What I don't like about some of the new train sets!

I agree, it would be great if there was a conventional switch on the locomotive so that it can be run with a transformer, I'm not a fan of separate remotes for each engine.

Paul

I wouldn't be the right person to ask, but did I see that the newest versions of the Lionel remote controlled sets can be run both ways?

Personally, I run strictly conventional: mostly postwar Lionel.  So yes, I dislike the trend.  I can see how it's good for the kid's sets, but I could see it getting complicated when you have multiple engines and multiple controllers.  Just leave me my old ZW and i'll be happy

I think that this is where MTH has Lionel beat.  You can buy a "Ready to Run" set for $299-$319 or so.  It is PS3, comes with a single train remote, or can be used in a full DCS environment.

No switches to switch - put it on a conventional layout and it runs conventional.  And even in conventional, you can use the cruise control, electocouplers, etc.

Not putting down Lionel, but the MTH sets seem to have the bases covered better for a variety of scenarios.

Or... Williams - still gets the job done for conventional, at an affordable price.

IMHO,

Ed

ps. Now if we could get MTH to put Fastrack in their sets....

I have been to at least 2 hobby shops that as SOP will swap out Fastrack for their MTH sets...

I've said multiple times that Lionel really missed the boat with LC engines by NOT putting a conventional/remote switch like their LC+ products. 

That said, I'll take the LC remote over MTH's DCS Remote Commander any day. While MTH's product works, you literally have to stand right at the receiver and response is hit or miss. Overall a clunky product. The Lionel remote that is not a direct line of sight remote, works SO much better. 

100% agree

For pure conventional operation then Williams by Bachmann trains or RMT Trains are the only game in town.

The only problem I have with that is my Williams engines have no slow - they run like jack rabbits....

Any Lionchief+ set can be run on conventional control.  The engines that come in the MTH set are amazing.  As eddiem said there are no switches or anything to use the train in conventional mode.  Also, they work with the regular DCS system, so you have a lot of options.  As a side note, I wish more passenger sets were offered in the RTR sets. 

Lionchief Plus engines do not come it sets. Only in sets are LionChief engines which have substantially LESS features than LC+, one of which is that LC engines cannot run in conventional. ONLY with the remote. 

What happens when the remotes go bad on these LC engines? How does one run them then? Does Lionel program replacements?

Huh, didn't realize that, thanks.

You make a good point.  I've thought about this somewhat, actually quite a bit because I was curious why so many RTR sets have a remote (e.g., Lionel's Broadway Limited, MTH's Pennsylvania RTR set - both steamer PRR passenger sets meeting your criteria, both with remotes).

I think the real reason, whatever you are told, is that it is cheaper to include a remote.  Perversely, perhaps, providing a non-variable transformer (wall wart) and the remote control is probalbly cheaper enough, compared to including a CW-50 or whatever, to make about $5-$10 difference in the list price.  

As far as I can see, nothing is a competitive, with more "keep the price low" pressure on manufacturers, than their starter-grade RTR sets.  I give both companies credit, even raves in my posting when they turn out great products, and they do, so I feel that earns me the right to skewer them when they don't. And this is a five skewer comment for both: Both Lionel's and MTH's steamer-equiped RTr sets are annoyingly bad.   I have bought both the Broadway Limited and the MTH 2-8-0 Pennsy passenger set and two others, one from each.  All four rather quickly gave problems and ultimately I had to replace the grandkids' trains rather quickly.  (I sent LC+ replacements along with a CW-40 for power).

I recommend not buying an RTR set but shopping and buying the pieces separately. Alternately, if you can find any RTR set really cheap - even a diesel - so cheap you can't buy the track and passenger cars for less - then buy it and pitch (into you spare parts drawer, not the trash) the loco, remote, and power supply.  You can get a conventional traditional size steamer fairly cheaply, or, ideally, a Lionchief plus (Lionel's make the Mikado as PRR and you can get it for around $300 if you search).  Yes, LC+costs as much as a whole RTR set, but you get what you pay for.  then you can have the best of both worlds.  

I understand the competitive pressures on Lionel and MTH to keep price of starter RTR sets low, but I think they are shooting themselves in the foot.  People buy them and, first, they are margin quality and look, and then given that over half of the six total I have bought had annoyingly poor quality (ie., something, usually the remote system, broken), new potential future model train enthusiasts conclude: toy trains are cheap junk -- lets go get slot cars instead!

I'll get off my soapbox now.

I agree Lee...these new starter sets do not make a good first impression.

Very interesting.  I am fairly new to this whole thing and love learning opinions of the more experienced people. What is your opinion of the MTH Railking Imperial SD70ACE engine?  I thought it was pretty nice.

My 2 cents........the Lionel remotes are flimsy, especially when you see their target audience (young children). LionChief Plus, with the ability to switch to transformer control, should be the standard.

You can always purchase another remote, but you can use a transformer during the downtime. 6 year olds have a hard time understanding that a new remote is on the way......and the train won't run until it arrives....remember, we want to grow the hobby, not turn youngsters off.

Peter

Neither company's current approach is perfect.

