Vision vs Legacy

The Vision line consists of the more expensive Legacy engines, as well as some Legacy-equipped rolling stock.

It was originally supposed to be unique, one of a kind, offerings with never before offered realistic features, i.e. steaming whistle , blowdown, dynamo, cylinder blowoff,swinging bell, spinning fans etc.

Initially this was the case.

IMO,I think Lionel made the mistake of "watering it down" by offering some of the "vision" features in Legacy locomotives. Lionel also created  some confusion by offering legacy versions( with less features) of previous vision locos like the genset.

 As of late,Lionel has further added insult to injury by refraining from offering the added vision features like whistle steam in the legacy stuff like they had done prior.

Another bad move  confusing/discouraging potential buyers.

One could say, Lionel "is like a box of chocolates, you never really know what your gonna get".......until its delivered.

Here was the original idea.  http://www.lionel.com/VisionLine/#/nav/about

Ricko has it right but I would like to see Lionel get rid of the vision line and incorporate those features thru out the entire scale line. 

Having the vision line writes off too many gals and guys who cannot afford the vision line But who may be able to afford the exact engines in legacy. When you sell more engines the price will be lower and when you sell less like the vision line  they  will always be higher. 

I do agree the Vision Line and Legacy Line have converged in features.  The stage was was set by the Legacy E6 Atlantic steamer, adding a Vision smoke controller into this loco.  (Understand engineering does not control the product feature set.)  From that point onward, the engineering had to incorporate into the Legacy loco software most of the vision smoke features.

However, I was glad that we went down this product direction for 2 reasons.  1) the advance smoke system features should be enjoyed by all;  2) the engineering tasks became simpler as software all worked similarly.

To directly comment to the whistle smoke in Legacy locos.  Smoke systems are high failure components, therefore 2 smoke units double the chances of service related actions. From a business standpoint, it only makes sense to put multiple smoke systems into more expensive locos.  The margins are usually higher in that case and can absorb the service related expenses.

Another option to mitigate service expense is to allow folks to tinker, after all it is a tinkerer's hobby, right?  If we permit folks to open the loco replace the packing material (a consumable) or oil a fan motor, then most smoke system related failures could be fixed without a service tag.

Food for thought.

Think of it this way...

When you get past the marketing speak, Vision Line is the follow-on to what was once called JLC-series offerings.  When Calabrese arrived on the scene, a new set of terminology was put in place, and the former names were "retired".

But whatever you call it... Vision Line (the new name) or JLC (the former name) is intended to be top-of-the-line offerings that push the envelop of realistic features (and as a matter of consequence, higher price-points as well).

Legacy, on the other hand, is Lionel's newest "control system" implemented throughout their entire line of command-controlled offerings.

Hope that helps... although I would agree that Lionel has definitely muddied up the waters over the past year or two regarding where in the product line various features are actually implemented.  It's gotten to the point, that even Lionel personnel stateside (Jon's comments above notwithstanding) prefer to NOT comment on product-specific features until products literally show up here in the States.  Unfortunately, that's very much expected in this era of strained overseas manufacturing relationships.

David

That's all fine and good, Jon.  However, locomotives WITHOUT the enhanced whistle steam or steam-chest emissions features should have had LOWER MSRP's relative to price-points of locomotives WITH the enhanced steam features.  And that hasn't been the case.  On the contrary, locomotives WITH the enhanced steam features can pretty much be had for hundreds of dollars LESS than the newest offerings with lesser amounts of features.    And I'm talking about products that are brand new, MINT in sealed shipping boxes.

David

David,

I see your point, however mull this over:

1) Costs are rising in China, and are reflected in the latest offerings.  As an example: we are producing the ZWL in Malaysia.

2) We did some price and feature test marketing, reducing our margins a LOT.  Lower costs, more features, and guess what?  To my knowledge we did not sell more product on average with that recipe.

Jon,

I appreciate that you read and comment on the forum.  I have several Legacy tier engines and three Vision Line engines (3000, CC2, and Challenger).  The Vision Line brought me into the hobby, and they are the engines I have the most fun with and the ones I make sure are running when family and friends come over to check out the progress on my layout.  They really are crowd-pleasers.

