WHAT is the difference between TMCC and Legacy?

@Landsteiner posted:

"a Legacy base can still address TMCC locomotives without the BASE-1 (I was presuming yes, but wanted to be sure)."

All TMCC equipped locos will respond to the Legacy Base, the 1-L Base or the Base 1.

Okay, cool and thanks. I guess I dodged a bullet in fixing my remote and getting one to fully work, but I suppose if it fails again, it'll be CAB-1L/BASE-1L time in the future.

Another question - do any of the BASE-1L's have a DB9 conncetor, if I were to hook up my laptop? Apparently, there is a program out there to allow me to control trains using a Windows app, connected to DB9 (I have plenty of USB to serial Keyspan adapters for my retro computer hobby, so that part is easy).

@Landsteiner posted:

All TMCC equipped locos will respond to the Legacy Base, the 1-L Base or the Base 1.

If programmed properly in the engine type.   Remember, when you assign a new ID, the default is Legacy.

@Paul Khoury posted:

I presume the quilling feature applies to both horns and whistles alike? And if so, it'd be the equivalent to me finagling how far open the valve is on my Graham White, say with my K5LA (how many bells emit sound until it's fully open)? That's one thing that I do envy/miss on my locomotives. The older TMCC stuff had horns that would change intensity at random, but it's profoundly annoying and not very realistic. The RS-11 I picked up sounds a little more accurate, but still not ideal.

Remember, that's only on Legacy locomotives, the TMCC models do not have this capability no matter what remote you use for them.

@Paul Khoury posted:

That part I pretty much figured. I think the crystal is 27.55MHz to be specific, but I'm guessing different crystals were available if individuals had different segments on a layout and wanted overlapping systems? I guess more of my question was whether one needed to add a Legacy base in addition to the BASE-1, or if a Legacy base can still address TMCC locomotives without the BASE-1 (I was presuming yes, but wanted to be sure).

There was one other crystal set for the original TMCC set as I recall, I only saw one once.  I just have Legacy and my MTH TIU on my system, I can run any TMCC/Legacy locomotive ever made with this combo.

@Paul Khoury posted:

Another question - do any of the BASE-1L's have a DB9 conncetor, if I were to hook up my laptop? Apparently, there is a program out there to allow me to control trains using a Windows app, connected to DB9 (I have plenty of USB to serial Keyspan adapters for my retro computer hobby, so that part is easy).

The BASE1L has a serial connector.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If programmed properly in the engine type.   Remember, when you assign a new ID, the default is Legacy.

Is it different (I confess I didn't read the manual portion for Legacy) than the CAB-1, where it's ENG train number and then set (after the RUN/PRG switch is set to program)?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The BASE1L has a serial connector.

DB9? I looked at some on ebay and didn't see a DB9 on a lot of those, unless I was looking at the wrong item. It also seems that the BASE1L omits the direct lockon device, so I'm presuming it has protection built-in? Right now, my Powerbase 180 connects to the direct lockon, and then goes to my lockon (with the BASE-1 also going to the direct lockon). Of course, the short protection has helped a few times for minor derailments (and one major one, when a friend was operating a legacy locomotive with my phone and didn't watch her speed, rearending my train).

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Remember, that's only on Legacy locomotives, the TMCC models do not have this capability no matter what remote you use for them.

That I'm well aware of, and it's not a big deal. The horns on my original locomotives (6-18254 and 6-18238) both suck anyways, so long term, I'll probably sell those. The RS-11's horn (6-28522) sounds a lot better, even with its automatic quilling feature.

I was more interested in quilling for the F40PH and P42 that I recently picked up. Don't have those models handy, but they're both recent Legacy units with bluetooth.

@Paul Khoury posted:

DB9? I looked at some on ebay and didn't see a DB9 on a lot of those, unless I was looking at the wrong item. Most likely you were looking at powermasters.

