What was the state of the hobby before MTH?

@Scott J posted:

When I started O gauge modeling I knew two things: Atlas track and eBay. At that time MTH PS3 engines were just coming out. I made some good purchases and some not so good. I figured out pretty quickly which products had the quality and detail I liked. I joined the forum and quickly moved up to MTH engines with DCS and MTH and Lionel scale rolling stock. I have a couple Legacy engines. A while ago I checked an eBay seller's inventory and was almost all pre-orange box Lionel. The sizes were very semi-scale and not very detailed.

I also know about Weaver (I have lots of these) and even have a couple Pecos River cars. If you were in the hobby then what were you running and what products were popular if you wanted a high level of detail? Also, did MTH's entry into O gauge stimulate the hobby into higher fidelity and detail or was that already taking place?

Thanks

I rejoined the O gauge hobby in 1997 after a lapse of almost four decades. My first purchase was an MTH Premier New York Central Hudson #5344 (20-3020-1 with PS1) at a train show. I still have it. I've favored MTH products ever since but also have bought items from all the O gauge manufacturers of the modern era.

I credit MTH and Mike Wolf with having started the modern O gauge hobby by making hundreds of prototypical scale-sized locomotives and railroad cars that changed the hobby from one that was rooted in the past to what it is today. In my opinion, MTH has been the great O gauge innovator and still builds quality products. And other manufacturers continue to make new model trains with tooling developed by MTH.

MELGAR

Any of us that were active before MTH entered the fray will likely agree that Mike Wolfe truly gave the hobby a tremendous boost when he started putting his name on the product. Prior to this he greatly assisted Lionel by developing several beautiful O scale products for them in addition to their "Lionel Classics" series from Mike's contacts through Williams Trains over many years. The book 'A Toy Train Story' is a wealth of information and highly recommended to learn of this fascinating history in O Gauge RR ing.

Hey Melgar - I had pre-ordered the much hyped and vaunted Lionel 700E before it's introduction as I had a retail hobby shop at the time. Sold several and held one back for me. When the MTH No. 5344 hit the shelves I gave it a try as well. My Lionel would barely handle 5 of the newly issued K-Line 72' heavyweights but the MTH Hudson walked away with them. It's smoke was fantastic and the detail was more than comparable. Both models were exceptional in appearance but the modern can motored MTH was far superior operationally.  I sold the 700E

MTH definitely forced Lionel to up their game or we would still be buying squint-eyed F3's with new paint jobs!

Thanks Mr Wolfe and your whole team for taking the step back then...

To go along with what Melgar more poetically said, MTH obviously upped the ante for the 3-rail hobby and gave Lionel a good wake-up call.

But as far as the push towards higher levels of scale fidelity and detail, I think you have to give K-Line some credit here. They didn't produce anywhere near the same variety of products as did MTH, but they did produce some engines and rolling stock that most folks agree, at that time, set new standards for levels of detail. I remember product reviews of that time period all saying the same thing when those items first came out. Their Hudson and GP38 come to mind.

So much so that MTH (in a very shrewd business move) relegated some of their older, original former "Premiere" line locos to what they called their new "Railking Scale" line, because those models didn't have the same levels of fine detail that was now available on some of these new K-Line products.

And I say all of this as a fan of K-Line, but NOT the scale stuff, but rather their original traditional style line-up of trains that got them started in the first place. BUT not to let my own preferences blind me, it's also obvious (despite all their failings that ultimately led to their demise), they raised the bar for the 3-rail train industry with the detail levels of some of their scale products.

I agree with the above but I also think that Lionel was offering nice products in the Neil Young era - I recall picking up one of the newly tooled PA-1s with TMCC and "signal sounds" -- had to add the PB-1 to get the full RS set-up.  Still have that set.  Also the S-1 switcher - nicely detailed, TMCC, nice sounds.  The MTH stuff was and is really terrific and I think it did force Lionel and others to really put their best foot forward.  At the same time, however, as much as I have a lot of MTH stuff, and enjoy all of it, DCS can be a bit of a pain in the rear from time to time.  This is just my N=1 experience, but TMCC / Legacy has always been pretty foolproof, at least on my layouts.  But every so often DCS will make you pay attention.  But overall a small price to pay for the quality of the competition MTH brought.  I take Sam's comment on the 700E - I have had the same experience relative to the MTH Hudsons.

