what is going on with the new Lionel "E8" Diesels?

Wow!  I love a positive attitude!

FWIW, it was my intention and hope that Lionel would take this particular project seriously. I need a set of E8s, done correctly, as Lionel is certainly cabable of doing. I can reference many well done pieces out of their Standard 0 line-up which are as good or mighty close, to the best ever done in their respective cases. What gives???? How is it that some things get preferential treatment, while others wind up dragged through the dirt?  Now MTH does an E8 that is a pretty decent model, but it's not perfect. There are issues that could be addressed, number boards being one of them. OTOH, Lionel states that their "new" E8 will be a new tool.  Great!  How about showing us an E8, instead of an E7 abomination! Even an HO scale model would have been OK.  Now, my real concern is not so much the photo in the catalog, but the very real possibility that Lionel will do just exactly what IS pictured!  Guess time will tell, but this development is not good, based on previous models and research.  Will they use the existing tools, modified to produce what is pictured....and save some tooling money, or do it right?  And so it goes!

I doubt that Lionel will do a bad job on their E8/9's, but they could hit a home run if they tooled the body so that the roof panel with the dynamic brake fan was interchangeable to allow modeling it either way.  Lionel did that with their F units and I would hate to see them be an also ran on their E8/9's. 

If done correctly, I will be looking forward to a pair of Wabash A's.  I also hope to see Lionel add a B unit to the mix.  Then I would order some Santa Fe configuration, but only if they get the dynamic brake issue correct, and only if the offered a B unit.

Although the catalog picture is a mish mash of E units, there is no D/B fan, which for me is good.

I think that says a lot J Daddy. 

"Criticism

If nothing bad is ever said,

nothing good will ever get done."

Over simplistic, of course, and like most of these type sayings, often untrue. And if the criticism is said the wrong way, it totally destroys any good that might come of it. A better saying might be "Think before you criticize, and do it with care."

If you are a possible buyer of this offering from Lionel take note that Lionel is aware that the illustration is not a good photo shop effort and doesn't represent what they want to make here.  In addition, you can help Lionel  to create a better model of these locomotives if you contact them directly about specific details and features that these locomotives should have and are a concern to you. They are aware of the inaccuracies in the roof arrangement and porthole positioning on the carbody as shown in the catalog. They have used the numbers of the E9s in the UP collection for their catalog illustration so its quite likely that they might examine the UP units in more detail for the tooling for this item.

Will it be the K Line Tooling? who knows. Lionel has access to the tooling used for former K Line steam locomotives that are now part of the current line so maybe they have access to the E8/9 tooling as well.

The best thing you can do if you want to see an improved model over whats shown in the catalog at this point is to call or email Lionel with information and details covering specific concerns for these locomotives. They will be listening for you.

Nah, that's way too much work.  I'll just buy it, be happy that it is new and shiny when I open the box the first time, run it for a while until I get something newer, then put it on the shelf, like everything else.

Don, Is that a portable loco jack I see next to the lift pad?

Do NOT get complacent on this issue, folks!  Remember we are dealing with the same outfit that gave you "one wheel drive"  and once claimed in their catalog that the FM Train Master had six engines!  Brilliance in motion!  

It's a 'guy-thing', of course,...so my wife informs me!....that we focus on and get hung up on the pretty pictures in the catalog.

But, take heart.  For those of you who enjoy reading "the fine print", there are a couple of noteworthy items in the same cattlehog:

Inside cover: "Items depicted in this catalog are subject to change in price, color, size, design, and availability."

Back cover: "At Lionel, we are committed to providing our customers with superior-quality products and service."

(yawn)

...........

At this point, it's a waiting game.  We'll have to wait see if and when a preproduction sample leaks out.

At this point, I'm going to assume the old K-line tooling will be used, although it seems a lack of respect of customer integrity not present a reasonable illustration of the product.

There may be some that feel slapping some portholes of an image of the wrong locomotive is a reasonable representation, others like myself, do not. 

Might as well throw six wheel trucks and two extra portholes on the traditional F3 and call it an E8, then use the disclaimer as a shield...

But either way, the point is moot now until something in three dimensions shows up.

Rusty

Yes valid point so when are these showing up? Any ideas? 

I'm sure he would have been able to figure it out! 

I'm not waiting to see the units if they are right or wrong. I decided to buy some WBB E7's and upgrade them and detail them to make a engine set for my CZ. They may not be perfect but they will be close. Both units will be powered and both will have sound and  command. 

Even Lionel's CZ passenger cars will not have a obs. dome, Lionel told me at York that was a fact. So Lionel cars cancelled and AtlasO CZ cars in. 

Interesting.  I had my Weaver E8's out a couple months ago.  They date to the early 1990's and I believe MTH now has the Weaver molds.  I did extensive upgrades to my E8's.  There also appears to be E-something from 3rdRail.  So there should be some current choices without going back to 1990's technology.  I hope it works well for Lionel and Lionel consumers.
Here are some pictures, not photo-shopped, running on forum member, Patrick H's layout.







I believe the recent MTH Pennsy Bennett Levin E8's offering also has ditch lights and detail work done on the front pilot (Weaver molds).  Roof detail was not correct but still a very good looking/running model. IMO.   Complete with the Weaver B unit that the Pennsy never had.

