Variations in Scale of O-Gauge Locomotives and Rolling Stock

@FortyFivePalms posted:

Hello folks,

Last week I decided to add some rolling stock to my small inherited collection of Lionel postwar equipment. I figured that all Lionel O-gauge was the same size, right? Boy, did I get that one wrong. (I can hear all you Lionel experts chuckling out there!) I bought a boxcar and a couple of hoppers and when they arrived they seemed to be huge compared to my postwar rollers. So I did some research (here and elsewhere) and discovered that there are many variations of scale in the O-gauge world, and each one can be a different size.

I really want to keep all of my Lionel acquisitions to be in scale with my smaller-scale postwar stuff (which I assume is technically O27).

Going forward, do I have to restrict myself to only postwar (up to 1969) equipment?

Is any of the modern era equipment compatible in scale?

Is there anything in the Lionel numbering scheme that will tell me what scale it is?

If not, has anyone complied a database or reference that classifies each part number by scale?

Does this variation in scale apply to locomotives also?

Thanks in advance!

A recent thread on this topic may be of interest.
This website is also a good resource for Post War Lionel

To maintain a reasonable similarirty:

- Buy cars that are called "traditional" sized -  Lionel still sells those. (MTH= "Rail King")  When buying be sure to know how long the car is. 

- When buying a piece of rolling stock, buy one that is a model of a car from the early 1900s- 1950 or so.  The prototypes ("real") cars were shorter- say less than 60 feet- and 60 feet translates to 15" in the model.  As the railroads moved into the mid-late 1950s and especially now, the cars were very much longer, and higher.  A car called "scale" from that earlier era still won't be overly long to look out of place.  A modern car will.

- When putting together a train of cars ("consist")- put the cars of similar length together. 

- In terms of passenger cars, buy 16" cars.   (Prototype passenger cars were 70- 80 feet- in 1/48 = 17.5" - 20".)  Typical "train set" curves were 27"- 31" radius (O27- O31).   Any cars much longer than that require much broader curves- 054- 072 or wider curves.  While a 20" passenger car might RUN OK,  otherwise it will probably still look out of place.

And- your vissitors will not realize the differences, unless you run say a 22" "scale" passenger car on O31 track.

Thanks for the responses so far.

Is it safe to say that any Lionel labeled/sold as 'O27' is the smaller scale that I prefer?

And regarding the numbering convention, if I remember correctly I read somewhere that postwar Lionel locos in O scale carry a three-digit catalog number, whereas the O27 scale equivalent will reflect a four-digit number - is that correct?

Thanks again.

Yes Ken,

Size variations are a total and absolute mess.

First, based on your post, absolutely stay away from any car that says its 1/48 scale.  They are gigantic compared to what you are used to.   MTH has many cars that clearly marked 1/48 scale.  Although they are beautiful, they are not for you (or me).

Second, sort out the size of box cars, tank cars, gondolas and flat cars that you like the best, measure their length to an 1/8th of an inch, and then stick to new/used cars that are very close to those measurements.  I have found that 10 1/4" to 11 1/8th" are what looks best for me.     Of course, most cabooses are shorter than this, but this is fine as long as they aren't the 1/48 scale.

And then get rid of all of your other cars.  If you don't, then you will be tripping over them, packing them, unpacking them, etc. for years to come. 

Finally, be really careful of how you buy new or used cars on the internet.  Most of the listings show beautiful pictures, but contain no true measurements.   If you can't get that info from the seller, or another source, then don't buy it.

Mike is correct that what you are looking for is called "traditional size" cars.  And, happily , there are tons of these around new and used from the 1980 through 2010 era. Both cars and engines.   (I am not sure, but I think the engines of this era are called "conventional" to distinguish them from the post-war stuff.   

Be sure your engine has a "can motor" and if possible, try to get them with dual can motors and flyweel actions (so that they don't abruptly stop running when you turn off the throttle, but instead roll to a stop!)

The next smaller size is often referred to as toy size,  which came in the smallest and cheapest train sets.  These are usually easy to spot, but the lines can get blurred sometimes.

Since you aren't going to run 1/48 scale cars, you will need to stay away from the big beautiful locomotives, such as Hudsons, since they will look ridiculous pulling your smaller cars. 

If you are looking for a great small diesel, take a look at the Williams-Bachman 44-ton switcher!   You can buy these brand- new for about $150 to $200.    Two motors, diesel sounds, horn, bell and a really strong puller.   The yellow Union Pacific has a great paint job. In my opinion, the greatest bargain out there.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Yes Ken,

Size variations are a total and absolute mess.