While MTH almost hits a home run, their starter remote system is clunky to operate and I've seen small kids get frustrated because they want to instinctively point and click at the train and NOT the receiver.

However, the fact that their locos have the full ps2 internals and CAN be run under a full DCS set up OR a via a conventional transformer are a real plus.

Lionel seems to have chosen a path, that may make financial sense, but has total disregard for the system that they've already got in place. This naturally won't sit well with us, the established O gauge crowd, who probably have a TMCC or Legacy system on the layout along with a roster of command locos.

Yes, I understand that these sets aren't aimed at us, the veteran hobbyist, but guess what - we're probably the ones who are buying them or at least giving advice on what to buy.

The LC+ is close and the remote is pretty foolproof but having the ability to drop that loco into a full legacy or TMCC environment would have been great.

Lionel conventionally operated starter sets have been good to me, even with the much maligned CW-80 transformer.  Polar Express, Pennsy Flyer (4-4-2 loco version), and Coke 125th Anniversary, years of running, all still rockin'.  I did have to replace the motor in the Pennsy Flyer because the grandkids wore it clean out, no big deal.  I can only imagine the shock and horror on your part if some of you guys had ever opened up and run a brand new "Scout" set from back in the day.

Pete

Well, I am confused.

I have the Lionchief Polar Express.

There is a video by Lionel here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXQScIMl3z4

Anyway, the video indicates (at the 12:33 minute mark of the video) that a LC will run on a conventional AC layout being driven by a conventional transformer.  If you set the LC remote to its highest speed, the transformer will then override that by varying track voltage - meaning increasing or decreasing speed.  However, the LC loco will not respond to direction or whistle commands from the transformer - I think.

I am a newbie so I don't know all the limitations of the above.

RickM46

A lot of this discussion boils down to personal preference.

The following is from a dealer's perspective:

Lionel LionChief Starter Set:

A good "stand alone" set with affordable price points.

Lionel Conventional Transformer Set:

A better choice for those that intend to expand on the original set.

MTH Ready-To-Run Set:

An excellent set for the more experienced child or adult operator with features that are both expandable in size and operation capabilities.

I sell a lot of Lionel sets primarily because of the lower price points.  I sell a lot of MTH sets to consumers demanding "more" in a ready to run train set.

Rick,

While it technically is allowing control at the transformer, it's really limited. Without even basic directional control, I don't think that it can be listed as a true "feature."

Lee:

While I concur you had a rash of bad luck on your starter sets, the Quality is not that bad in general.

I have the new 10th Anniversary Polar Express, and 2 MTH starter sets. All of them have run properly right out of the box.

I will quickly admit, the separate sale engines are better detailed and often have more features and details. But that is the trade off for a starter set at or below the cost of an engine.

SJC;

Try placing the Lockon near the middle of the back side of the  loop. This will make it catch the remote far more often.  Also, ensure sunlight is not shining on the receiver/lockon. It will jam the input with an overload of light.

While I agree a RF remote would be better, this is less expensive to make and Far less to get Certified by various frequency controlling organizations. also, MTH has a decent overseas presence, they mandate different frequencies for RF than the US uses. This would require 2 different remotes depending on destination, never a good situation.

And for those swapping track, My LHS happily swaps out Fasttrack replacing it with Realtrax, which I use a lot of.  Why? My first starter set was MTH and I've stuck with it.

Now, the big layout is getting Scaletrax, Lots of it.

It's pure curiosity on my part, I got no roach in this race, but if you have the time could you describe the type of consumer who "demands more" in a starter set?  And what "more" do they demand?  I am interested to know.

Pete

I've tried positioning in various spots. My conclusion is it doesn't work well. One of my two LHS said this when I mentioned it..."Oh that thing? Its a total piece of $#*$". If it is sensitive to sunlight or standard room lights, then it is no good in my book. People who buy these things don't run in the dark all the time. If it wasn't a direct line of sight remote, I'll bet it would be a great product. I've had 3 of them - all respond the same so it wasn't a fluke on one or more of them. 

I think Lionel is headed in the right direction business wise with the starter sets.

Being a newbie, I took one look at this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXQScIMl3z4) and bought the LC Polar Express set.

I am not disappointed with my LC Polar Express; I liked it so I went and bought the B&O LC+ Pacific loco and tender which can switch between LC remote and conventional. 

I have to give it to Lionel because the LC Polar Express got me hooked so that now, I am looking at the C&O Berkshire 6-11452 and Vision Line Big Boy 4014 and at some time acquiring both. 

I don't look at the PE as a waste and will make provision to keep it in the layout.

I don't mind doing my part to keep Lionel profitable and in business.

In the best case, Lionel will bring manufacturing back here; however, getting real, that ain't going to happen anytime soon.  So, I know that out of the box, Lionel may have issues; could be worse, at least Lionel has a service center and there are good men on this forum who offer to fix such things.

My 2 cents.

RickM46

Someone who wants realism, quality and set features.  (Sound, smoke, lights, operating cars, remote couplers etc.)  In other words, more bang for the buck.

