What exactly is the Williams WBB catalog representing

For the most part whatever is in their catalog is available for sale. WBB pretty much makes the same thing every year so most of it is always in stock. Sometimes things get discontinued for a while I guess due to poor sales or over stock or there are new offering which haven't hit the pipeline yet but they always seem to get things to the market pretty quickly.

 

Jerry

Thanks for the response Jerry.

 

I am not sure that makes sense, though.  The Amtrak Dash-9 is in the current catalog, but Pat's Trains has it for sale at a blowout price of $99 (msrp=299).  I find it hard to believe that they would make that every year.  It seems like that model has been available for dirt cheap at least for five years now.

 

But I don't have any firsthand knowledge of their manufacturing frequency. 

 

 

If you want to know what Williams has for sale, try the on-line catalog. It is updated at least once a month and has the current offerings by WBB.

The Williams catalog is more up to date then Lionel or MTH and as far as I know doesn't contain what I call "Wish products" which means I wish they actually made this item.

 

As for the msrp that WBB is asking, I don't see how they can ask such a high price and then a retailer under sell them by more then $100.00, just don't make sense to me. Sounds kind of fishy to me.

 

Lee Fritz

Look at it this way...they are giving the dealers a lot of room on pricing...that's all.  Not a conspiracy...just good business.  Either way, they run great and are a steal at the blow out prices.  Enjoy.  BigRail

It's been discussed in depth here before. Bachmann looks like it is reworking the entire Williams line. When they bought Williams I am sure there was a good inventory on hand....they needed to move that and any orders in place with the China manufacture that was in progress. It will take a while to redevelop the line as Bachamnn sees it....so in the meantime some items that Williams may have had excess inventory...may get blown out at low prices.....as stated....just biz...not black helicopters....

ok, but these responses are not answering my original question.

 

Are the items in the catalog new or just a listing of stuff that's been sitting in hobby shops for years?

 

The responses thus far make me think that they don't manufacture much at all.  They cranked out a bunch of stuff years ago and now they are waiting for their dealers to sell it little by little.  Except the GP30's.

 

bigrail, do you have firsthand knowledge that williams has given dealers the stuff at below their asking prices, or is that your speculation?

 

It has been stated ad nauseum on ogr forums that these products can be bought cheaply.  But I'd like some more insight.

 

I think I need to make a few phone calls to dealers to get an answer to my question.

 

Martin

It may be Bachmann's intention eventually to reduce (or even eliminate altogether) the Williams line of products.  I think that Bachmann will develop a few new items in the short term to keep Williams operators happy, but I don't think that we will ever again see the variety of products put out by Jerry Williams before Bachmann took over.  For example, look at some of the pre-Bachmann Williams catalogs -- for example, 2007.  I think that Bachmann will reserve the lion's share of its resources for other scales; and the Williams section of the catalog will get smaller and smaller.  I think that the best days for buying Williams are history.  Just my humble opinion...

 

Every marketing man at every company in the world wishes ALL folks thought that way!!!!! If it cost less than a more famous brand it can't be good!!!

 

Example.....This past week I went to see my daughter. She had a few things around the house that needed fixing....her husband does not know how to drive a nail...so when I visit...I get things caught up. One project I needed to cut some odd shape patch panels in plywood. They didn't have any cutting tools.....so I went to Home Depot, it's close, and looked for a jig saw. The famous brand name was all they had. It had lots of cool stuff...LED light, no tool blade change and a price of $100. I have a good jig saw 3 hours away at home....don't need a $100 saw. Went to Harbor Freight. They had one for $20.....a set of no name blades $4. Used it at the daughters house....really a nice tool.....much nicer than the $20 price tag. How can it be decent but cost less??? Less gadgets, no advertising, just a simple tool. 

 

Why can't WbB make a decent product, a simpler product, but a great product in my opinion??? This is where we get into pricing via the 'what the market will bear' method.

If you want the hobby to be a hobby for the Vette, Viper and Porsche set...fine get the max possible. If you want to sell as much as possible....make a good product at a decent price.

Wholesale prices for new WBB production have gone up quite a bit.  They are now what retail prices used to be.  Recent blowout prices (complete diesels cost less than upgrade kits) will not be seen again.  At the same time, certain products have been cut back dramatically or eliminated (such as dummy A and B units).

 

I think the catalog represents mainly present factory supply, with a trickle of new items yet to be delivered, as we saw in the past with the B&M F3, the Peter Witt, the GP30, and the Baldwin 10-wheeler.  I do not expect to see the superliners, the metroliners, the RDC diesels, and the like ever again.  I also think that most of the Golden Memories offerings will disappear, especially the look-alike reproductions of Lionel's PW F3.

 

Overall, I believe that Bachmann expects Williams to be a niche rather than a main line of products.  JMHO.

I agree that the catalog represents what they have available, and occasionally some new units.

 

My theory has been that Bachmann was cleaning-house of all the older units, to make way for new locos like the GP-30 with excellent sound and detail.   And I think that a combination of the foreign supplier delays with other profit opportunities has slowed the introduction of new locos with sound.

 

End result - we see a lot of units blown-out, with very little new.   The new stuff is great.  

