Latest J3a Hudson five chuffs.

Gary, I believe you mean 'Legacy' Hudsons if you are indeed referring to the recent scale Hudsons from Lionel and a few custom run models.

 I mentioned that months ago Gary. ( Possibly on another forum?) You insisted your loco had a perfect 4 chuffs.

Watching videos, it appears to effect the entire run of the new J3a's.  I noticed it after it was pointed out on youtube by a few reviewers. These engines sound like they are going faster than they really are at speed with the extra chuff.

One of several reasons I dumped my preorder on one.

The previous ESE hudsons do not have this issue.

Maybe you should shoot Dave Olson an email, and see what he says. I'm sure you still have it after the mogul debacle.

@RickO posted:

 I mentioned that months ago Gary. ( Possibly on another forum?) You insisted your loco had a perfect 4 chuffs.

Watching videos, it appears to effect the entire run of the new J3a's.  I noticed it after it was pointed out on youtube by a few reviewers. These engines sound like they are going faster than they really are at speed with the extra chuff.

One of several reasons I dumped my preorder on one.

The previous ESE hudsons do not have this issue.

Maybe you should shoot Dave Olson an email, and see what he says. I'm sure you still have it after the mogul debacle.

Don’t remember ever mentioning the chuffs on another form?  Send me a link.  I’ll have to edit that thread.  LOL.  Dave hasn’t responded to my emails since before Covid but I’ll try.  

@superwarp1 posted:

  Dave hasn’t responded to my emails since before Covid but I’ll try.  

Boy thats a long time Gary. Oddly enough when I go on Lionels support site for parts I get a security warning. I guess thats one way to deter folks LOL!

On top of the five chuffs the 12, 3, 6, and 9 chuff points begin to move as well.

You own one of these so I'm not telling you anything. It appears they may start out at 4 and as speed increases the chuff points slide and an extra chuff sneaks in.

Hotwater used to say Mike R. was also a big loss because he was a "train guy". If no one at Lionel is a "train person", this is how we get errors like this. This must be some time of gear ratio/electronics calculation error or something to that effect.  

These days, I get the impression the current Lionel staff is leaning more towards marketing "electronic toys" than accurate "models". They still haven't figured out what color graphite is supposed to be.

Good luck! Hope you find resolution. I'm guessing Lionel won't fix it unless theres an influx of complaints.

I'm hope two owners of their new hudsons will sell me their extra chuffs so I can add them to my TMCC j3a

What's the gear ratio of your Hudson?  Obviously the electronics *think* the driving wheels have made one full revolution, when in fact they have only traveled 288 degrees.  Maybe Lionel borrowed sound programming from a loco that's geared 25% taller.  You could double-check the tach sensor (slotted plastic ring).  But if it were slipping I would think that would cause erratic running and fewer than 4 chuffs.

I have not seen this issue, but it is normal for the chuff to not be exactly at 4-6-9-12 o clock. It does shift after a full rotation giving it a illusion of an extra chuff....Lionel did away of the cherry switch and cam when they introduced RCMC electronics.... Similar to how MTH, the chuff is produced by counting the rotation of flywheels encoder/“tach” .   (20:1 ratio are the recent hudson’s)

Well here’s a video I did back in December and I didn’t notice it then but I notice it now.  Count the chuffs. This is a programming issue of the RCMC board.  A fix only lIonel can do.  So we’ll see what they say.

@Bruk posted:

20:1 ratio are the recent hudson’s

Well that would explain it.  I think the original J3 (28072) was geared at 16:1 but I think that used a 4-lobe cam and cherry switch.  Some others like the 11334 Crescent, 11335 Blue Comet, etc. were geared at 18:1.  So if they re-used the same software code and sound programming, the chuff would eventually get out of sync and once every few revolutions you would get 5 chuffs.  On an MTH loco You could solve this yourself by swapping the sound / personality file via software update.  On a Lionel I believe you have to actually replace a chip on the board with a different one, assuming that it's still available.

The TMCC J3s came with a two lobe cam.

The gear ratio is supposed to be taken into account when the RCMC is programmed. In the case of the Legacy J3s a mistake was made.

Counting flywheel pulses will result in the sound coming at different points of wheel rotation but its normaly a slow process and usually dependent on where the driver was when the engine starts moving. 

The only accurate way to get the correct number of chuffs at the same point in driver rotation is to use switches or sensors on a driver. 

Pete

Honestly, the locomotive sounds fine to me and looks gorgeous.  I understand for the real scale aficionados this may be annoying but for me I would leave it alone and let it run as is. You can't even see the drivers that well when you are watching the trains run because you are looking down on them.  With all respect, when this type of thing starts to really bother folks it is time to take a break from the trains and go outside.

PS - Gary's layout looks really good.