I understand that you will set prices in order to maximize your profits.  I also understand that production costs are on the rise in China.  But the lack of perceived continuity in the pricing structure between Legacy and Vision Line engines is very frustrating for this consumer.  Bringing the smoking whistle to the Legacy tier was great to me.  I bought the UP 9000 and the ATSF Northern because I perceived a value in each.  The cost relative to the features squared in my head I bought them.  I had intended, but did not buy the ATSF Berkshire because the features did not justify the cost.  I also passed on the GS-2 last month because I applied the same rationale.  Apparently I am in the minority. 

In the future, will Vision Line features be present in Legacy tier engines?  Whatever Lionel does, I hope for improved communications.  You have all the tools (blog, facebook, and a solid web page), yet I feel a great deal of uncertainty regarding the product lines and the pricing structure.  I have taken a wait and see approach before I purchase another $1,300.00 (or more) toy.  I am hoping York and the Vol I catalog will answer my questions.  

Thank you

Jon,

Thanks as always for participating on the forum here.  Always good to here your insights.

FWIW, here's where I am in this big game as a consumer.   The timeframe from late 2010 through 2012 has given toy train enthusiasts a tremendous amount of inventory in the marketplace that is now selling at record low prices.  (Just a "gut feel" on this point, as I do not have raw statistics.  But all that matters to me is every time I look around lately, I'm seeing TREMENDOUS values offered across the board.  So this seems consistent with your point #2 in that there's still stuff in inventory that needs to move to make room for even newer offerings.)

I would only caution Lionel (and all importers for that matter) that many here have MUCH more product in our own inventory than we'll ever "need" -- or perhaps should even "have".  Understandably, there's a noticeable trend of folks on the forum downsizing their collections these days... and by collections I'm speaking as an "operator".  My point being that I very much consider myself a value shopper.  That doesn't mean I'm shopping for bargains all the time.  Rather, I need to see "value" for the money spent.  So if I've already snagged close to a dozen or so NEW Legacy locomotives (including articulated steamers) with enhanced steam effects at $699 to $799 price-points, one thing is VERY certain.  I am NOT about to spend $1200+ on new locomotives without these features -- no matter how much an anomaly the 2010-2012 price-points are.  I understand that Chinese labor costs are on the rise... but as long as I can still purchase existing inventory from authorized dealers at better "price/performance" levels than we're currently seeing with stuff released in early 2013, I'm not interested in paying premium prices for lesser equipped offerings.  And if that means passing on the new stuff until market forces bring those prices closer in line with prior offerings, I can wait it out just fine.  And if I miss a new offering or two (or more) because some enthusiasts insist on paying premium prices to be first-on-the-block with a new offering, that's perfectly OK with me... 'cause my current roster is more than sufficient.

Admittedly, I'm just one data point in a see of MANY toy train enthusiasts.  And I don't think this position is that far off base from those in your "marketing sweet spot".  But if my membership card in the target market has expired, then I'm OK with that too. 

David

David, thanks.  I always learn when I participate on this forum.  I also agree with your purchasing strategy.   The best approach for Lionel is to listen to our customers and fulfill their needs. 

I definitely got hooked on the whistle steam and purchased the following in the last 2 1/2 years:

ATSF 3000

Greyhound Vision Challenger

UP 9000 (blk)

WP EM1 Giant

Polar K4

ATST 3951

I also purchased a SF Berkshire (got suckered on that when whistle steam wasn't present, nor notified till it shipped) but kept it anyway (still in the closet for Bday or other special occasion).

With the UP H-7 looking like no Whistle Steam from the posted user manual, I'll have to think about rather to get that one even though it is on my 'most wanted list'.  Price point will weight heavily.

The sequence control that was added with the UBER board products is a nice change as well.

On the Legacy release able to MU Diesel units (or steam) without them fighting like they did under TMCC is also a big feature to myself.  I rarely consider a TMCC diesel due to the difficulty in MU them.

I look back on the MPC era and while still have good memories the play value just isn't the same.

I'm guessing it takes a fair amount of changing molds, specifying  changes to the previous model to add Whistle Steam, negotiating price with contractor, and the list goes on and on.  May take a whole year of planning (only guessing).  Some posters seem to think it is no bigger and just a couple more hours of time from the planning stand point.  In production it may not take much more to build, but getting to that point could be fairly expensive for each model Lionel does this on but makes a nicer product.

Jim