What Can Be Done to Promote York?

They need to hire a sales and marketing trainer / consultant.

TCA Eastern and many of the complaining dealers / manufacturers seem to be missing the basics of retail business. There are great examples in the retail world, WalMart, Starbucks, McDonalds, etc. Try to apply some learning from them. It's little things and great customer service that make the difference, not complaining about members within earshot.

George

I like it just the way it is.

eddie g posted:

I like it just the way it is.

The way it is, is dying, slowly but surely.

I think it would be beneficial for someone to write up a publishable article about the hobbies of toy train collecting and model railroading that includes a show announcement in the very beginning. A bit on the TCA and the nation museum probably would be in order. Then send it to every newspaper (including local weeklies and such), radio station, and television station within the target area for public attendance.
Some will put the show on their "things to do" calendar.
Some might tweak the article and run it.

When I was handling the advertising for a local show, I had some success doing this.

I understand that one of the fellows who have been promoting one of our local shows was interviewed by our local cable TV news station, and the spot was run multiple times before the show. How do you suppose the station learned of the show? 
Attendance was certainly good.

While not my idea, one idea with regards to advertising is that the EDTCA could do a run of T-shirts promoting the York Meet and sell them at just a little over cost, and maybe even give them to new members who sign up at the meet.  If they come up with an eye-catching design that is printed on vibrant bright red or blue T-shirts (NOT white, black or gray - bright color attracts much more attention), people who wear them will be walking billboards (and essentially free advertising), and since people like to wear such shirts to train shows (and I would also wear it in public), it would get the word out to the train fanatics who have yet to learn about York by word-of-mouth.  It would have to have a short message that can be delivered quickly, like "World's Biggest Train Meet - York, PA!  Eastern Division TCA"

Andy

Peter, Thanks for posting and great seeing you this weekend. I've been going to York for just over 20 years and enjoyed my trips. I do attend with a wish list and amazingly over the years I have about a 95% rate in finding what I want.  From an attendees, my perspective my list includes purchases as well meeting people (as I introduced myself to you ) and having a good time.  York is part of my annual vacation budget.

1. Here are a few of my suggestions:Revert back to two days. Conduct the show on Friday and Saturday. Friday have the dealer halls open from 9am to 7pm and Saturday 9am to 5pm. The member halls should stay open Friday 9am to 5pm and Saturday 9am to 3pm, giving the member sellers time to check out dealer halls.

2.  Allow non TCA members access to the FULL show. Our members are there to SELL!!! and the current policy steers non members away from there tables. We have TCA members attend other meets to sell as I have done. My concern when I am selling is to get as many people as possible to pass my table. One consideration would be to raise the non member admission to $25 for full access.

Just my thoughts.

Steve

L.I.TRAIN posted:

...........

2.  Allow non TCA members access to the FULL show. Our members are there to SELL!!! and the current policy steers non members away from there tables. We have TCA members attend other meets to sell as I have done. My concern when I am selling is to get as many people as possible to pass my table. One consideration would be to raise the non member admission to $25 for full access.

............

That is the tax issue from the other side of the table.  Members do not all wish to obtain PA tax numbers to sell to the general public.  The member to member model avoids that problem.

I will never have a table at a meet again if I need to obtain a PA tax number to sell probably less than a few hundred bucks worth of items once or twice a year. (and sometimes much less than that - I'm not a big seller).  I suspect I am not alone (may not be the majority, but I'm sure I'm not the only one).  It is not worth the paperwork hassle for me to do so.  Even if you stop selling, you could need to file paperwork to formally claim you did not sell for eternity.  A Forum member who sold in the Orange hall for several meets years ago has previously described how he still needs to file with the state of PA after each meet even though he hasn't sold for quite a few years now.

