('80s I think?). I do have a question though, when was the last time a UP steamer was running (under it's own power) on the rails?
July 2013, was the last operation of UP 844, as I recall.
Hot Water posted:Well, I guess it is time for me to defer to MARTYE and JMILLER320, as they both seem to have most of the "answers". MARTYE is apparently not aware that more than a few members of the previous UP Steam Crew, as well as more than one member of the current crew (including the current manager about two years ago), have been posting on Trainorders.com, over the past 3 to 4 years.
JMILLER320 has apparently visited the Cheyenne Steam Shop many times, over the past 4 years, and must have first hand experience in main line steam locomotive maintenance & repairs, in order to comment on the present condition of both 844 and 3985.
Enough with rumor and innuendo, I prefer to stick with the facts, as witnessed by myself, and fellow members of the previous UP Steam Crew.
I have never been to The Cheyenne Steam Shop. I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express in Cheyenne once. Like it has been said before, there are three sides to every story. Unfortunately all you do is spread rumor's and innuendo about Ed Dickens and the steam Program. I have worked with the public long enough to recognize someone with an axe to grind. Just look in the mirror if you want to know who I'm suggesting. You hung you hope that Ed would be fired after the lawsuit. Too bad a Judge ruled it was frivolous and threw it out and don't think that the other ridiculous lawsuit wont be tossed as well. I don't subscribe to Trainorders.com, but I have read some of the posting you have put there. You really sound like a disgruntled former employee that didn't get their way.
jmiller320 posted:...Everything they report is just hearsay and they can't back anything they say.
Whoa...wait a moment...
UP has had no operable steam locomotive for over two years. That's not "hearsay." That's a fact...you know...those pesky little pieces of accurate and truthful information that get in the way of your idealized view of things in Cheyenne.
This subject has been discussed at length over on trainorders.com. Jack is not the only one presenting rather unflattering FACTS about the UP steam program. There are dozens of people posting over there about this. Many of them are very active in the steam locomotive community and have backed up their assertions with FACTS and, in some cases, pictures of recent damage done to 844.
The fact that some of you want to deny the facts doesn't change the fact that the UP steam department has been unable to field an operable steam locomotive for several years.
And that's a FACT, not "hearsay."
jmiller320 posted:Hot Water posted:Well, I guess it is time for me to defer to MARTYE and JMILLER320, as they both seem to have most of the "answers". MARTYE is apparently not aware that more than a few members of the previous UP Steam Crew, as well as more than one member of the current crew (including the current manager about two years ago), have been posting on Trainorders.com, over the past 3 to 4 years.
JMILLER320 has apparently visited the Cheyenne Steam Shop many times, over the past 4 years, and must have first hand experience in main line steam locomotive maintenance & repairs, in order to comment on the present condition of both 844 and 3985.
Enough with rumor and innuendo, I prefer to stick with the facts, as witnessed by myself, and fellow members of the previous UP Steam Crew.
I have never been to The Cheyenne Steam Shop. I did spend the night at a Holiday Inn Express in Cheyenne once. Like it has been said before, there are three sides to every story. Unfortunately all you do is spread rumor's and innuendo about Ed Dickens and the steam Program. I have worked with the public long enough to recognize someone with an axe to grind. Just look in the mirror if you want to know who I'm suggesting. You hung you hope that Ed would be fired after the lawsuit. Too bad a Judge ruled it was frivolous and threw it out and don't think that the other ridiculous lawsuit wont be tossed as well.
In fact, that lady judge's decision was reviewed by another higher court, and it was discovered that the lady judge's husband worked for the law firm that was representing UP. Once THAT was discovered, the UP quickly settled with Carol. A totally different federal judge has already dismissed the UP's claim to dismiss Henry Krening's case, and depositions will start next month.
I don't subscribe to Trainorders.com, but I have read some of the posting you have put there. You really sound like a disgruntled former employee that didn't get their way.
Wouldn't YOU be disgruntled if one single individual pretty much destroyed one of the worlds most famous steam locomotives and a complete steam program? Besides, I was only a Contract Fireman for 17 years, and NEVER employed by UP.
Dumb question from someone who really doesn't know much about steam: What needs to be done to put one or more of the UP steam engines back in service?
If there is already something online, a link would be great.
OGR Webmaster posted:jmiller320 posted:...Everything they report is just hearsay and they can't back anything they say.
Whoa...wait a moment...
UP has had no operable steam locomotive for over two years. That's not "hearsay." That's a fact...you know...those pesky little pieces of accurate and truthful information that get in the way of your idealized view of things in Cheyenne.
This subject has been discussed at length over on trainorders.com. Jack is not the only one presenting rather unflattering FACTS about the UP steam program. There are dozens of people posting over there about this. Many of them are very active in the steam locomotive community and have backed up their assertions with FACTS and, in some cases, pictures of recent damage done to 844.
The fact that some of you want to deny the facts doesn't change the fact that the UP steam department has been unable to field an operable steam locomotive for several years.
And that's a FACT, not "hearsay."