@Ray Lombardo posted:

Honestly, the locomotive sounds fine to me and looks gorgeous.  I understand for the real scale aficionados this may be annoying but for me I would leave it alone and let it run as is. You can't even see the drivers that well when you are watching the trains run because you are looking down on them.  With all respect, when this type of thing starts to really bother folks it is time to take a break from the trains and go outside.

PS - Gary's layout looks really good.

Ray, I for one always respect your replies and you always bring insight and thoughtfulness to a thread,....however, ...when those things start to command prices that approach high end household appliance prices, a smidgeon of accuracy I’d think is to be expected.....for most folks, yes, it’ll be fine forever, but there is a segment of some of us that lean towards the 3RS crowd, and I don’t blame them for a second for being miffed about it....they’ve shelled out the big bucks for accuracy, they should get something out of the deal.....not “oh well, live with it” 

Pat

@superwarp1 posted:

Well here’s a video I did back in December and I didn’t notice it then but I notice it now.  Count the chuffs. This is a programming issue of the RCMC board.  A fix only lIonel can do.  So we’ll see what they say.

 

I’m going to hold on to what I said before, thats not 5 chuffs. Like I said, that is very typical for the LEGACY RCMC engines; that the position of the rod and the chuff beat to move out of sync slightly then return. No cam = Your going to notice it. If you look at the Legacy Conversion I did, I installed a 16:1 board into the 16:1 Drivetrain. In my final install video the chuff is not synced with the position of the exact chuff beat and rod position.

I also noticed during a slow momentum start up to speed (like you did in your video) its even more noticeable because of the change in motor speed and the speed control trying to maintain the speed steps. Where in mine it maintains the same speed step. Also the larger drive wheels tend to show the “drift” more. If you refuse to believe this. I highly doubt Lionel will correct the “issue”. Every LEGACY steamer with RCMC even with the ones I convert. All have the same “problem” 

  The Ese Hudsons from 2015 don't have this extra chuff issue and  I believe they use the same electronics.

There have been no complaints about the VL Niagara either.

Has MTH ever displayed this 5 chuff anomoly?

Lionel dropped the cherry switch about 10 years ago. I don't think the VL Hudson has one either. Surely 5 chuffs  would have been recognized by now.

Dear Mr Harmonyards,superwarp1, I get your dispointment with the new legacy engines . Especially when they are so high price models. I just got done watching a gentleman from London complaining about his n scale engine being lemons from several different manufacturer of n scale models . I find your point about your should get a great model for your money ,but it seems to be the norm as quality control is not there in China. As from what I've read from many other persons on this forum is we are not getting a great product from the new Lionel management.  I would suggest you vote with your money and stop paiding the high prices and find good old post war trains that still run some 60-75 years since they were made , sure they have not all the bells and whistles but they run and this is supposed to be a fun hobby.  Just my  two cents on your disappointment with your new engines . 

@Lou1985........^^^^^^^^^^^^^^........here we go!....🙄

Pat

@RickO posted:

 

  The Ese Hudsons from 2015 don't have this extra chuff issue and  I believe they use the same electronics.

There have been no complaints about the VL Niagara either.

Has MTH ever displayed this 5 chuff anomoly?

Lionel dropped the cherry switch about 10 years ago. I don't think the VL Hudson has one either. Surely 5 chuffs  would have been recognized by now.

First generation Legacy with the R4LCs and DCDS had a chuff switch. Its basically Odyssey hardware with 9 bit code. When they went with RCMCs they no longer supplied a hardware chuff in. I guess it saved them some hardware doing it this way but now we are dependent on Lionel to fix this. 

One solution would be to supply the service centers with the hardware and software so they could make the correction but I don't see that happening.

The VL 700E has an RCMC, maybe one of the first to get it, so yes, no chuff switch.

Pete

@Ted S posted:

Well that would explain it.  I think the original J3 (28072) was geared at 16:1 but I think that used a 4-lobe cam and cherry switch.  Some others like the 11334 Crescent, 11335 Blue Comet, etc. were geared at 18:1. 

Lionel Pacific’s are geared to 20:1 (I have a long listed chart of Lionel Gear ratios) 

@harmonyards posted:

Ray, I for one always respect your replies and you always bring insight and thoughtfulness to a thread,....however, ...when those things start to command prices that approach high end household appliance prices, a smidgeon of accuracy I’d think is to be expected.....for most folks, yes, it’ll be fine forever, but there is a segment of some of us that lean towards the 3RS crowd, and I don’t blame them for a second for being miffed about it....they’ve shelled out the big bucks for accuracy, they should get something out of the deal.....not “oh well, live with it” 

Pat

Your point is fair certainly.  The only thing I would add into the mix is the hassle and potential damage associated with a repair.  We have seen more than one post about shipping damage (with the obligatory photos of broken parts floating around in the box), botched or multiple trips for repairs, etc.  I would hate to see that happen here.  But ultimately the owner has to make that assessment and act acdordingly.  And to your point, given the pricing of these locos and the intended audience, Gary would not be crazy to go that route. Take care and stay safe in these crazy times.