 

Meanwhile, Bachmann continues making money on their other lines.  Their new O offerings are competing internally for capital (to kick-off new production) with alternative profit opportunities in other scales.  

 

Just speculation really, based on very limited data.

On line catalog reflects what they have in production or what is in inventory.  Their dealer network and customers do not work the way the others do.  They used to make simple, no frills yet well made trains.  Their "upgrades" were basic (e.g. TruBlast 2) and minor things like modular connectors for the basic (and robust) electronic e-unit).  There are two versions of the power trucks (two axle/three axle) and they weren't terribly concerned about the details or accuracy of paint schemes.  

 

People that bought these trains like to PLAY with toy trains or they are more advanced hobbyist that use the williams chassis/shell as a basis for a kit bash.  Since there was little variation in the guts or shells they had been able to keep their price points very low.  Note: the catalog lists a manufacturer SUGGESTED retail price.  The margins were much more generous than the other guys so deep discounts were common at the retail level.

 

The new Bachman upgraded engines may throw most of what I typed above into the trash bin.  The engines will be more detailed (probably more fragile), be more complicated, and will probably result in significantly higher prices.  This is not Williams core audience and we'll have to see how this plays out over time.  I am inclined to think that core Williams buyers will balk at this while folks that want the additional detail/features will chose to stick with Atlas, Lionel, MTH, Weaver.  If WBB can get the price point low enough to attract those guys but not so high as to alienate their core they may have a winning strategy.  If they don't the market place will shrink by one less provider or toy trains.

Higher wholesale prices for new production of traditional Williams items (not just the GP30 with new sound, etc.) have already occurred.  Dealers are not happy with this; and many of them are no longer stocking Williams.  I think that Bachmann will be content with raising prices and having a smaller share of the market; but, as Chuck says, if they abandon their core Williams buyers, they may end up with no share of the o gauge market.  It's kind of the opposite of the failed strategy of K-line, which priced higher quality items too low.  But Bachmann doesn't need (and sometimes I think doesn't want) to carry the Williams line at all.

 

I think Bachmann is the largest of all the model train makers (though most of their volume is in other scales)

 

Well their parent company is. Williams by Bachmann is just one brand of many by their parent company Kader Industries. Kader manufactures and sells many brands and many scales world wide, they are the largest train manufacture in the world both in volume and revenue. At one time Kader was manufacturing trains for both Lionel and Atlas.

Bachmann/Kader can make money with or without the Williams line. I have my doubts about the new "strategy" of higher-detailed, higher-priced items, but I think Bachmann sees the rest of the market moving toward scale-sized and detailed trains, just as K-Line did. What they may be ignoring is the fact that Williams filled an important niche in O gauge- reasonably-priced, well-made, durable trains.

"Is anything in the 2013 WBB Catalog recently manufactured (other than the GP30)?  Or is it just a catalog of old stock?"

 

What do you mean?  New tooling or the items were made last week using the original tooling?

 

WBB has been making making minor/incremental upgrades to the original models over the course of producing their trains.  They've made changes to the e units, the sound boards, the wiring harness, paint, etc.  Minor changes that make the trains easier/faster to produce.  This is why/how they have been able to keep their prices down.  As to the specific times a particular train was made we have no way of knowing that and what difference does it make?

I think the newly manufactured stock is, in many cases, identical in appearance to remaining stock.  For example, the new F3 stock versus the old F3 stock.  The only differences seem to be higher cost for dealers and different packaging.  In some cases, they are replacing stock dumped in the blowout with newly shipped or newly manufactured stock of the same models and roadnames.  You can see the price hikes represented at Trainworld and other dealers.  These dealers can't sell the new shipments at blowout prices, since they paid more for them.  With Williams, it has always been hard to tell how old a particular "new" item really is.  Even pre-WBB catalogs were hard to figure out, when it came to date of manufacture.  I think a person who takes on the task of writing a sequel to the Greenberg Williams book will be doing a great service, but will end up banging his head against the wall.  Few people other than Jerry Williams can reliably date production runs, and he's not talking.

The catalog represents what is available in the dealer network at present.

"What they may be ignoring is the fact that Williams filled an important niche in O gauge- reasonably-priced, well-made, durable trains."

 

Exactly! That is why a lot of us still buy them. If you want all the fancy bells and whistles buy the big name product. Stop whining that Williams doesn't have all that stuff.

Rob

 

I didn't bring up anything about price until you did. I thought that was the direction you were going.

 

As far as what is what in the catalog......Most hobby manufactures will NOT go into what is new, old, to be discontinued or what is coming until a formal trade show be it iHobby, York or NYC Toyfair. It serves no positive purpose to inform the competition as to what your plans are all year long. I've worked in the hobby field for years.....always went to RCHTA back in the day....always been this way.....not much change. 

Williams by Bachmann is manufactured at its parent company's gigantic manufacturing facility in Hong Kong. I would think that they would have a pretty good scheduling process.

Bachmann doesn't always get things out "on time" either.

 

Rusty

Factory currently making the trains was the same company that used to make the trains when it was Jerry Williams company. The only difference is who "owns" the factory.  JW never "owned" the manufacturing plant, he just contracted with them to build the trains.