The only fact that has been posted is "The Union Pacific Railroad had no operable steam locomotive for over two years". Everything else is hearsay and personal opinion. I know it's your forum and if we don't like it we don't have to read it.
BobbyD posted:Wasn't Boardman, the head of Amtrak, there at the last one? Sensing a trend maybe?
Mr. Boardman was at the recently rebuilt Denver's Union Station for National Train Day promoting Amtrak. It was a good time. He was gracious enough to show us his private business car which was also equipped as a functioning track inspection car. The car was outfitted with sleeping, eating and office space in a very frugal functional way. Mr. Boardman claimed to use the car for all of his business travel, preferring to travel on Amtrak vs. other means of interstate travel.
C W Burfle posted:Dumb question from someone who really doesn't know much about steam: What needs to be done to put one or more of the UP steam engines back in service?
If there is already something online, a link would be great.
Let me put on my Psychic Hat. I predict the answer will be. "The Steam train will run when they fire the steam manager."
jmiller320 posted:OGR Webmaster posted:jmiller320 posted:...Everything they report is just hearsay and they can't back anything they say.
Whoa...wait a moment...
UP has had no operable steam locomotive for over two years. That's not "hearsay." That's a fact...you know...those pesky little pieces of accurate and truthful information that get in the way of your idealized view of things in Cheyenne.
This subject has been discussed at length over on trainorders.com. Jack is not the only one presenting rather unflattering FACTS about the UP steam program. There are dozens of people posting over there about this. Many of them are very active in the steam locomotive community and have backed up their assertions with FACTS and, in some cases, pictures of recent damage done to 844.
The fact that some of you want to deny the facts doesn't change the fact that the UP steam department has been unable to field an operable steam locomotive for several years.
And that's a FACT, not "hearsay."
The only fact that has been posted is "The Union Pacific Railroad had no operable steam locomotive for over two years". Everything else is hearsay and personal opinion. I know it's your forum and if we don't like it we don't have to read it.
I therefor assume that you missed all the color photos of the flues/tubes removed from 844, as well as the wasted firebox side sheet steel cut-out from 844's firebox, all of which were posted on Trainorders.com? Then again, you probably also missed the color photos of the drastically overheated rod bearings at Marysville, Kansas (2011), and/or the flatted driver tires, from down in Texas.
jmiller320 posted:C W Burfle posted:Dumb question from someone who really doesn't know much about steam: What needs to be done to put one or more of the UP steam engines back in service?
If there is already something online, a link would be great.Let me put on my Psychic Hat. I predict the answer will be. "The Steam train will run when they fire the steam manager."
Actually no! An outside experienced contractor could be hired to perform the FRA mandated 15 year boiler inspection on Challenger 3985, and then complete repairs to 844's firebox and tender.
Hot Water posted:rtr12 posted:I know little about steam and absolutely nothing about the UP steam program other than the numbers of some of engines they have (like 844, 3985 and 4014), and we went to see the 844 (I think it was) when it came to town many years ago ('80s I think?). I do have a question though, when was the last time a UP steamer was running (under it's own power) on the rails?
July 2013, was the last operation of UP 844, as I recall.
Thanks. That has been a while.
Being a UP shareholder I don't want them to be spending money right now that don't go to the bottom line.
I am also a UP fan and want the steam program to continue but to be spending money if employees are being laid off or losing hours then the steam program has to take a back seat even if it means being dormant for years. If the engines are destined to be displayed and never run again, so be it and right now that may be the future.
david1 posted:Being a UP shareholder I don't want them to be spending money right now that don't go to the bottom line.
I am also a UP fan and want the steam program to continue but to be spending money if employees are being laid off or losing hours then the steam program has to take a back seat even if it means being dormant for years. If the engines are destined to be displayed and never run again, so be it and right now that may be the future.
A very good suggestion. Wonder why UP has thus been laying off hundreds of employees, throughout the system, yet the employees at the Cheyenne steam shop are still not accomplishing anything?
MartyE posted:Well just as the TOS says...
There are 3 sides of the story. Yours, theirs, and the truth. While I'm sure what Rich and HW have passed along has validity after all they are in fact "in the business" the fact of this matter is the other side, Ed and the UP steam program, has no real voice in this discussion. While I too have no dog in this fight other than wanting to see the steam program prosper I suspect if Ed said the sky is blue, HW would say its teal and vice versa. Rich would probably tell us the sky "Ain't gonna happen".
You get the point.
Just remember the TOS...
When you post about a bad experience keep in mind that there are usually three sides to every quarrel: your side, the other side, and the truth, which is somewhere in the middle. When you post about such a difference of opinion, the other side usually doesn't have the opportunity to defend himself on the Forum so such things can become very one-sided and unfair very quickly. In the interest of fairness, if you actually name the other party in such a post, creating the potential, given the vast reach of the Internet, for what might be a very unfair character assassination, we are going to delete the thread. In a similar light, posts whose purpose we judge to be primarily to bash another person, vendor, manufacturer, etc., will be deleted.
The facts are the facts. Since Dickens has been in charge considerable AVOIDABLE damage has been done to the 844. Both the boiler corrosion and damage to the driving wheels happened on his watch. The 3985 has been all but forgotten about while he's gone chasing more pipe dreams with the 4018.