First, based on your post, absolutely stay away from any car that says its 1/48 scale.  They are gigantic compared to what you are used to.   MTH has many cars that clearly marked 1/48 scale.  Although they are beautiful, they are not for you (or me).

Second, sort out the size of box cars, tank cars, gondolas and flat cars that you like the best, measure their length to an 1/8th of an inch, and then stick to new/used cars that are very close to those measurements.  I have found that 10 1/4" to 11 1/8th" are what looks best for me.     Of course, most cabooses are shorter than this, but this is fine as long as they aren't the 1/48 scale.

And then get rid of all of your other cars.  If you don't, then you will be tripping over them, packing them, unpacking them, etc. for years to come.

Finally, be really careful of how you buy new or used cars on the internet.  Most of the listings show beautiful pictures, but contain no true measurements.   If you can't get that info from the seller, or another source, then don't buy it.

Mike is correct that what you are looking for is called "traditional size" cars.  And, happily , there are tons of these around new and used from the 1980 through 2010 era. Both cars and engines.   (I am not sure, but I think the engines of this era are called "conventional" to distinguish them from the post-war stuff.   

Be sure your engine has a "can motor" and if possible, try to get them with dual can motors and flyweel actions (so that they don't abruptly stop running when you turn off the throttle, but instead roll to a stop!)

The next smaller size is often referred to as toy size,  which came in the smallest and cheapest train sets.  These are usually easy to spot, but the lines can get blurred sometimes.

Since you aren't going to run 1/48 scale cars, you will need to stay away from the big beautiful locomotives, such as Hudsons, since they will look ridiculous pulling your smaller cars.

If you are looking for a great small diesel, take a look at the Williams-Bachman 44-ton switcher!   You can buy these brand- new for about $150 to $200.    Two motors, diesel sounds, horn, bell and a really strong puller.   The yellow Union Pacific has a great paint job. In my opinion, the greatest bargain out there.

Mannyrock

Mannyrock,

Thanks for the reply. Great info. I made a couple of impulse purchases without doing due diligence beforehand; my bad. Looks like I'll be doing some Ebay selling in the near future, which is fine, all part of the learning process. I now understand why some of the more conscientious sellers have a tape measure lined up in front of each item for sale.

I also plan to sit down and read my Doyle reference book cover-to-cover, as it appears that it may contain some useful information about scale as it applies to the postwar rolling stock & diesels (which I prefer over steam).

Hi Ken!  Manny gave you some good advice.  Here's my understanding regarding postwar Lionel diesels:

The F3s, NW2, FM TrainMaster, GP7/GP9 are all approximately scale-sized (although Lionel simplified details, windshield design, etc., to make them more durable.)

The "44-tonner" is way oversized but it might approximate a GE 80-ton center cab switcher.

The GG1 and Alco FAs are way undersized relative to their prototypes.

The E33 rectifier and New Haven EP-5 are somewhat smaller than scale, and the prototypes rode on six-wheel trucks

Before you get too hung up on scale fidelity, think about how the trains will look on your curves.  Even O72 curves are much sharper than real RR curves, and in most cases model train curves aren't "eased."  In other words, they are sections of a circle rather than a gradually-tightening spiral, so longer trains end up with a ton of overhang.

Unfortunately, narrowish equipment looks a little odd for a different reason.  Our 1.25" gauge is too wide, even for 1/48 O scale.  So when you put a narrow-bodied vehicle on those rails, the wheels come out to the edge of the boiler or car body.  That affects realistic appearance in a different way.  At the end of the day, unless you're modeling Proto-48 on 2-rail track, it's a compromise.  It comes down to what looks good to YOUR eye!

@Mike Wyatt posted:

- In terms of passenger cars, buy 16" cars.   (Prototype passenger cars were 70- 80 feet- in 1/48 = 17.5" - 20".)  Typical "train set" curves were 27"- 31" radius (O27- O31).   Any cars much longer than that require much broader curves- 054- 072 or wider curves.  While a 20" passenger car might RUN OK,  otherwise it will probably still look out of place.

With the OP asking about O27 a couple of times, I'd suggest looking at the original 2400 series passenger cars or modern equivalents from Lionel and Williams which were around 11-1/2" or the modern O27 passenger cars (like the Rail King O27 passenger cars) which are about 13".

While I agree the 15"-16" cars like the postwar 2500 series look more realistic and better in absolute terms, I prefer the looks of the smaller 11.5" and 13" cars on my smallish pike.

To stay with the O27 postwar sized items, here are some safe suggestions for freight cars.