It also seems that the BASE1L omits the direct lockon device, so I'm presuming it has protection built-in? No, the Base-1L does nothing with power, it is transmitting a radio signal, so no current limiting or sensing of any kind- it connects to the track via 1 wire. Again, a Legacy powermaster is a similar sized and shaped plastic box, but it is not a "base".

Right now, my Powerbase 180 connects to the direct lockon, and then goes to my lockon (with the BASE-1 also going to the direct lockon). Of course, the short protection has helped a few times for minor derailments (and one major one, when a friend was operating a legacy locomotive with my phone and didn't watch her speed, rearending my train).

@Vernon Barry posted:

Thanks. So much to learn and absorb.

@Paul Khoury posted:

DB9? I looked at some on ebay and didn't see a DB9 on a lot of those, unless I was looking at the wrong item. It also seems that the BASE1L omits the direct lockon device, so I'm presuming it has protection built-in? Right now, my Powerbase 180 connects to the direct lockon, and then goes to my lockon (with the BASE-1 also going to the direct lockon). Of course, the short protection has helped a few times for minor derailments (and one major one, when a friend was operating a legacy locomotive with my phone and didn't watch her speed, rearending my train).

The BASE1L has a serial port 100% of the time.  The PowerMasters don't have a serial port.

The command bases don't handle any current, so other than perhaps a transient protection component on the single track connection, no protection is needed.

I use the PH180 transformers directly.  I don't use the TMCC Direct Lockon because it kills the MTH DCS signal, and I also run lots of MTH stuff.  The PH180 transformer has an excellent electronically controlled circuit breaker, no extra protection needed.

@Paul Khoury posted:

I was more interested in quilling for the F40PH and P42 that I recently picked up. Don't have those models handy, but they're both recent Legacy units with bluetooth.

Any Legacy locomotive will have the quilling capability.  Note that the CAB1L quilling capability is not as flexible as the full Legacy CAB2 controls.

@Paul Khoury posted:

You're surprised, or not surprised? $1799 is nuts! That's what I just paid for a new Toughbook, but my Toughbook is A LOT more full featured than the CAB2. Isn't the CAB2 just a simple microcontroller, keypad, matrix LCD and some backlit LEDs on the keypad? Otherwise relatively simple, not that much intelligence under the hood. Now if it were a full blown computer, I'd have much different opinions.

It was sarcasm, this the 'insane'. But people apparently pay it. There's a cab1L/base1L on there at ~600, I'm watching to see if it goes for that.

I'm more curious what the cab2/base2 does that the cab1L doesn't.

I wouldn't mind a cab1L for the base 3, if it isn't lacking a ton of features.

@Rod M. posted:

I'm more curious what the cab2/base2 does that the cab1L doesn't.

Quite a lot actually.

VS

The Cab-1L has no brake slider, and the bell and whistle controls are just buttons. So while it can quill a whistle or horn, it's not exactly the same thing. Again, the brake slider matters- it's a way to change the dynamic sounds of a locomotive- both steam or diesel increasing the bass of the chuffing, or exhaust note of the diesel.

It really matters when you get into specialized functions like a Visionline Niagara- you don't have AUX3 to be able to manually trigger the popoff valve smoke effect.

Another aspect- lighting menu only exists on full Legacy.  An example from recent modern Steam equipped with bi-color class lamps.

Another great example is the differences between Legacy and CAB (including CAB-1L) modes is for accessories. This is where the button area icons change on the CAB 2 to provide icons for functions specific to that accessory.

Legacy crane car

Otherwise, on a CAB-1L, you would have to remember all this and what number does what.

Thank you Vernon! In my little corner of the world,since I don't have a legacy system, I'll probably never see one since they're no longer made.

I'm sure the visual of the cab2 makes it worth while.

I'm sure I'll try to find a semi current tablet to use with the base 3 and my wiu

Will the Base3 be the way to go, simplifying it all and operating it on your phone or tablet ?