{edit: to be fair, if a survey would not be a huge undertaking (it wouldn't be free, but I don't know how hard it would be), the ED could ask all member table holders from the previous meet their though on the matter.  If 95% say they would still have a table even if they had to obtain a tax # to sell, maybe it is a good way to go.  I can't see how they would gauge any additional table holders that may decide to get a table if the public was admitted rather than just members.  But once that act takes place, it sounds like it's irreversible, so it's not something that can be "experimented" with to see how it goes.)}

-Dave

PS. Peter, Sorry I didn't have a new suggestion for your thread at this point, but wanted to point that out, even though it's been covered many times in the past.

I will never have a table at a meet again if I need to obtain a PA tax number to sell probably less than a few hundred bucks worth of items once or twice a year. (and sometimes much less than that - I'm not a big seller).  I suspect I am not alone (may not be the majority, but I'm sure I'm not the only one).  It is not worth the paperwork hassle for me to do so.  Even if you stop selling, you could need to file paperwork to formally claim you did not sell for eternity.  A Forum member who sold in the Orange hall for several meets years ago has previously described how he still needs to file with the state of PA after each meet even though he hasn't sold for quite a few years now.

I imagine that that Orange Hall fellow decided to keep his tax number in case he wants to do York again.
Here in NYS, it is very easy to surrender your tax number.
I've been thinking about doing so and giving up train shows altogether.

I'm ignorant regarding the history of the York location so maybe it's sacrosanct.  But Delaware is less than 75 miles away and I believe they have no sales tax.  If the state of Pennsylvania wants to be a PITA, then there's a nearby option.

I think we are all whistling past the graveyard. The hobby's demographics will dictate its fate. Here in Chicago our monthly show used to be dominated by three rail dealers. No longer. There are only two vendors who show Lionel , Atlas, and MTH. No one has Ross, Gargraves or Atlas track. The majority of the vendors offer HO, old but new MTH and Lionel rolling stock and accessories, and toys, tools, and tables of old American Flyer. The best selling items are older locomotives by MTH and Lionel as well as Woodlands Senics buildings. Only one dealer offers new (recent) Lionel and MTH. Attracting new folks into the hobby is challenging. Kids today are dedicated to their phones and video games. Few would care to learn the skills necessary to construct a layout. The declining attendance at York simply mirrors the interest in 3 rail trains nationally. 

Great topic Peter and probably impossible to answer.

1. TCA doesn't seem to have any significant reason to promote York. It is an Eastern District meet. I suspect a whole lot of us aren't in the ED although we need to be in TCA to attend.

2. TCA and ED need to promote a "buy it at York" mentality. Give away something. Do something. I don't know what. Get certain dealers to buy into it with specials instead of just visit my booth. Get us to physically buy at York rather than otherwise.

3. Why the noon start on Thursday? You killed the bandit shows (yes, the internet and buyer demographics helped). But the extra day makes it more expensive for vendors.

4. Stop selling on Thursday and provide us with something else. Scenery seminars, the DCS meeting, wiring Ross switches, using the Atlas signal system, Legacy issues, etc. The ones that are done now, are done at "odd" hours (although I like the timing of them).

5. IMO, narrow aisles and electric carts make several Halls very difficult to navigate. I like to go through the Halls with older trains fairly quickly. Very difficult to do that. Maybe you don't want to change, but you surely never ask.

6. Lastly, make us all younger.

Gerry

Thanks for starting the thread in a thoughtful manner.

I'm not sure how the tax issue can be communicated more clearly, but it IS an issue, and opening the entire meet to the public is a non-starter.  (Covered very well by Dave45861's post above).

Since we can now buy trains anywhere and anytime, York should concentrate on what makes it unique, which is that it's a gathering of people.  Also, we need to realize that many members have transitioned from acquisition mode to building and operating.  So, I'd like to see more focus on meetings, seminars, and demonstrations.  Publicize them well, and hold them in convenient and visible locations during meet hours.  Now that the brown hall is no longer used as vendor space, perhaps this would be a good venue. 