I always say we still have it very good.  When I was a young child in the hobby - late 1970s into the mid-1980s, the choices were post-war, post-war remakes, and MPC take-offs on post-war (like the FA Alcos or the EP5s) that were often cheapened / lightened as compared to original postwar.  Today we have MTH, Lionel, Atlas (original and MTH Atlas), Weaver, and some others I am likely forgetting.  The only real loss to the hobby has been Williams - it seems like the owners just aren't that invested in O gauge.  But other than this, we have far more choice, even if it is not the boom times of the late 1990s into the mid 2000 / early 2000s.  But yes, MTH did help spur that development.  

Scale fidelity in three rail O gauge began with Williams, Right of Way, and others, but not a full range of products as MTH, and then K-Line, Lionel and Weaver produced in the last 25-30 years. 

MTH became a big factor in the hobby between about 1995-2005.  Some estimates suggest their dollar volume sales may have exceeded Lionel's in the late 1990s, for example.   Before MTH became a major competitor and innovator, Neil Young and Dick Kughn were already working on pushing the envelope of command control and sound quality.  TMCC and Railsounds debuted in 1995-1996.  MTH was making progress in the marketplace, but still restricted to a distinctly annoying (to me) and inferior control system modified from QSI which they called PS1.  A true kludge, in my view, in terms of operational ease and sound quality.   Activating features required tiresome and unreliable pumping of the transformer handle.  A standing joke amongst those who were using TMCC, the first commercially available command system in three rail O gauge.

So innovation and features weren't as one sided as some seem to believe. If you were operating only conventional during 1996-2002, MTH was equivalent and sometimes superior to Lionel for some issues, but definitely not ease of use, sound features,  command capability, speed control,  sound quality and reliability due to the peculiarities of PS1.  If the battery went dead with PS1, you were in a pickle, sometimes requiring a dealer's intervention. PS1 was not compatible with some solid state transformers.  It was only happy with pure sine wave transformers, mostly from the postwar era. The main operating electronics of PS1 could get fouled up under certain circumstances, requiring reprogramming with a special reset chip which did not come with each locomotive.  Some folks loved and still love PS1, but not the many of us for whom command control (TMCC) was a wonderful innovation.

It wasn't until 2002 that MTH's DCS came out to control PS2 locos that started being made in 2000. Many folks found DCS considerably less easy to use and predictable than TMCC.  So it wasn't all successes for MTH. For various reasons, things actually started to go south for their role in marketplace in the mid-2000s.  Lionel, whose leadership had been seriously challenged, regained some of that role with Legacy and improved scale features of appearance.  For all the criticisms launched at Lionel during 1995-2024, they are the last full line manufacturer standing, so they must have been doing something right all along.

MTH made some great contributions to the hobby to be sure,  but is presently a shadow of its former self.   It's not clear to me how future development of DCS/PS3 will occur, for one important issue.   What happens when Andy Edleman, Rich Foster and Dave Kriebehl retire?  Is Atlas going to be the phoenix that revitalizes the MTH product line? History is rarely as simple as it seems.  I haven't mentioned the lawsuits and other distractions and waste of resources that occurred during the period of 1995-2005.   

You want a train set for your friend, child or grandchild today?  Your choices right now are Lionel LionChief and not much else in three rail O gauge.

Thanks for all of the great responses. These are a little different than I expected but are better for it. I totally forgot about K-Line! I just purchased some of their die cast coal cars on eBay and they are awesome in quality. I thought they were supposed to be a LESS expensive version of Lionel but maybe not. Shadow or not, I am supremely grateful that we didn't lose MTH completely and that Atlas is offering engines with DCS. For the way I have my layout set up I was never able to get into a rhythm with Legacy engines. I also agree that we should be grateful for what we DO have.