@Arthur posted:

Will the Base3 be the way to go, simplifying it all and operating it on your phone or tablet ?

I think the answer to that will be revealed when people get to operating the BASE3 in their environment.

I can’t imagine the Base 3 and tablet/smart phone setup being better in any way other than 4 digit addressing which doesn’t matter to me, but who knows? I used the lionchief app on my phone with my very first locomotive and did not like it at all  

I love using the Cab 2 system I’ve had for a little over two years. If you can find one at a good price I would say buy it. I got mine before the prices went crazy so I was lucky. 😉

@Raven87 posted:

I can’t imagine the Base 3 and tablet/smart phone setup being better in any way other than 4 digit addressing which doesn’t matter to me, but who knows? I used the lionchief app on my phone with my very first locomotive and did not like it at all  

Base3 will provide the following, probably among other items...

1) It is available for < $500 vs a used Cab2/Base2 today.
2) Allows control of LionChief bluetooth engines using the current Cab2 remote.
3) Includes wifi where the Base2 doesn't without purchase of the LCS wifi module
4) I believe the Cab3 app will support all legacy features not currently supported by the LionChief  app (eg quilling whistle)

If you have a Cab2/Base2 and aren't interested in the above, there is no reason to buy it.  For those that haven't been able to acquire a reasonably priced Base2, it's a no brainer.

Some other misc items I recall that the Base3 provides...
- No additional power for the PDI cable interface for LCS
- Additional coverage area (likely relevant to very large layouts/clubs)

I'm sure others might have items they are keen on.

@David_NJ posted:

Base3 will provide the following, probably among other items...

1) It is available for < $500 vs a used Cab2/Base2 today.

However, the BASE2 will be selling at a huge discount when the BASE3 is available.  I predict that the BASE2 without the CAB2 will be $200 or less when the BASE3 is finally available.

The CAB2, OTOH, will still be priced sky high I suspect since there are no more of those.  The only reason the Legacy system is selling at such a premium is it's the only game in town right now.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

However, the BASE2 will be selling at a huge discount when the BASE3 is available.  I predict that the BASE2 without the CAB2 will be $200 or less when the BASE3 is finally available.

We'll have to see if people start to split up their set. If someone with a 990 set gets a Base3, they could let their Base2 go but that gives up the Cab2 charger, correct? If someone wants Wifi they will still need the LCS Wifi (~$125-$150) + power +DB9?

Will the new Cab3 app work with the Base2+wifi or just the Base3?

@David_NJ posted:

We'll have to see if people start to split up their set. If someone with a 990 set gets a Base3, they could let their Base2 go but that gives up the Cab2 charger, correct? If someone wants Wifi they will still need the LCS Wifi (~$125-$150) + power +DB9?

Will the new Cab3 app work with the Base2+wifi or just the Base3?

Considering one could sell a BASE2 without the CAB2 for a good chunk of change, replacing batteries in the CAB2 occasionally may be a worthwhile trade-off. The used auction market will determine that when the time comes.

Dave Olsen Recently mentioned that the CAB3 app will only work with the BASE3 for now. They might expand its functionality to include the BASE2 & Wifi module in the future.

@David_NJ posted:

We'll have to see if people start to split up their set. If someone with a 990 set gets a Base3, they could let their Base2 go but that gives up the Cab2 charger, correct? If someone wants Wifi they will still need the LCS Wifi (~$125-$150) + power +DB9?

Many people don't use the charger in the BASE2 as it overheats the batteries and CAB2 remote.  I use the #993 charging base for mine, I just swap the remotes when one gets low on battery.  A ton of people simply pop the batteries out of the CAB2 and swap fresh ones and charge the discharged ones externally.

If they sell their BASE2, they don't need the WiFi adapter, the BASE3 has WiFi.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

If they sell their BASE2, they don't need the WiFi adapter, the BASE3 has WiFi.

The people purchasing the Base2 could need the wifi adapter + additional items not needed with the Base3. Adding in the rest it is not a huge savings with the possible drawbacks mentioned above.