And most of all, I'd like to see the establishment of a York meet "street team" to walk through the halls and perform the following tasks:  1) wake up the sleeping vendors, 2) provide basic customer-service training, and 3) hand out "your items are ridiculously overpriced" tickets to certain members.

 "1964, the last year of the baby boom, there were nearly 72.5 million baby boomers. The population, (of the boomers), peaked in 1999, with 78.8 million baby boomers, including people who immigrated to the United States and were born between 1946 and 1964".   

The bulk of this age group quickly approaches retirement, myself, (69).  You begin to consider day to day expense going forward.  Demographic groups, before and after this group, are smaller, and with much different interest. 

Cost (for this group) continue to increase, medical care a huge part of one's life from here out. 

A sobering experience was helping remove another Fort Pitt Highrailers train collection to a local auction house, Pittsburgh area, after his death.  

Trains/model trains are/were nice.  Those, who make a living selling this stuff, would eventually have to consider their market group and how it is changing. 

I walked the halls a few years ago, enjoyed the vacation, nostalgia, and chatting with friends, can't say I put much money in anyone's pocket, which should be another concern of the Eastern TCA, not just the attendance numbers. 

Helping display the Fort Pitt Highrailer's layout, was probably the peak of my York Train Show experiences. 

  IMO  Michael C. Thompson.   

Dave thanks for the sales tax update, 

One other thing to help improve York, Walking the aisles on the member halls there were lots of tables throughout the day covered with blankets, We the attendees pay to get in and would like to see their offerings. These guys should be addressed by the hall captains.

You know what, This forum is about 10% or less of the people that go to York.The majority of the collectors are not on the forum. It's mainly a collectors meet, and the collectors know about the York meet.

L.I.TRAIN posted:

Dave thanks for the sales tax update, 

One other thing to help improve York, Walking the aisles on the member halls there were lots of tables throughout the day covered with blankets, We the attendees pay to get in and would like to see their offerings. These guys should be addressed by the hall captains.

The covered tables we will agree on. 

But the days of there being competition for table spaces are obviously over, so as long as sellers don't end up regularly screwing people over, their table spots are probably safe if they either don't arrive soon enough to be there at meet open to uncover, cover early to get a jump on the dinner rush on Thursday or Friday, or pack up out of frustration and leave early.

When you all figure it out, maybe you can help Toys R Us, Sears, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Best Buy and every other business down sizing or shutting down due to modern day technology and online shopping. 

It's not going to last forever, and every year theres fewer and fewer of those same people that have been going year after year. We went twice, but wouldnt spend the money and take time off of work to go again. Been there done that. There's other things to check off the bucket list.

If you live back there great! Theres is nothing that they can do to market or promote the show that will get more and more people to take time off work to travel to York for a train show. Those days are long gone!

As a small vendor and a somewhat newer attendee (my 5th as a York vendor) I find that the lack of attendance on Saturday makes no sense for me financially to be there. Here's my few cents:

1. The TCA has had a "members only" event for so long that the general public has a general disregard for the fact that the dealer halls are actually available on Friday and Saturday. An event of this size, with the quality and diversity of vendors that are present, should be packed on Saturday.

2. The event MUST attract a younger audience. To do that I believe that you need more than just dealer tables in every hall. There should be at least one large operating layout inside the Orange Hall. There was one in the Orange Hall hallway this week and there is room for another. Those clubs who bring in their layouts need to be incentivized with a payment for consideration of their expenses.

3. Having just gone to the Amherst Railroad Club's show in January, the dynamic and energy compared with York is entirely different in my opinion. World's Greatest Hobby shows draw thousands, including families. The TCA York show is supposed to be legendary, but I believe that it has drawn less each of the past five trips that I have made. The TCA board needs to study other models that work and apply what they can while maintaining the member swap status.

4. The event only needs to be two days. I would suggest Friday and Saturday. As a small business vendor, my daily costs include overnight accommodations ($65.00), food ($40.00), van rental ($65.00) and sundry expenses ($25.00). I know that others spend more and have more than a staff of one. On Saturday I sold $16.00 worth of goods. Although I did meet several new potential customers, virtually no inventory left my table. That business model is not sustainable.

