VL BIG BOY Smoke wick replaced WOW!!

Honestly, I wouldn't care if it was a charge item - to send my VLBBs to Lionel and have them tune the blow-down and other smoke for optimum performance. The smoke features would work well and no warranty issue. 

Peter

As some folks know, I purchased one of the VL Big Boys, and pulled it out of the box yesterday for the first time.  It did have weak blowdown, but after I added a good amount of fluid, I could not be happier.  I shot a video for folks to see..   I will post it next week when I have time to trim and size reduce the file.

Perhaps what is happening is the fluid level is low on the locos where blowdown is light?   I added just over 1/2 of a dropper full of fluid Lionel Premium fluid, it was a healthy amount!   I did wait for it to soak in for a few minutes, and waited after power up for a bit for the smoke system to warm up, about 3-4 minutes. 

The blowdown is not meant to be up to temp as fast as the Whistle or Stack.  This is done intentionally for power management as the smoke units draw a good amount of power, and a blowdown is not likely the first action a Loco is going to experience. (Stack & Whistle are higher priority)

The fact that the smoke units are not visible, and not in our comfort zone like filling a stack (you get a feel for the stack because we fill them on many steamers), we are simply being too conservative on the fluid level? 

Standby for more updates...and the video.

That sounds great Jon.  I have noticed that if I wait a few minutes, the blowdown and whistle smoke is stronger, makes sense.

I look forward to your video.

Not enough fluid wasn't my problem as I kept adding it, one mark at a time, waited, tried and still weak.  I kept doing it until the fan gurgled (So too much.) so I waited a couple days for it to evaporate away.  I might be sending it in anyway as the rear stack is weak compared to the front stack on my unit, and it always has smoke coming out instead of defined puffs like the front stack.

Jon, I thank you for actively sharing insight on how all the smoke units are supposed to work.

I can honestly tell you I am having far superior results using the 8" rope wick verses the pads installed at the factory.

I add 20 drops and get 3 laps around my layout for main smoke stacks that equates to 114 feet and then the smoke drops off dramatically. if I turn smoke off and refill with another 10-20 drops smoke is back to full. I have been leaving main smoke stack set at the low setting.

the whistle smoke as stated by you needs time to get warmed up fully, I allow it to run one time around layout and then the smoke whistle is as strong as my legacy ATSF # 3751 sante fe steam engine. I haven't added any fluid to the smoke chamber since Friday morning and that was 3/4" using a mega steam eye dropper.

the blow down feature takes the full 114' before it will give a stream of smoke visible at speed  of 25. I haven't added any smoke fluid to it since Thursday.

in regards to main smoke stack output with the original pad removed it appears no real difference from low to medium to high smoke setting on remote it just billows the smoke from track level upwards of 3' to ceiling.

question, does the original pad/wick material act as a heat sensor buffer so the low,medium,high settings actually show?

also the airway in all smoke units should that entire area be void of any pad/wick material to aid in better air flow out the smoke units exhaust hole?

StPaul, the wick material affects the temperature, for your description you may be running too hot if you can't see the L,M,H differences.  The airway should be clear.

I have had no luck posting the video, but have it.  Maybe someone can post it for me, I can send it.  Email me if interested.

Jon's video showing stock smoke unit, out of the box. Lots of smoke fluid, warmed up for 5 minutes prior to operation.

Mine has never looked like that, even when I let it warm up for 10 min after putting lots of fluid in.

I have seen a stream like in Jon's video after adding much fluid but only for 3-4 seconds and then gone.. never have I had that kind of smoke for anything close to that long a period...

I am very happy with the stack and whistle and I LOVE the loco as a whole.. it delivers in every other category! 

+ 1

Boy, there'd be no need to tinker with it if we got that kind of smoke!  I improved it by fixing the sensor, but nothing like that!

And that is my interest in this thread...  We have a sample loco that works well, and also my personal loco is fine, which has never been opened up.  The video is of my loco and I feel it works as expected.  I will run my loco some more and see if it degrades, and post if I have more insight.  At least folks know the what the loco is capable of producing.

Thanks Rudy for posting the video for me!

All I can say Jon is I'd be VERY happy with that level of smoke production!

Jon, really appreciate your participation and I hope it continues...

a question .. the video stops after 20 seconds of steady strong smoke .. what is the setting L M or H ?? also can we see how your locos whistle and stack smoke work so we have something to compare to there too??

Thanks again for your contributions...

Neither one of our VL BB's even came close to that.... NOT even half of that..