@David_NJ posted:

The people purchasing the Base2 could need the wifi adapter + additional items not needed with the Base3. Adding in the rest it is not a huge savings with the possible drawbacks mentioned above.

Yep, hard to say how it all shakes out, but I'm set anyway.

@H1000 posted:

Dave Olsen Recently mentioned that the CAB3 app will only work with the BASE3 for now. They might expand its functionality to include the BASE2 & Wifi module in the future.

Wait. What?

We were told that we would be able to separately purchase the CAB3 app to use with our LCS Wi-Fi modules back when this was announced.

@rplst8 posted:

Wait. What?

We were told that we would be able to separately purchase the CAB3 app to use with our LCS Wi-Fi modules back when this was announced.

Dave explains this in the Virtual Legacy Users Group.  The video below starts at the 53:26 mark right before we discuss this.

@rplst8 posted:

Wait. What?

We were told that we would be able to separately purchase the CAB3 app to use with our LCS Wi-Fi modules back when this was announced.

Also as Dave explains here starting at 48:56, the Cab3 App will be a free download now.

Not a huge surprise that it won't work with the Legacy command base, especially if it's a free download.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not a huge surprise that it won't work with the Legacy command base, especially if it's a free download.

It being free has nothing to do with it not working with a Legacy Base and LCS WiFi.  Dave explained the reasoning as it just became to incompatible as development went on.  He doesn't rule out that may change.

So of course to use the free Cab 3 App you must buy the Cab 3 Base. Not a surprise to me either. 😉

If they change that then good on Lionel.

@MartyE posted:

It being free has nothing to do with it not working with a Legacy Base and LCS WiFi.  Dave explained the reasoning as it just became to incompatible as development went on.  He doesn't rule out that may change.

Well, maybe it doesn't or maybe it does, we'll never know.

What seems pretty clear is whatever WiFi capability we now have for the current Legacy/WiFi app setup is what we're going to live with.  One more reason for me to prefer physical remotes that don't stop working when the phone manufacturer decides to change something in the phone software interface.

@Raven87 posted:

So of course to use the free Cab 3 App you must buy the Cab 3 Base. Not a surprise to me either. 😉

That's not entirely accurate. You can use the CAB3b side of the app to run up to 3 Bluetooth engines without a BASE3.

@H1000 posted:

That's not entirely accurate. You can use the CAB3b side of the app to run up to 3 Bluetooth engines without a BASE3.

Even Legacy Units? I didn’t think that was possible without a base unit?

@Raven87 posted:

Even Legacy Units? I didn’t think that was possible without a base unit?

They of course must have BlueTooth capabilities.

@Raven87 posted:

Even Legacy Units? I didn’t think that was possible without a base unit?

Sure, I've run several of my Legacy locomotives with BT direct by disabling the command base.  However, unless they're 2022 or later models, the range is less than stellar, being on the wrong end of my 12 x 24 layout means I lose the BT connection.

@MartyE posted:

They of course must have BlueTooth capabilities.

So meaning that unless your engines are not blue tooth equipped then you still need a base right?

But if you have BT legacy locomotives you don’t need a base?

Thanks for the clarification.

@Raven87 posted:

So meaning that unless your engines are not blue tooth equipped then you still need a base right?

But if you have BT legacy locomotives you don’t need a base?

Older Legacy & TMCC engines without Bluetooth will need a BASE to run in command mode.

The newer Legacy engines that come equipped with Bluetooth (symbol on the bottom of the engine) will run with the CAB3b side of app, with no base required. Now, just because it's the CAB3 app you are using, I don't think you'll have access to all of the advanced features when using the CAB3b Bluetooth interface vs. the CAB3l & BASE3 setup to run your engines.

As I understand, the CAB3b app will replace the current Lionchief app.

The Cab3 app can’t control switches without a base right?

That is a big factor there.