@Landsteiner posted:

Scale fidelity in three rail O gauge began with Williams, Right of Way, and others, but not a full range of products as MTH, and then K-Line, Lionel and Weaver produced in the last 25-30 years.

MTH became a big factor in the hobby between about 1995-2005.  Some estimates suggest their dollar volume sales may have exceeded Lionel's in the late 1990s, for example.   Before MTH became a major competitor and innovator, Neil Young and Dick Kughn were already working on pushing the envelope of command control and sound quality.  TMCC and Railsounds debuted in 1995-1996.  MTH was making progress in the marketplace, but still restricted to a distinctly annoying (to me) and inferior control system modified from QSI which they called PS1.  A true kludge, in my view, in terms of operational ease and sound quality.   Activating features required tiresome and unreliable pumping of the transformer handle.  A standing joke amongst those who were using TMCC, the first commercially available command system in three rail O gauge.

So innovation and features weren't as one sided as some seem to believe. If you were operating only conventional during 1996-2002, MTH was equivalent and sometimes superior to Lionel for some issues, but definitely not ease of use, sound features,  command capability, speed control,  sound quality and reliability due to the peculiarities of PS1.  If the battery went dead with PS1, you were in a pickle, sometimes requiring a dealer's intervention. PS1 was not compatible with some solid state transformers.  It was only happy with pure sine wave transformers, mostly from the postwar era. The main operating electronics of PS1 could get fouled up under certain circumstances, requiring reprogramming with a special reset chip which did not come with each locomotive.  Some folks loved and still love PS1, but not the many of us for whom command control (TMCC) was a wonderful innovation.

It wasn't until 2002 that MTH's DCS came out to control PS2 locos that started being made in 2000. Many folks found DCS considerably less easy to use and predictable than TMCC.  So it wasn't all successes for MTH. For various reasons, things actually started to go south for their role in marketplace in the mid-2000s.  Lionel, whose leadership had been seriously challenged, regained some of that role with Legacy and improved scale features of appearance.  For all the criticisms launched at Lionel during 1995-2024, they are the last full line manufacturer standing, so they must have been doing something right all along.

MTH made some great contributions to the hobby to be sure,  but is presently a shadow of its former self.   It's not clear to me how future development of DCS/PS3 will occur, for one important issue.   What happens when Andy Edleman, Rich Foster and Dave Kriebehl retire?  Is Atlas going to be the phoenix that revitalizes the MTH product line? History is rarely as simple as it seems.  I haven't mentioned the lawsuits and other distractions and waste of resources that occurred during the period of 1995-2005.   

You want a train set for your friend, child or grandchild today?  Your choices right now are Lionel LionChief and not much else in three rail O gauge.

I don't understand how all your comments about Lionel post-MTH's arrival on the O-gauge model railroad scene, your TMCC vs. PS-1 vs. DCS ease-of-use comparison, and your assessment of current-day MTH and Atlas apply to this topic thread.

The title of the thread is "What was the state of the hobby before MTH".

Specifically, to the question of scale fidelity in O scale, high fidelity was around long before Mike Wolf was born.  Two rail O scale has had high fidelity for nearly 100 years in some cases and more consistently after WWII.  Many of these models are still highly prized finds that retain a good level of value to this day. 

In my opinion, Mike Wolf helped bring scale O cars and locomotives to the 3 rail world in quantities and prices that made scale O much more obtainable for more hobbyists.  This is evidenced by his involvement with Williams in the late 80's, the introduction of the scale brass steam locomotives, and at Weaver prior to forming MTH.  A great deal of early MTH tooling is former Weaver tooling. 

Prior to this, 1:48 scale O was much more of a craftsman's hobby.  Recognizing that there was a substantially larger market in the ready to run 3 rail world is perhaps Mike Wolf's greatest contribution to scale O.

Having been a committed HO modeler before I discovered the world of scale O in 2003, MTH products played a partial role in my transition to O scale and at least for me, was a gateway to the larger market of scale O products in general.   