@RickO posted:

 

  The Ese Hudsons from 2015 don't have this extra chuff issue and  I believe they use the same electronics.

There have been no complaints about the VL Niagara either.

Has MTH ever displayed this 5 chuff anomoly?

Lionel dropped the cherry switch about 10 years ago. I don't think the VL Hudson has one either. Surely 5 chuffs  would have been recognized by now.

That’s a good point, I have the ESE Hudson and will put them side by side to compare.  Video to come.

@RickO posted:

I'm hope two owners of their new hudsons will sell me their extra chuffs so I can add them to my TMCC j3a

Not a problem Rick, I'll sell you the extra chuffs right now.

 Gary, I was going to suggest running your 2 Hudson’s as an un connected doublehead. Rick suggested checking against the ESE as far as chuffs. I’m more curious if they run pretty close to the same speed.

@RickO posted:

 

  The Ese Hudsons from 2015 don't have this extra chuff issue and  I believe they use the same electronics.

Has MTH ever displayed this 5 chuff anomoly?

Lionel dropped the cherry switch about 10 years ago. I don't think the VL Hudson has one either. Surely 5 chuffs  would have been recognized by now.

1; The ESE Hudson has a 16:1 Ratio, so it wont be "programed the same as the J1a's)

2; MTH you can adjust the chuff rate with the DCS, but even then they still "drift" out of sound beat and rod position (no CAM)

3; Yes VL Hudson was the 1st loco to have RCMC.

Interesting that this topic has reemerged. The 5 chuff/rev characteristic of the new J3a's was commented upon and joked about on this form last January - February.

All samples of the new J3a that I have witnessed, including my own, have this "feature". I do not see the problem being rectified by Lionel, which also still owes some purchasers a second boiler front. My sample (a Pat's special run) looks handsome and runs as promised, but once one is aware of the 5 chuff/rev, it is annoying because it is not correct and was so utterly avoidable. Given the purchase price of these trains, it should have been set right to start with. And, come the inevitable day when the original owner wishes to sell the piece, this 'feature' becomes a 'bug'.

The way to rectify this and other lapses in QC is to not pre-order next time around. In some quarters, there is an wholly unjustified loyalty to Lionel, which is no longer the Lionel of even ten or twenty years ago. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time. In my other rather pricey hobby (high end audio in which QC is far superior to Lionel's), manufacturers go to great lengths to rectify shortcomings, once uncovered.  Combined with insufficient personnel and a weak repair infrastructure, Lionel's China model of manufacture and sale of items requiring a high level of attention to detail is woefully broken. 

So, no BTO!

Bob

I just ran my Legacy ESE hudson. There may be a slight drift out of position that returns but for the most part its 12 3, 6, and 9. Never is it anywhere near the obvious 5 chuffs in Garys video. For me, rod position isn't as big of a deal as the extra chuff that makes the loco sound as though its going faster than it is.

I don't disagree with you Bruk. I just think Lionel could have done a much better job on the chuff timing of this new J3a hudson.  They have done better in the past.

@RickO posted:

I just ran my Legacy ESE hudson. There may be a slight drift out of position that returns but for the most part its 12 3, 6, and 9. Never is it anywhere near the obvious 5 chuffs in Garys video. For me, rod position isn't as big of a deal as the extra chuff that makes the loco sound as though its going faster than it is.

I don't disagree with you Bruk. I just think Lionel could have done a much better job on the chuff timing of this new J3a hudson.  They have done better in the past.

I think they just have a drop down menu and select the gear ratio for each loco they program; there isn’t much science behind it. 

Try setting your momentum to 8 on the controller and watch it gain speed. Ive noticed the chuff will shift the most then. Like he did in his video. 

@Bruk posted:

Try setting your momentum to 8 on the controller and watch it gain speed. Ive noticed the chuff will shift the most then. Like he did in his video. 

The chuff points slide a bit, but I don't see 5 chuffs in a revolution. Maybe it will go 2, 5, 8 and11, but never 5 chuffs.

The slide in chuff points seems to be more associated with where the wheels/rods are position at loco startup. the chuffs begin at a certain point of rotation, and the chuff is quartered from there.

@buf58 posted:

I would suggest you vote with your money and stop paiding the high prices and find good old post war trains that still run some 60-75 years since they were made , sure they have not all the bells and whistles but they run and this is supposed to be a fun hobby.  Just my  two cents on your disappointment with your new engines . 