Actually, they were Samhongsa molds, not Weaver molds. Samhongsa was the Korean manufacturer that did some production for Weaver back then. They also did production extensively for MTH, Williams, and a little bit for Lionel. Here's from the Weaver site:

The Samhongsa/Weaver Team also ventured into the plastic market. Numerous plastic diesels were produced: SD40-2, C628, C630, Baldwin Sharks and E8's. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Weaver originally commissioned Samhongsa to produce the E8 models for them, so while Samhongsa created the molds and manufactured the E8s for Weaver, Weaver owned or leased the tooling, same with the SD40-2 and the Alco Century molds.  MTH later bought the aforementioned tooling from Weaver and Samhongsa continued producing them for MTH until the Samhongsa partnership dissolved and MTH transferred the tooling to their existing overseas facility.

Also as an aside, MTH was the one that designed the art-deco style logo artwork for Weaver's boxes.

At least that's how I recall it,

Including some nice stock cars. 

I think you may be right in your explanation about this. I don't know the exact details as to who actually ended up with ownership, or of course what the contract between Samhongsa and Weaver provided. I'm glad you provided a more detailed discussion.

My only point was to clarify that Weaver didn't make the molds or produce the engines - they were made by Samhongsa for Weaver. Samhongsa certainly did some beautiful work in those days.

Mike-

I really like the layout, those Pennsy E-8/9's look like they are walking on water! 

The Weaver / Sam E8 is the same body shell tooling used on the original MTH E8. I still have my B&O set in Proto 1.  This is not a bad model, although some details could be up-graded.  Mine run quite well, and it's time to install some MRC sound in them in addition to the PS1 stuff.  Lionel could do a superior E8......could !

I'm an optimist on this. 

I would be very surprised if their E8/9's didn't rival their E6's for kudos.  Remember them?  

I just hope they're not as 'rarefied' as their E6's!!!   (Anyone been watching the secondary market prices on the E6's?)

Ah, the anticipation!  Just like Christmas!

KD

Lionel could absolutely do an awesome E8/9. They proved that with their 2003+ F3/7s and PAs, etc.  On the other hand I have given Lionel the benefit of the doubt one too many times and have been lucky enough to back out of reservations at the last minute without penalty when what finally showed up was less than I expected.  But I really don't like doing that to the dealers.

It would be nice if someone from Lionel would confirm or deny reality. Someone saying Lionel said just doesn't cut it.  It's not official Lionel unless they say it without the plausable deniability thru a 3rd party. 

I would really like to reserve a pair of Burlingtons to go along with my 3rd Rail E7s but it's just too risky for me.

The problem is that if enough people are concerned enough not to reserve which ends up with there not being sufficient reservations and they are canceled.  That's just a lose lose.

It would be nice if someone from Lionel would confirm or deny reality. Someone saying Lionel said just doesn't cut it.  It's not official Lionel unless they say it without the plausable deniability thru a 3rd party.

You might contacting Lionel directly about your concerns. I think they would be receptive to your comments and suggestions regarding what they need to do to make this model what it needs to be for satisfaction. Feedback would help them a great deal in my opinion. I did get a response to my inquiry and comments

Sorry, what I mean't to say is if it is not in print from Lionel, not just an employee, there is no commitment and it's meaningless.  Used to talk to too many companies who would later say "that person was not authorized to say that" as a get out of jail free card.

When I was a manager there was only one thing that would absolutely get you fired and that was it;  telling a customer ANYTHING that was not in the official playbook.

I love the UP E-9's but could not find a way to justify its high cost.

Especially so with identically equipped sets of F-7's in the same catalog are priced $200.00 less. 

I'm not alone on this observation..

Joe 

I too am thinking about picking up a set but I do not trust either of the "Big 2" to get things right on these E-Units.

I remember the MTH Seaboard E6 ABA from a few years ago that came with a Mars light (2 headlights) when it should have had just one.  I did get the MTH B&O E6 ABA with the correct 1 headlight configuration (no Mars light) since they did that one right.  I cannot understand why MTH did not get the Seaboard version right?!  But I did not buy it because it just looked so wrong.  I picked up the MTH Seaboard Centipede instead since they were still in stock at the time and MTH got that one pretty much right.

I do have the Lionel Southern E6 AA set from a few years ago which is very nicely done.  So, I will wait and see what these actually look like before forking over the cash...

You and me both.  If they are as nice as the new tooling F units or PAs my money is waiting.    The question is, how many people feel the same way and thus potentially insufficient reservations resulting in cancellation.  I know there is a group that says "it's Lionel, that's good enough for me"  but I'm not one of them.  Lionel has said trust us on this but, once bitten twice shy.

It would have been nice if they had put in some updated visuals of the E8/9s in this latest "catalog" but alas.

I stumbled on this thread today, and find it amusing. There were so many variations of E units depending on the time they were in service. Take Don's real one photo...here's the same unit, #951, back in 1979. 

And, how many lights on the nose?

I think I'll take the Lionel unit any way I can get them!  LOL

But "headlights" on the nose was usually road specific.  I believe that UP had both one and two (with/without Mars light), so either way suffices.  Other roads had either just one or two (with the Mars light).  Like the MTH Seaboard E6 I mentioned, just a little bit of homework would have allowed MTH to get that one right...and they obviously did not do it!  I hope Lionel does their homework.

I believe that most of us are not asking for perfection, just get the basics right!

Wouldn't that be the land of the free and the home of the brave !    Go ahead.....Lionel....fix those pilots and mount those Kadee's !