The Fundimensions and early Kughn eras were "extensions" of the postwar era.  Trains made in the postwar style with incremental improvements like electronic horns, can motors, and electronic E units.

Between 1985 and 1990 K-Line, Weaver, and Williams entered the market with new tooling and new products that were different from Lionel's.  So the state of the hobby was one that was evolving towards today's hobby.  Albeit slowly.

MTH burst onto the scene ca. 1995 after the Kughn - Wolf breakup.  MTH had a lot of product that made everyone else improve their product.

I started collecting trains when MTH put out it's first catalogs for Scale Challengers and Dash 8's in early 1990s. Lionel was putting out oversized versions of SD40's and other Diesels, not scale models. MTH, as a subcontractor, was suppling scale sized steam engines like the Reading T-1 and Pennsy turbine. The diesels were selling north of $500 and steamers north of $1000 a piece. Lionel was putting out traditional steamers with "steam sounds for around $400. These engines jumped in price by up to 50% in a month or 2 after being released. But they were mostly made in America. K-Line competed on traditional sized ALCO FA and later passenger cars. K-Line ALCO FA pairs sold for around $125. Lionel's were about $200 (both made in USA). MPC and LTI F3 passenger sets with aluminum cars without interiors from $1000 to $2000+. Weaver made a few scale items mainly for the 2-rail market. Custom tinplate was being made Rich-Art and Williams. Williams offered items like Oversized Diesels (SD45 comes to mind) at half of lionel cost and scale brass steamers for over $1000. Weaver and Right-of-Way joined Williams in importing brass steamers at similar prices.

MTH came along with scale and traditional sized steam and diesel with a focus on accuracy and modern technology at about 60% of Lionel cost, but made in Asia.

The effect was to create a new market that allowed a broader population to buy and operate trains that only existed in the 2-rail market.

MTH, did create problems for itself, as it grew, but without MTH, O gauge trains would only have modernized at a glacial pace and at a greater cost that would have kept them out of the financial reach of many.

K-Line and Atlas did not venture into scale train production until MTH proved its viability.

The neat thing about MTH before the great collapse was the variety of stuff they brought to market that Lionel never produced.  There were a ton of MTH locomotives that to this day have never been produced by Lionel.

My opinion is based on my reactions over time.  I recall pulling out my childhood trains some 15-20 years after they were last used.  I set them up for my then young kids and they had a bunch of fun with them.  I decided I’d look to add to the small collection and went to a local train show and was impressed (or rather depressed) about how little the product had changed since I was a kid.  Frankly, it looked kinda cheap and even of lower quality than a lot of my kids‘ “toys.”  Granted I hadn’t come across some of the higher end stuff mentioned above, but ultimately and as a result, I took the trains down (Christmas set up) and they were put away again for a while.  

A few years later I was at a flea market and a local hobby had a train display.  He saw me looking at one of the steamers and then came over and explained about a rather new entry, MTH.  He demonstrated the engine and then had me hold it to look at the detail and even its weight.  I recall him saying that MTH was the new leader in the O gauge train business.  I was hooked and that’s how I got back into the hobby and I now have a whole bunch of MTH engines, passenger cars and rolling stock.   **** that Mike Wolf!  Haha!  But he and his product and technical introductions are the reason I’m full back in and having fun!  I once heard someone say that he and his company were the parents of the hobby’s “rebirth.”  

Before MTH Mike worked for Lionel. Mike opened shop in his garage here where I lived in Columbia MD. He took his designs to china to be manufactured. The rest of the world followed his lead. 

Spent a few hours on the internet trying to understand battery switch (on-off switch) for the blower on a PW Lionel 3470. Then in the middle of the night it came to me.  

Does anyone know what has happened to the MTH's Tinplate tooling and if we will ever see it made again? I imagine Mike has kept all the rights to those...thanks

@CNJ #1601 posted:

I don't understand how all your comments about Lionel post-MTH's arrival on the O-gauge model railroad scene, your TMCC vs. PS-1 vs. DCS ease-of-use comparison, and your assessment of current-day MTH and Atlas apply to this topic thread.