That is great smoke volume. I wonder what you did different, that obviously none of us did?

+1

I am assuming Lionel smoke fluid was used in the video, yes?

I expect that much smoke from the blowdown as in the video ( I am in the market for another VL BB ), I wait a final solution. thx for all who are participating in this thread in a positive manner. All BB owners, and Lionel, will benefit from the outcome of this thread...

Re: Jon's video. Wow!! That is a great amount of blow down smoke Jon. I have done what you did and mine still is anemic. As I previously said, If I want to see mine work I shine I light on blow down port, get real close, then I can see some smoke. I would return my Big Boy to Lionel if I could get a level of smoke like Jon's. I don't know if Lionel would do anything since mine does work.

Bob  

Not sure if my scenario would offer any additional insight to the problem but here it is.

LionMaster BB with Whistle steam effect

Whistle steam gets fed from main smoke unit.

When new, our BB's whistle smoke feature would only work properly if the smoke fluid was added, and allowed to sit overnight before running. If you tried to add the fluid and run immediately, the whistle smoke was almost nonexistent.

It would also "run dry" far sooner than the main stack even though they were both fed from the same batting.

Months later, after having to send it into Lionel due to a total smoke unit failure, it now produces whistle smoke immediately upon filling and keeps producing it just as long as the main stack does.

WOW now that's really neat.  I too have two VLBB and wish they did that.  The smoke in the stack and whistle are great but the blow down is another story.  Thanks for posting vid.

Jon....  

I did some fiddling with blow down smoke feature, I tried a different hose but no better so re-installed the original one.

I adjusted the heat sensor and a bit better.

so used the spare hose and used it to blow really hard from fluid add hole and had fluid come out somewhat.

after that the left side of blowdown smoked as in your video but the right side was still anemic so used hose again but this time blew from right side blowdown exit hole and now both blowdown outlets are as good or better than your video!!

as a side note I discovered the blowdown is affected on my BB by main smoke stack setting if set to low the blowdown is anemic and gets better as I increase to medium and high setting.

I have also learned the further away the small heat sensor in main smoke stacks are the more smoke it will produce and the closer to heating element the less smoke is produced.

I wish I knew the secret of getting that blowdown assembly out from frame to see if a piece of? is lodged inside that pipe where the hose attaches to it as there has to be a reason mine goes from great to poor and a strong flow of air into that blowdown pipe clears it up.

also seems as any smoke fluid that gets to traction tires causes them to swell. I wonder why?

I had a friend adjust my system and now, It smokes like a Dragster, really great out the Whistle, and Yes, I have a great Blow Down, now, all is great, however, as I have said earlier in this thread, Lionel made a different rear blow down system and the one on the 2-10-10-2 ATSF 3000 and the Pennsy Mallet  0-8-8-0 VisionLine both have much better blow down smoke....But, The VL Big Boy is a super fine model and its well worth the BTO Price....My favorite feature is the Wheel Slippage as it takes off....I am glad that Lionel chimed in on this thread as it proves they really listen.  Happy Railroading.

reading the tips about clearing the lines for blowdown smoke I used a can of compressed air and blew into the fill tube. I felt the air coming out both sides (track power off) I put a half tube of fluid in, waited a couple minutes and blew air thru tubes again. Powered up the BB waited a few minutes then tried the blowdown. After three tries the smoke was pouring out!! Totally awesome to see. Not as much as the video but I can see the blowdown while BB is running. I am very happy with the results. Thanks for the tip to blow out the hoses! 

691SMKP008

So, since Jon has not answered my repeated query on whether we can send locos back to Lionel for blow-down tweaking - before I go and ruin my VLBBs, are you saying to physically blow from my mouth air into the blow-down fill hole under the sand dome?  If not, can you explain exactly how to blow air through the blow-down tubes.  I'd like to try this.   Thanks!  

PJB..... using mouth to clear tubes yes in a way as follows.

find a hose or plastic straw insert or place hose if large enough over the smoke fill hole for blow down smoke and blow hard!

now you might think the blowdown holes below cab are angled down no not quite using same hose/straw blow both left and right blowdown openings below cab unit.

see if any fluid or? comes out then allow engine to sit powered up for 2-3 minutes leave the cover off where you add fluid to blowdown smoke unit now press the blowdown key when smoke is pouring out hole strongly release and replace that cover now push blowdown key again and hold it down see if your smoke has improved.

this and some tweaking of smoke unit fixed mine so far.

if someone here that knows how to post a picture showing with arrows where these holes are please post them as I'm not that good at those things.