5. Do not spend the money on a consultant. Call the Amherst Model Railroad Club and arrange a weekend trip by a few board members to go to Springfield and pick their brains on how their show works. Concentrate on acquiring the next generation of enthusiasts and members as they will be the ones to maintain the value of past collections. 

6. Pay for advertising in OGR, Classic Toy Trains and The O Scale Resource magazines starting NOW for October. Print deadlines for mid-summer are most likely upon us or past.

7. Offer door prizes to non-TCA member attendees for Saturday and advertise the vendors who donate to the cause. I would gladly donate a door prize.

8. And one last nit that bothers me to no end: do not turn off the lights when there are still people in the hall, especially when it is 15 minutes before "closing" time. I work long and hard to prepare, set up and work any trade show. I do not appreciate someone turning of the lights on part of my time to sell and to me is sends the wrong message to attendees.

Pictures!

 A read a lot of comparisons made to the Springfield Big E show and how that has grown. I've attended that show for the last 25 years. Fall York for the last 8.  York seemed to decline a little each year as far as vendors. The Big E is very diverse. Covers many scales as well as real trains. I do see a few more younger people. The majority though. Is still an older crowd.

 One reason the Big E I believe has grown. Is it's location. A long for some. But a doable drive for most in the northeast. The other is the time of year it takes place. The holidays have passed. It's the off week for pro football. You have 2 weekend days to choose from. Nobody in the northeast is doing yard work or any activities outside. As long as the weather is decent as far as no snow in sight. People are just itching to get out of the house and do something. If your hobby is trains. This is the place to be.  As many have mentioned on this Forum. Most work heavily on the layout in the winter months. The Springfield show is just the ticket to pick up everything you need to finish up or start on a new project.

 I use York as a vacation. My wife likes the outlets and the Amish country. I realize for many. Taking a week off to attend a train show isn't an option. Maybe a Sat. , Sun. Format would be better for attendance.

It will never be Sunday, I hope.

eddie g posted:

It will never be Sunday.

Never allow cell phones. 

Never be open to the public. 

Never allow photos. 

Never say never. 

Get that chick at the Big E from Deluxe Materials to walk the halls.

Scrappy was happy!

I have to agree with Rick on this one

Train Collectors Association. Key word is Collectors. The "younger" generations don't collect like we old farts used to collect...Need every item in every color. Factory mistake? GREAT!. Don't mind a bit of rust because I'll find a better one later. Look at all the full shelves in my train room! 

And this goes for ALL collectibles, not just trains. How do many "collect" today? They buy a small number of what they love (pre-war trains, vintage cameras, cap guns, etc)...EXCEPT, each one has to be in mint condition, for a display in the living room. This info is from 75 year-old Harry Rinker, expert on the collectibles market who has his own radio call-in show, and writer of antique magazine articles.

But you say, "Oh, but we just want to get more people interested in playing with trains". Good luck with that one.

I restarted, ran and grew the Somerset 4-H Trainmasters from six original members to a club that has close to thirty 10 to 16 year old members. Don’t lose sight of the fact that you are working to plant the seed of a lifetime of interest. That lifetime of interest for any hobby may not be continuous. There may be schooling, family raising, and personal preferences and obligations that sidetrack any hobby for a period of time. But if you don’t offer the initional introduction, the likelyhood of creating awareness fades. Old Farts have a lifetime of experience with trains. It would be a shame if they take it to the grave without introducing another generation to the who, what, why, where and when of a facsinating hobby.