The title of the thread is "What was the state of the hobby before MTH".

Respectfully, the point that I believe Landsteiner is making is a good one - that yes, certainly MTH played a big role in the re-energizing of the hobby in the 90s, but Lionel was also doing some really good things as well - I used TMCC as an example.  And the MTH control system initially was not that great - pushing random sequences of buttons, etc.  None of that is to take away from MTH - I am a fan and a customer - but it has the effect of keeping the discussion balanced.  I think a big factor that has gone unmentioned is that there were a lot of kids from the 1940s and 1950s entering into their prime earning years in the 90s, and the electronics and technology that boomed in the 90s, when it made its way into the train market, met a large group of customers who were understandably tired of post-war reissues, and who had disposable income to take advantage of the new offerings.

Appreciate the interesting discussion.

I was in the Persian Gulf, North Arabian Sea and Red Sea in 1991. Got a letter from my wife when we took on water, food stores and mail off Djibouti.  "Ed (local hobby shop owner in Virginia Beach) says there is a new manufacturer in O Scale and his product is called Mike's Train House. Ed just got some of his engines in the store and believes that they will revolutionize 3-rail O scale model railroading. He doesn't think he'll have anything left when you get back."

I got back five months later. Everything MTH was gone but Ed counseled, "There will be more." How right he was!

My observation was that when MTH came on the scene, it forced Lionel to up their game to compete.  Lionel was content to keep reissuing Postwar reruns and had to invest in new tooling and technology to keep up.  The 90s and early 2000s were an exciting time in the O gauge hobby as every catalog featured new items with new tooling that had never been produced before.  IMO, we are beholden to Mike Wolf for starting it all.  We O gauge guys never had it so good.

I really enjoy the OGR YouTube channel. It is a historical archive of the hobby. Their most recent video (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=05G-qiSmITg&t=232s) has a discussion (starting at 0:20) that is relevant to this thread in which the featured layout owner describes what he was doing prior to MTH’s emergence.

@Jim S posted:

We O gauge guys never had it so good.

You can say that again.  Back to the OT, and as others have said, before MTH, the hobby was chugging along in a state of near status quo.  There were a few improvements (and mistakes) here and there, and TMCC was inevitable thanks to NY's personal interest in developing it, but without MTH, we wouldn't have seen such a rapid expansion and wide variety of new models from ALL the O gauge manufacturers.  I got back into the hobby at the tail end of this new golden age, and I had only initially intended on resuming the trains-around-the-Christmas-Tree family tradition, but the "WOW Factor" of command control, digital sounds, and scale-sized trains drew me in and made a convert out of me.   And as a result, I have made so many friends in the hobby and have had so many enriching experiences, and I owe that all to not only Mike Wolf, but also all those who rose to his challenge to improve their product and compete.

Andy

To put it simply, I think Mike Wolf was a visionary in the O gauge hobby - comparable to Joshua Lionel Cowen.

I have never met Mike but I would like the opportunity someday to tell him that.

MELGAR

"I think Mike Wolf was a visionary in the O gauge hobby - comparable to Joshua Lionel Cowen."

Opinions vary, as one can tell from the previous posts.  Depending on one's experiences and observations at the time, one can come to conclusions that are substantially different from others with different experiences and observations.  Not worth rehashing at this late moment in history, but the assessments at the time were not universal and unsullied adoration .

Had a retail hobby shop starting in 1987 with an outdoor racetrack for dad's and their kids (even a few mom's raced too!) and I flew RC aerobatics. Sometime that first year a fella walked in on a Saturday wanting to be an 'Official Lionel Repair Station'. We struck up a friendship and my dad brought my old Gilbert Flyer set to me which George promptly returned a week later operating quite well. The bug bit hard and we became Lionel Service Station #224 and a wall in the shop quickly began to fill with trains and I built a small multigauge layout in the front window. The service station continues today as 'Uncle Sam's Trains' just north of New Orleans and George is a true professional.