Marty what is the part number for?

8 inch rope wicking.

Hi PJB, I don't speak for the service department, sorry.  I am just trying to sort out what is going on - just like the other folks participating on this thread.  Additionally, we still have a lot of mixed results.

I ran my loco on "M" for the video, "L" was too light, and "H" seemed to be too much on my stack.  All smoke units follow the L, M, and H settings in unison. 

I was able to use the blowdown for quite some time, then I decided to take the video and share it to see what folks thought.  Smoke production is very subjective.  I already had a few minutes of blowdown operation when the video was taken; maybe it just heated up?  I will run it from cold again and see if it changes the behavior.

I did add quite a bit of fluid, and it was Lionel's premium fluid.  I don't use anything else in my trains, just my way.  I did have to blow into the fill hole after filling as the lines were plugged with fluid (no smoke) after loading it up.  I guess I did not think to mention that - I end up doing that routine on all of the smoke unit filling I perform on my locos!

I used a ZWL, full voltage.  I will keep evaluating and posting if I find anything to contribute.  This is not a show stopper, so let's take our time and keep evaluating the situation.  I will be in the main office mid month, I will try some other locos when there.

Would you be able to elaborate what your friend did to your loco?  BTW: the smoke system on the blow down and whistle smoke is essentially the same on the Vision BB as the 2 Vision locos you called out.

Marty, have you noticed that all smoke wicks are not same width?

and thank you for clarifying the part number as to what it was.

SantaFeFan,

I have an issue with the center screw on blowdown pcb as it never would tighten down can I use a 1/16" longer screw in that area?

I have another thread I started regarding use of auto gasket sealant you might be interested in it?

While I see the advantages of blowing into the fill hole, I suspect that blowing down the fill hole of the blow down in a VL BB, with a lot of smoke fluid in the bowl/hoses may cause some of this fluid to go into the smoke fan and into the motor and perhaps causing motor failures later on?? Gentle blowing is recommended to break down any fluid/air bubbles that may be trapped in the system.

I have spent over 6 hrs trying to understand the blow down situation on my VL BB.

I have found that if I kept the BD (Blow Down) smoke unit with minimum smoke fluid, it would smoke great. Same with the whistle unit but for a lesser effect, meaning the amount of fluid is not critical. The main smoke stack love smoke fluid, so no worries there.

My theory is that the BD smoke has a long way to travel down the two tubes from the main chamber, there is a lot of heat loss. So if there is a lot of fluid in the bowl, there is a lot of thermal mass to heat and the result is anemic smoke. But when the smoke fluid in the bowl is less, the heating element has an easier task and hence can produce more smoke.

Here are some pix!

 I turned off the main stacks.

Here is the Blow Down at stand still!

BD smoke out of the fill hole..

BD Smoke while moving among Diesels

BTW, I have a 6 min video that I had problems posting. It shows the BD smoke. If some one can post it for me, it will be great.

That's the problem with my VL BB. I have to run the BD smoke unit in a very narrow window of "pleasant" smoke operation with having just the right amount of fluid vs running it too dry or too wet and no smoke...

Bigboy4014 is correct about the Vision Big Boy blowdown. I opened my locomotive yesterday for the first time and added 20 drops to the blowdown hole ONE at a time blowing down the tube every five drops. I also blew gently into each blowdown emission hole. SLOWLY. After 20 drops I allowed the wick to absorb the fluid for at least 15 minutes and ran the loco. I had so little blowdown smoke I could barely see it from six inches away. Bummer. I waited another 15 minutes and same result. I went to e-mail my good friend Tall Mike.

This morning the result was fabulous. SO much blowdown smoke emission, I had to stop and we have a very big room. What did Mike tell me?

1) A joke about the operator's skills. All true. Sigh . .

2) Hit AUX1 + 6 and then WAIT. AUX1 + 6 turns on the unit which MUST heat up.

3) AFTER the unit warms up you will get copious smoke if you LAY on button #6.

My advice: DO NOT add any more smoke fluid. The problem is likely as Bigboy4014 has said. If there is insufficient blowdown smoke, it could be that the initial amount being very low causes operators to add more fluid. THAT could be the problem. I added NO fluid after the first twenty drops to get what you see in the videos below. 

WAIT 10-15 minutes before laying on the button. After fifteen minutes, blowdown emission was so great, I had to stop. I believe too much fluid will greatly reduce output

Apologies for the poor video quality of the shakey IPad!