I'm going to place a hell of a lot more weight on the experienced comments of Jack and Rich than on a bunch of polyannic bull emanating from the incompetent running the Cheyenne Steam Shop. For someone who served in the program under the great Steve Lee, it appears that he learned next to nothing.
If you were looking for an excuse for UP management to cut their losses and pull the plug on steam you couldn't find a better poster boy.
I have the answer. I am the welding instructor at the local tech school here in Northwest, Florida. If someone will find a way for the 844 or 3985 to be delivered to our welding shop, I believe my students could complete the job. Wow! That would be a fantastic project.
Mr Union Pacific posted:I have the answer. I am the welding instructor at the local tech school here in Northwest, Florida. If someone will find a way for the 844 or 3985 to be delivered to our welding shop, I believe my students could complete the job. Wow! That would be a fantastic project.
Well, that's very nice but, there is a LOT more involved than just welding. Also, are you and your students Pressure Vessel qualified?
Mr Union Pacific posted:I have the answer. I am the welding instructor at the local tech school here in Northwest, Florida. If someone will find a way for the 844 or 3985 to be delivered to our welding shop, I believe my students could complete the job. Wow! That would be a fantastic project.
Do you have classes in the evenings for adults? I'll enroll for this project!
I'll even bring my little Millermatic 180 machine to help! 
jmiller320 posted:The only fact that has been posted is "The Union Pacific Railroad had no operable steam locomotive for over two years". Everything else is hearsay and personal opinion. I know it's your forum and if we don't like it we don't have to read it.
Sigh...there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Try to set your emotions aside and look at the facts:
As I said earlier, there is a reason these threads elicit these types of responses, and it's not due to a group of "disgruntled" former employees. It goes MUCH deeper than that.
I am PV qualified, but students...no way.
Question - Past performance aside, has the UP set any objectives for the Steam Program in 2016 that the current team's performance can objectively be measured against?
OGR Webmaster posted:jmiller320 posted:The only fact that has been posted is "The Union Pacific Railroad had no operable steam locomotive for over two years". Everything else is hearsay and personal opinion. I know it's your forum and if we don't like it we don't have to read it.
Sigh...there are none so blind as those who will not see.
Try to set your emotions aside and look at the facts:
- 100% turnover in the steam department in first 3 months - documented, not hearsay
- 844 flat wheels incident - documented, not hearsay
- 844 boiler scaled up and full of mud - documented, not hearsay
- 844 tender baffles badly wasted due to the new water treatment program - documented, not hearsay
- Critically important steam loco parts and drawings thrown out - documented, not hearsay
- There is much more, but I hope this begins to bring things into focus.
As I said earlier, there is a reason these threads elicit these types of responses, and it's not due to a group of "disgruntled" former employees. It goes MUCH deeper than that.
Good advice. Many people need to check their emotions at the door. I can understand the turn over in the shop. Maybe when it was explained that the Steam Shop was not Burger King and the employees no longer got it their way. They decided to exercise their rights and move on. How is the flat wheels incident Ed's fault? Was he driving the diesel pushing or towing the 844? Was it Ed's job to blow down the boiler or did he have someone assigned to do the task that did not do it? maybe there is a reason for the change over. Now that you have let this play out and continue, I hope that in the future you will not be so quick to shut down other threads that stir up the emotions of some of the fomites.
Lets just hope that the 844 doesn't end up like the PRR 1361.....
jmiller320 posted:How is the flat wheels incident Ed's fault? Was he driving the diesel pushing or towing the 844?
In the first place, we don't "drive" locomotives in the USA. We "run" locomotives here. In this case, he allowed an unqualified engineer to run the 844. In a moment of confusion, the guy panicked, dumped the air and did not bail off the independent brake. The result was flat wheels on the 844's drivers. E.D. then tried to blame it on the MU box controlling the diesel. He finally had to admit to what really happened, which anyone familiar with steam locomotives and MU boxes knew to be the case all along.Was it Ed's job to blow down the boiler or did he have someone assigned to do the task that did not do it?
As the guy in charge, it was Ed's job to make sure the boiler was blown down at regular intervals. He not only did not do that, he changed the water treatment (using a swimming pool water vendor!) and then established a policy of NOT blowing down the boiler at all! The result was a totally mudded up boiler, loads of scale and lots of firebox damage.
Now that you have let this play out and continue, I hope that in the future you will not be so quick to shut down other threads that stir up the emotions of some of the fomites.
This thread is not about emotion. This one is about FACTS, which you want to ignore. This is not the same kind of post as someone who had a bad experience at a hobby shop on a train deal.As someone who is deeply involved in the real thing with NKP 765, I want to see ALL steam locomotive operators succeed and do well. One rogue operator who thinks he knows better than every one else (when he demonstrably does not) can destroy the industry for all of us with the mistakes he is making. THAT is what this is all about, and is why it triggers such a strong response from so many people in the industry every time the subject comes up.
I think we've beaten this subject to death for now. I'm going to close this thread.
Until the next time...
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