I remembered nothing about Lionel except that I always envied their beautiful F3's. I wanted some. Much to learn and as I researched different distributors to buy trains from, I settled upon a MD business called Mike's Train House. He had the best wholesale prices for Lionel, Williams, and Weaver out there. Rich Foster was a great help and offered much advice on what to stock as my budget was limited as was the space in the store. Also I knew nothing about the market for trains but Rich was terrific. Within that first year I think it was, MTH was starting their own brand and when the Dash 8's and the die cast Challengers were offered, I ordered several of each road name. Upon their arrival they sold out quickly. I should have kept one of the challengers!  As a wholesale customer before MTH officially started, I was grandfathered is as a dealer and was able to buy single items if I wanted without having to order by the case.

My experiences as a retailer with MTH were nothing but 1st rate. Those guys were very good to deal with and I learned a lot back then. Thank you Rich, Andy, Dave and Mike.

Really appreciate all of the great responses. This definitely helps me understand the recent history of the hobby. I was born in 1958 and grew up in the jet/rocket/secret agent/GI Joe age and never even saw a Lionel train. I was at a party held by a colleague about 12 years ago and wandered into his basement and saw a huge postwar Lionel layout. I told my wife I wanted a Polar Express train set for Xmas and got one. The weight of the engine really got my attention. Skip ahead and I bought what is probably the best overall value in the hobby and IMO MTH's greatest contribution, the MTH Switcher. It was early PS2 (still works) and I ran it in conventional at first. Then I discovered DCS. That shifted my passion for the hobby into overdrive. I lost interest for a while which bummed me out. It was during this period that MTH "went out of business" and I can only imagine the discussions this prompted on the forum. Thankfully, MTH revived even if it is in limited capacity. I'm anxious to see what Atlas offers in steam with PS3!

I wasn't into the hobby back then but I had a friend who was purchasing Lionel's "Fallen Flags" sets as they were coming out.  He was complaining that with each set the price would go up and the number of features would go down.  So much so that after about his fifth set he stopped buying.

I'd be interested to know more about the so called frenzy of Lionel trains during the 90's.  Apparently, the prices had escalated on postwar items during that time.  I suppose that would be for a different discussion.

MTH revived prewar style trains.  Before MTH, standard gauge was a cottage industry and prewar style O gauge was whatever had survived.

@Landsteiner posted:

"I think Mike Wolf was a visionary in the O gauge hobby - comparable to Joshua Lionel Cowen."

Opinions vary, as one can tell from the previous posts.  Depending on one's experiences and observations at the time, one can come to conclusions that are substantially different from others with different experiences and observations.  Not worth rehashing at this late moment in history, but the assessments at the time were not universal and unsullied adoration .

I would be curious to hear you expand on this more.  Might be interesting.  

One thing though, and my recollection could be off because it is from many years ago:  in the All Aboard book, I recall reading how Joshua Lionel Cowen suddenly sold out to Roy Cohn.  I recall reading that it was a surprise to people in the company.  In that sense, Mike's announcement in the spring of 2020 took many by surprise including, from what I have been told second hand, people who worked in the Columbia location -- they were just told one day that the building was sold.  So may be there is more to that comparison than we thought?  Maybe not.  But still an interesting conversation.  Thanks to the original poster for getting it going.  

"I would be curious to hear you expand on this more.  Might be interesting.  "

Thanks for the invitation, but this is perhaps not the right thread to review any possible quibbles about Mike Wolf's contributions to the industry over the decades. No one is perfect, obviously.  Some folks who hold him in unmitigated and high esteem might be offended, for one thing.  No need to go there.  We're discussing what the industry was like when he got started and what happened in terms of technology/product over the ensuing decades.  And focusing mainly on the positives.

But your point that Joshua Cowen wasn't exactly a candidate for sainthood is well taken.  He engaged in some questionable business and advertising practices, undermined his son in selling the company out from under him, and more.  His son died rather young, and one wonders whether that paternally caused trauma contributed.   We mainly remember the joy Cowen's products brought to many people, and I think that's for the best in this thread.  The American Flyer fans of the 1950s and later did not necessarily have warm fuzzy feelings about him for sure.   Perhaps we should just let sleeping dogs lie on this subject for other industry leaders.