• K-Line - avoid their O Scale classics which are 1:48 scale and too big. Learned the hard way by buying a few and then selling them.
• MTH - avoid Premier and Rail King scale. Even most non-scale Rail King will likely look bigger than your Lionel Postwar, so be careful with these, too. To be 100% safe with MTH, stick with their Rugged Rails line.
• Industrial Rail (now owned by Atlas) - all good matches to postwar size with the possible exception of the 4-bay hoppers which are large in any scale.
• Lionel - Avoid Scale, Legacy-equipped, and "Standard O."  You want items labeled Traditional and/or O27.

Ken, you almost have this figured out, but the problem is that there is no logic to the size issue. For steam engines you are for the most part correct that three digits means that it was sold for O gauge and four digits means that it was sold for O27. But, many of the O gauge steam engines are identical to their four digit counterparts and work just fine on O27. You can check on individual post war engines at Tandem Associates and they will tell you if the engine works on O27 or not.

Now for your purposes, you want to avoid the 1/4" scale models and you want the 6454 series boxcars, often called traditional size. But you should also avoid the rediculously small 3/16" scale cars. These were sold by Lionel to compete with the really cheap competition. As an example, avoid any of the post war cars in the 6014 series. Unfotunately, Lionel continued making those cars for many years. The Lionel 6-16227 was made in 1991, forty years after the post war 6014 series and it is close to identicle except the 1991 version has cheaper trucks and couplers.

• The small 3/16" scale cars, such as the 6014 series, usually measure around 1-7/8" wide and they look rediculous with O gauge trucks. (If you have any, you can put American Flyer trucks on them since they are the correct scale for S gauge)
• The traditional size cars, such as the 6454 series, usually measure around 2-1/8" wide and they look good with post war equipment.
• The 1/4" near scale cars, Such as "Standard O", usually measure around 2-3/8" wide and they look good with other scale or near scale cars.

Thanks folks, this is really good information and I am taking lots of notes.

My first order of business will be to properly identify and catalog the rolling stock I already have, as I still have some inherited cars I haven't properly identified. I know for sure that they were all part of two or three train sets that were purchased in the early 50s, mixed in with some Marx tinplate cars and track (but the Marx stuff will eventually get sold).

Welcome to the hobby - You're going t have a wonderful time!

Here are some fun photos of a K-Line Big Boy and an MTH Rail King Big Boy.  On the box for the MTH there is no indication of O gauge or 1:48, it does say it will handle 031 curves, and the K-Line has 'O-gauge' printed  on the box.  The K-Line looks better with post-war Lionel rolling stock including the 027 size passenger cars, while a modern MTH box car seems a bit off scale,m and look better with the MTH.  Yes, that is an orange catwalk on top of the Baby Ruth box car.  I have had that car, gondola, caboose, and the Lionel Adriatic that pulled it since I was 4 years old, for some reason  I thought an orange catwalk would be nice when I was 8.

There are several groups of O gauge cars of different sizes.

1. The 3/16" (S) scale cars.  Marx lithographed sheet metal cars and prewar Gilbert cars (1938 - 1942).
2. Small O scale cars,  Marx deluxe cars (later made by K-Line), Lionel 6454 boxcar and small hopper and gondola.
3. Traditional O cars, Lionel 6464 (K-Line clones), Industrial Rail, K-Line "traditional size", etc.
4. Larger O boxcars, Kusan, Auburn, Menards, Kris, Williams, MTH Rail King.
5. Full O scale cars.  Lionel 700 series (1939 - 1942) and reproductions, MTH Premier, Weaver, etc.

Hi Ken! (aka FortyFivePalms)

I understand your angst!

I too, prefer to stay with "traditional" sized trains. I never could accept having a 6464 type boxcar next to a scale sized 40' boxcar. I also had severe issues with engines towering above 6464 type boxcars.

Thus, the 6464 type boxcar is the largest car I want as my collection grows.

Mention has been made about the 6014 and other items that are near 3/16" scale, or "S" scale. For a point of reference, here is a Lionel 6464 boxcar placed along side a Marx 3/16" car:

As you can see, even the shrunken 6464 on the right dwarfs a 3/16" model. (BUT, the Marx 3/16" has overall better truck-to-body proportions!)

When it comes to Lionel steam locomotives, I have found that the 736 "Berkshire" boiler based engines look good with 6464 type boxcars. That would be such engines as the 736 2-8-4, 2046 4-6-4, etc. Also, the Baldwin boiler 4-6-4 (2055, 2065, etc) look great. Also worth mentioning is their 2037 boiler used in their 2-6-4 creation that has good proportions for the smaller cars.