I would like to chime in being a young parent and train guy. I'm 40 with young kids and I dropped my TCA membership after 16 years. Myself and 2 other guys, same age used to go to York. When we brought our kids we felt that we made people nervous, unwelcome and a bother to some sellers. So we left! The rules are terrible for todays society. Also we cant go on a Thursday and Friday due to work, school, sports etc..I had 4 lacrosse games this weekend. It should be Sunday for the young dads. Plus York, is just boring, sorry! Tables of overpriced postwar trains and big dealers who are just grumpy. Also, to many scooters!! We go to the Big E and that is great, tons of layouts, demonstrations and my kids come home with a ton of free stuff. Now, I live in NY so I'm close to come on Saturday and Sunday.

A big factor is, that other than my train friends (5), people my age do not collect anything at all. My wife and her friends collect nothing, belong to nothing and are just into work and kids sports. That's the way it is now, like it or not.

Maybe the solution is for York to become just another local TCA meet. It could be they are a victim of their own success. All the big vendors could stay home and  operate their stores that weekend.

Everyone in the local EDTCA and local public could attend just like a local meet. The only reason we are having this discussion is that the York meet became bigger than I suspect they ever intended. 

Personally I still appreciate the effort put forth by the EDTCA but maybe they’ll start to feel all the complaining may not be worth the effort to have it that big. 

Another point, what other TCA chapters put on or try to put on a meet this big, make arrangements with the state government, and put up with this twice a year?

Marty, i read this 3 times and still don't understand what you are saying.

I cleared it up. I hope. Thanks Eddie. 

Superwarp, i don't agree with you that it is dying. maybe you need to go back to York. All that has been eliminated  is the brown & gold halls.

marty track posted:

Pictures!

Yes, post pictures everywhere on the internet and advertise with pictures in the hobby magazines, especially CTT and OGR.  Although its not as great as it used to be, it's still the best meet for 3-rail O gauge and 2-rail S gauge in the country but the word has to get out to those new to the hobby.  Not only was there no ad but there wasn't even an announcement in the "Events" column of the May 2018 issue of CTT which came out in late March.  Subscribers and other readers of that magazine and OGR are certainly the target audience for York.  Perhaps someone could write an article about York with photos to run in either CTT or OGR. 

Bill 

I believe that most or all the people that read OGR & CTT know about York.

eddie g posted:

I believe that most or all the people that read OGR & CTT know about York.

I believe Eddie is probably right about that...especially for subscribers and regular readers. The York Meet has been covered in my column several times in the past 10 years, and it is often mentioned in feature articles.

Joe Hohmann posted:

Train Collectors Association. Key word is Collectors. The "younger" generations don't collect like we old farts used to collect...Need every item in every color. Factory mistake? GREAT!. Don't mind a bit of rust because I'll find a better one later. Look at all the full shelves in my train room!

You Are absolutely correct on that point. It's really kind of a shame, but younger generations, at least to this point, do not show much of an interest in collecting things. That may change at some point, but there sure are no guarantees.

Fortunately, increasing attention these days is given to operating the trains. Trains that are running on nicely constructed layouts are the best lures that we have in this hobby. Few, if any, hobbies offer such a great opportunity to display such a diverse range of skills and talents.

Thank you so far for all the responses.....keep them coming. One of my Modular Group Colleagues, Bob Buehler, is a newly chosen ED director-at-large (to fill a newly vacant term).

I will share this thread with him.

Peter

Lol. You might think this is nuts. But, how about getting the schools involved. A field trip?

It can be part of a History tour including other areas of PA. Bring, the parents.

SS

eddie g posted:

Superwarp, i don't agree with you that it is dying. maybe you need to go back to York. All that has been eliminated  is the brown & gold halls.

Plus the Green Hall.

eddie g posted:

I believe that most or all the people that read OGR & CTT know about York.

I agree.  I've only been involved in this hobby for six months.  In that time, I've subscribed to OGR forum & magazine (and CTT), I've bought a handful of books about O and Standard Gauge, I joined the local Lionel club, and I've bought trains from a local OGR member.  Everyone of those sources mentioned York.  I had never heard of York before last December.  It's impossible to be involved in this hobby for a week without hearing about York.