I was just a wee lad getting ready to graduate high school when mth hit the scene big time.  I had seen the catalogs and advertisements and was lucky enough to go to a york show with my uncle as my sponsor.  Their display was one of their dash 8 or dash 7 diesel pulling 3 cars with lead weights up a helix made of what looked like 0-31 track and back down again, all day.  no derailments, no overheating.  It was like magic.  I wanted a conrail dash 8 for graduation and I ended up with a dash 7 because the 8's were sold out.  (I missed the york display with the mth engines pulling hapless L brand diesels backwards but I heard it was a hoot to see.)  I remember showing off the automated couplers to grown men at the local train club.  they were impressed but didn't want to let me know it.

The overall time was fantastic.  Weaver was making great affordable goo-looking models, I still have about 10 of the 2 bay reading hopper cars.  K-line was making great stuff that I as a kid could afford, but with mth in the mix, K-line really stepped up their game to include semi scale offerings at still reasonable prices, even if they were out of my kid budget.

The bittersweet reality was as mth got better and dcs command came to out, the smaller guys couldn't compete.  K-line hung in for a long time, to be eventually picked apart by Lionel. Williams never really stood a chance since prior to that time their locomotives often did not even come equipped with a horn.  They eventually got soaked up by Bachman.  Weaver was making beautiful steamers at the time and continued to do so for I guess a decade or so, but eventually he scaled back to just rolling stock and when he couldn't find a buyer for the whole enterprise sold things off piece meal and closed up shop.

So prior to mth's independent arrival on the scene, most things were modernized post war offerings.  As an example my first locomotive set bought with my money from shoveling snow, was a Western Maryland Alco set.  the horn is in the unpowered A unit while the powered A unit had dc motors in the truck assemblies, ( very similar to k-line offerings from the same time frame.)  Lots of rs-3 style engine and tradition gg-1's, maybe some SD-40's sprinkled in but not very close to scale, and of course Gp units galore, mostly with stamped steel frame and handrails.

Mth hit it out of the park with dash 8 and dash 7 diesels, and the sound systems were amazing.  In my opinion mth delivered a a much needed shot of adrenaline to the industry.  Without what Mike and his company did the product growth would have continued to be glacial in pace.

I hope this adds some insight to your question.  Please note all memories here are 25 to 30 years old and have not been vetted for accuracy!

A review of the late 1980s and early 1990s model train magazines will give you the most accurate information of the time period. I purchased as many back issues as I could find when I got back into the hobby around 1995 or so.

It wasn't until 1998 when I made my first MTH purchase. That was a Railking PRR K4s, for around $400. That was a lot of money back then, and still is.

@Paul Kallus posted:

A review of the late 1980s and early 1990s model train magazines will give you the most accurate information of the time period. I purchased as many back issues as I could find when I got back into the hobby around 1995 or so.

It wasn't until 1998 when I made my first MTH purchase. That was a Railking PRR K4s, for around $400. That was a lot of money back then, and still is.

Winner Winner! That's a great idea. I actually saved a bunch of Model Railroading (?) magazines from that period when I was attempting to do an HO layout that never got going. I'll take a look.

I got back into buying O gauge trains back when Mike was running a train store in Maryland and had taken over Williams line of prewar reproductions.  I met Mike there a couple of times.  Before I bought my first MTH scale item I already had scale items produced by Williams, Weaver, Intermountain and Pecos River Brass.  Maybe Atlas too.  I remember when Right of Way's articulateds hit the market, and wishing I had the space for one.  Mike did a great deal for this hobby, but the Rennaissance had already started before MTH began making scale items.