This has been stated before but modern trains aren't any less mechanically reliable than postwar trains. In fact they are more mechanically reliable. It's the electronics that can have issues. Postwar trains are all mechanical, so yes they will work with tweaking by the average person. Take the electronics out of a modern train, put in a bridge rectifier and an E-Unit, and the modern train will run circles around a postwar train.

There are those of us who enjoy the hobby in different ways. Some, myself included, like command control trains that have smoke/sound and are scale sized. We pay the premium for them. For someone like me a postwar 2055 Hudson is not a substitute for a Premier ATSF 3460 class Hudson. The OP just wants his Hudson to have the correct amount of chuffs. Hopefully they'll get a decent solution to the problem. 

@RickO posted:

The chuff points slide a bit, but I don't see 5 chuffs in a revolution. Maybe it will go 2, 5, 8 and11, but never 5 chuffs.

The slide in chuff points seems to be more associated with where the wheels/rods are position at loco startup. the chuffs begin at a certain point of rotation, and the chuff is quartered from there.

I've noticed that with my PS2 and PS3 steam as well. They have 4 chuffs but the chuff points do tend to slide a bit, depending on where they started.

I really don’t care it the chuffs happen at the correct position,  I just care that’s there’s four per rev.   Like I said I missed all the threads last winter so here’s the video.  If I sound bitter, or a little direct with anything I say or write, just remember I used to own a mogul and everything I’ve purchased since has had one defect or another.  No more until this stuff stops.

Nice demonstration Gary! Guilty as charged.

Ironically,the ESE Hudson is one of the last Lionel locomotives from the "Mike Reagan Era" of Lionel.

Again, I hope Lionel offers a resolution for you and others that purchased this engine.

I haven't pre-ordered in a few years, and I'm not planning it any time soon.  My last pre-order was the F40PH and Cabbage unit, we all know how well those turned out.

I watched the YouTube video at the slowest speed (painful!), and I'm not seeing any "drift" or random variation.  (I have heard of this technique being used on articulateds to simulate the front and rear engines going in-and-out of synch.  Of course this can't actually happen on the scale versions because they share a common drive shaft.) 

The chuff occurs in different rod positions because this J3 was programmed with the wrong gear ratio.  It's not a true 5 chuffs per, it's more like 4.4 chuffs per revolution.  So it's not immediately obvious, but the chuff occurs with the rod in a slightly different position each time.  It's also possible that Lionel's sound file varies the duration of the chuff with speed to simulate changing cut-off, which further drives this debate.  Long chuffs at high speed would just run into each other.  Besides in real life it's bad operating practice!

While it's certainly true that a cam and reed switch would give exactly 4 chuffs, unless special care was taken to install the cam and the wheels on opposite sides "in quarter," there's no guarantee that the chuffs would occur at a time matching the piston stroke.  And I've heard these where the reed switch produced objectionable clicking and slight mechanical drag.  I like the software solution, and it shouldn't be that difficult to get it right.

Judging by the better video, Lionel has used a board that was programmed for a 16:1 ratio. Since the J1A has a 20:1 ratio you are getting the extra chuff. 

So either you deal with it, or replace/order a board from the recent run of the USRA Pacific’s which have a 20:1 ratio.

Lionel will not fix this anytime soon. 

Golden ears Ted? If you can hear a reed switch click over the chuff sound you must have incredible hearing. But wait you can have a silent hardware chuff switch and it works at the speed of light.

Pete

I meant a mechanical "cherry switch" which predated the magnetic reed switches.  Sorry for the imprecise language!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I haven't pre-ordered in a few years, and I'm not planning it any time soon.  My last pre-order was the F40PH and Cabbage unit, we all know how well those turned out.

I had enough after the H10. Between the two oddball reds, no cab windows, hideous silver smokebox, missing screws , and thin overspray finish on the steamchest. I'l have to go back and check the chuffs....now I'm just piling on. My apologies.

 At this point. I'll take a little TMCC lurch on a quality model with a nice fit and finish.

Yep, the H10 fiasco slipped my mind, mine is still cobbled together with the board in backwards and crooked, the only way the wiring harness would fit and the shell could be put on properly.

@Bruk posted:

Judging by the better video, Lionel has used a board that was programmed for a 16:1 ratio. Since the J1A has a 20:1 ratio you are getting the extra chuff. 

So either you deal with it, or replace/order a board from the recent run of the USRA Pacific’s which have a 20:1 ratio.

Lionel will not fix this anytime soon. 

Isn’t it more than just gear ratio?  Doesn’t driver diameter size have to be part of the Equation?

For speed control, i.e., accurate scale mph or compatible operation at the same "speed step," driver size plays a role.  But for synchronized chuffing just knowing the gear ratio is enough.  Because a quarter-turn is a quarter-turn, regardless of driving wheel size.