As for Lionel diesels: The best fit for road power is the cast metal frame Alco FA. Here's a pic of a set I own among some 6464 boxcars and also a 2055 steam engine (those are 3/16" S scale figures in the pic, which fit nicely with "traditional" sized trains):

And another pic of the cast frame FA sitting next to a 2055 and a 2065 in the background. Again, that is a 3/16" S scale figure:

Now, I've been told, but have not personally seen, that the MTH Rail King F3's blend well with traditional sized trains. The MTH Rail King F3 is foreshortened and is not as tall as a scale version.

As for diesel switch engines, it gets a bit tougher. The Lionel NW2 (i.e. the 623 and such) is essentially scale sized... thus it towers over 6464 boxcars, and especially the 6454 series boxcars.

What I was contemplating doing was to use a Marx Alco switcher, which fits in with the traditional sized rolling stock nicely. Here's an example of the Marx switcher I reference:

Not mentioned yet is the K-Line "O/027 Classic" (NOT "O Classic") series of boxcars and reefer cars. These are 6464 in size and blend nicely with Lionel 6464 type boxcars as well as Lionel 6454 type boxcars. To boot, they have sprung die cast metal trucks.

SO... what you're wanting to do can be done... but you've got some homework to do in order to avoid oversized equipment.

Hope this helps!

Andre

Andre,

Thanks for the useful information. FYI your first two pictures did not post (just an error message, 'Image Not Found'), don't know if that's me or on your end.

Too bad about the Lionel NW2s as I've grown fond of them (I inherited two in my original collection). Never thought about the Marx stuff, I always associate it with tinplate. I don't know much about them, I guess they upped their game in later years? Now I have to run to the Internet to do some more research, lol...

One thing to consider too, some of the “traditional” rolling stock out there might be scale, but for a much earlier era. I’m thinking of the 8,000 gallon tank cars for example.

The variations in size of real trains is quite large too.

@FortyFivePalms posted:

Andre,

Thanks for the useful information. FYI your first two pictures did not post (just an error message, 'Image Not Found'), don't know if that's me or on your end.

Too bad about the Lionel NW2s as I've grown fond of them (I inherited two in my original collection). Never thought about the Marx stuff, I always associate it with tinplate. I don't know much about them, I guess they upped their game in later years? Now I have to run to the Internet to do some more research, lol...

Thanks for the heads up on the failed uploads. I've attempted to reload them. They display on my PC, hopefully they'll show on your end of the internet.

As for Lionel's NW2:

Well, we each have to find our own threshold as to what we're okay with. It could be that you'd be fine with the NW2 shuffling 6464 type cars?

As for the Marx Alco:

I have zero personal experience with one. I do know that the Marx "scissors" couplers will not be compatible with Lionel's knuckle couplers. SO, should I ever take an active step to utilize a Marx Alco switcher with knuckle equipped cars... I'll have to convert the Marx to knuckles.

Lastly:

Here's a picture I've used a LOT here at OGR. (Said pic was originally posted by "wbg_pete" in one of the OGR forums years ago.) To me, this is a really great example of how good "traditional" size trains can look set among "sincere" scenery. (Note: The FAs are Lionel's "cast frame" version.)

AND, here's a picture from OGR forumite "Christopher2035" that shows "sincere" scenery can even make the Lionel "stamped frame" FA's look great!

I wish you the best in your quest!

Andre

@laming posted:

As for the Marx Alco:

I have zero personal experience with one. I do know that the Marx "scissors" couplers will not be compatible with Lionel's knuckle couplers. SO, should I ever take an active step to utilize a Marx Alco switcher with knuckle equipped cars... I'll have to convert the Marx to knuckles.

Andre

Andre,

Regarding the Marx Alco switchers, is the coupler conversion fairly straightforward? Are conversion supplies readily available? Or is there considerable fabrication required?

Thanks.

What a great discussion!  Tons of free information here that is really hard to find out on your own.

Mannyrock

Here are a few pics of traditional size boxcars by different manufacturers. First picture is for size comparison, and as you can see, all are the same size.

Next, Rugged Rails by MTH (not to be confused with Railking)

Industrial Rail, now owned by Atlas.

K-Line Classic

Lionel. Hope this helps.

@FortyFivePalms

Ken:

There happens to have been a thread here at OGR discussing this very thing:

https://ogrforum.com/...98-alco-s-3-switcher

Also, there's a couple of YouTube videos that show ways to accomplish same:

Hope this helps!

Andre

Is there a particular Lionel product line that you can count on to be Traditional size?

When you see a product box that says the car is for O Gauge or O27, does that always mean that it is Traditional size?

Thanks,  Mannyrock