I agree that the Renaissance had begun before MTH, with the introduction of "scale" brass steam locos from Williams.  Suddenly there were new prototypes and a fresh breeze through the hobby. I feel these initiatives inspired MTH to take the risk of introducing lnnovations that called for new molds and protoyypes.  I much regret that that boom of innovation we rode appears to have peaked, and l can't continue to wait on my toes to grab the next nifty introduction.

@cbq9911a posted:

MTH revived prewar style trains.  Before MTH, standard gauge was a cottage industry and prewar style O gauge was whatever had survived.

Ain't that the truth! I had little real interest in early tinplate before I saw some great examples at Mike's train store (pre-MTH becoming a full-line O gauge manufacturer) in Maryland. At the time, I lived about two miles away from Mike's Train House--the store--and was working with Greenberg Publishing Company, not far away in Sykesville, MD. I used to visit the shop a couple of times a week, if not more often, mostly to buy some Lionel or Weaver product and to spend a bit of quality time chatting with Mike, Rich, and/or Andy. Was there the day that Mike returned, fired-up, from a meeting with his attorney, and to my mind that still remains as the day Mike determined to go full-bore into the train manufacturing business. The rest is history!

When Mike began producing tinplate on an expanded basis, I started stocking up on Standard Gauge and had a whole lot of those trains for a few years. Finally decided that I did not have the space for a Std. Gauge layout and I decided to go with the MTH O gauge tinplate lines (Tinplate Traditions and later LCT). I have a whole lot of that stuff now, and truly love it. Told my wife I would be willing to sell any trains I have EXCEPT for the tinplate. Fortunately, she agrees!

It is quite interesting to see Mike Wolf compared to Josh since the two were very similar, both for their pluses and minuses. Both were aggressively competitive, knew how to market their stuff, and didn't always play the fair game. In fairness, no one in business is going to be totally ethical, unfortunately.

We're still waiting for Right-of-Way to bring us those die-cast F3's you promised, Bill Benson!

While I have my own grievances for MTH over the years, I won't deny when they hit their stride in the late 90's it was the golden age of the Modern Era. Even with the rise of the other manufacturers like Weaver, Right-of-Way, K-Line, Williams, etc. in the years prior, MTH was really the one to rock the boat at Lionel to improve their quality and lower their prices by the early 00's. Not just for the scale realm and the tinplate realm, but just as important, the introductory realm.

Case and point, my parents in 2000 had the choice of getting me my first O gauge train set. They chose an MTH starter set, and I think they chose well. Considering the MTH set had all the same high-end electronics as their more expensive products, came with a loop of sturdy RealTrax, and all the stock had die cast trucks whereas the average Lionel set only had the lightweight O-27 track, plastic trucks, and only a whistle/horn for around the same price, it was kind of a no brainer what set an average parent would choose.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The neat thing about MTH before the great collapse was the variety of stuff they brought to market that Lionel never produced.  There were a ton of MTH locomotives that to this day have never been produced by Lionel.

Yes. And you should know, John, with your 87 dozen MTH steamers.

@Landsteiner posted:

"I think Mike Wolf was a visionary in the O gauge hobby - comparable to Joshua Lionel Cowen."

Opinions vary, as one can tell from the previous posts.  Depending on one's experiences and observations at the time, one can come to conclusions that are substantially different from others with different experiences and observations.  Not worth rehashing at this late moment in history, but the assessments at the time were not universal and unsullied adoration .

I was quoted without attribution. I was the original poster of the words in quotation marks above.

MELGAR

"Considering the MTH set had all the same high-end electronics as their more expensive products, came with a loop of sturdy RealTrax, and all the stock had die cast trucks whereas the average Lionel set only had the lightweight O-27 track, plastic trucks, and only a whistle/horn for around the same price, it was kind of a no brainer what set an average parent would choose."

With the caveat that the MTH set was probably around $150- $200 more than the average Lionel set, so there's that issue.  Pretty much double the cost for a toy that may or may not interest the recipient to set up beyond the typical Christmas tree display.  So perhaps not so much a no-brainer for folks who were price sensitive.  A typical Thomas set might be available for under $100 at times, compared with the MTH, with better quality and features, but running three times that.