The starter set is just what the name implies. A place to start. Those who are looking beyond that should not consider one. However a good train store employee would explain the features that make a difference.

This only works as long as your remote is functional. If the remote breaks the set is not operable. I think that is the point many here are trying to make, without the remote you can't run the train. Also I believe all the Lion Chief sets some with a power pack (wall wart) only so a transformer would have to be purchased separately. The CW-80 that is included with many of their conventional sets has an MSRP of around $140 or slightly more, I don't know what the street prices are for this transformer?  

I'm sorry.  If you're suggesting that this is the typical starter set buyer I've got to disagree.  IMO a starter set buyer has no idea what they want.

Off topic - One of the finest concert grand pianos I've ever heard was the one in the window of the Wurlitzer showroom on 57th street in New York City c. 1973.  My little "wine and cheese" band (violin, piano, bass) performed there as part of some kind of promotion long since forgotten.

Pete

Yep, you are right about a broke remote; I guess if you drop it or mishandle it, your starter set is out of business.  I noticed that the remote only is available from Lionel parts and you would be down till it arrives.  You are in the same boat if your transformer goes bad; but, who drops a transformer??

RickM46

If all Lionel LC products had a conventional/remote switch, you could just go flip the switch and buy a basic transformer until the remote is back in business. Unlike the remote, you can just go out and buy a transformer. Not so with the "dedicated" remote. 

One thing to consider.  If Lionel were to put a LC/Conv switch on the set locos the next thing we would want would be a conventional type transformer, not the 'walwart' type supplied with the set.  This would drive up the price point.  I imagine this is something Lionel doesn't want.

Ask Lionel what their sales are with the new LionChief sets compared to a couple of years ago with the normal conventional starter sets.  My guess is that the sales are now through the roof.  LionChief sets are cheaper for Amazon to make and ship.  They even outright said that more can fit in a shipping container.  Starter sets are for people not already in the hobby and for people who are price sensitive. 

Two guys in my office are the typical starter set customers.  One bought a Frosty LionChief set, the other bought the Polar Express and the Penn Flyer LionChief sets.  To put up for Christmas.  Then it goes away for the rest of the year.  Newsflash -- this is how the majority of Lionel owners use their trains.  They don't care if the set doesn't expand.  They are not into the hobby full-time.  They will expand their Christmas layouts with track, trestles, buildings, switches, etc, but will never care about not being able to run the train on anything other than the remote.

All of us forget about this fact as more experience hobbyists.

That scenario is not where these LC sets are aimed at.  They are beginner sets, marketed to those that have not ever owned a train set before and most likely would be seasonal or occaisional runners that would never expand beyond just one set or two, not full-time enthusiasts as most here are.

It's like entry-level telescopes, archery sets, or binoculars that one could by at a Wal-Mart; they are designed simple for beginners.  If they decide to get serious about Astronomy, archery, or bird-watching respectively, they aren't going to buy "upgrade kits" to make the entry-level telescopes or binoculars more powerful or adaptable to the other higher-end products available, they go out and purchase the higher-level equipment and sell or give away the old one at a yard sale or online, passing it down to their children or relative, a neighboring kid or anyone else that has a budding/passive interest and it goes from there.

That's the exact reasoning (and intent) of the LionChief sets.  Should they have a selectable conventional/remote switch like the LC+ engines do?  I personally think so and based on my own exposure in the manufacturing and electronics industries, believe the cost difference would be inconsequential, and maybe LC and LC+ will at some point converge so it will be exactly that, but for now it is what it is.

It's a little difficult for me to take these issues totally seriously. No offense intended but my views are quite different and based upon my own experiences, obviously, and thus biased. If the remote fails or is damaged, you do what you do when the locomotive or transformer fails or is damaged.  You go to your dealer and ask for a replacement from existing stock.  Which is why the retail dealer is so important to any technical hobby. If you bought it at Amazon, they'll replace it with second day shipping if you're a Prime member.  Same as a stereo receiver, electric razor or underwear .

Starter sets, to beat a rapidly declining horse, are for novices.  Most folks never buy anything more.  LionChief locos operate just fine on conventional or command layouts if you upgrade your interests.  This keeps costs down by employing off the shelf technology (2.4 GHz radio frequency control) used in multiple hobbies.  It also keeps shipping costs down.  Hence you can buy a LionChief Thomas set for about $120-150 and an MTH set with higher end loco/rolling stock/transformer is twice that or more. You pay your money and you get your choice.  Different strokes for different customers as mentioned above.

That is correct, transformers may not get dropped, but they do go bad. As SJC says however, transformers are a more common item at hobby shops and easier to come by if this does happen. They are probably more expensive as well.

The 2014 Lionel Ready-To-Run catalog has 16 conventional sets (they're called "Transformer Sets") listed on pages 50 through 59 and an additional six sets that are also conventional but do not include track and transformer are on pages 60-65 under "Dealer Exclusive Sets."

As I have said in other posts I think it would be in Lionel's best interest as well as the consumer to have Lion Chief 'PLUS' in 'ALL' their ready to run sets so anyone can use the remote or flip a switch and run it with a traditional transformer which is not the case now.