Whether to Weather (or, is everthing in life dirty & worn?)

This is one of my favorite topics. My layout contains every accessory found in the 1957 Lionel catalog, as well as my favorites from other periods. My goal is to capture the fantasy and romance that Lionel tried to promote in its catalogs, the showroom layouts, and in such publications as Model Railroading. When I scratchbuild a structure or place scenery around the track and accessories, the intent is to provide a setting that presents the Lionel postwar products at their best. As in the examples you present, I never weather or create permanent modifications of any Lionel product. But I often walk right up to the line and try to be as clever as possible.  Here are some examples:

As I've decided on a prototype to model, and the era I wish to model, I've given the "weathering" question much thought.

The brick buildings on my layout are less weathered than the wood buildings. The wood was replaced with brick after a fire, so the wooden buildings that remain are older, while the brick buildings are newer.

Again, considering the era and location my layout is set in, trackside scenery is more weathered than scenery further away from the tracks due to steam engine "waste" for lack of a better term. My track is a weathered as it's older, although I make exceptions regarding poor track, because I want my trains to run reliably. Consider tree's in the real world as opposed to model railroad trees. In the real world trees are bent, and all sorts of odd shapes. Modelling that looks sloppy on a layout, so I try to keep all my trees going straight up.

To expand on the previous thoughts, I try to determine how things would look considering the era. How tall would the trees be close to the mainline 20 years after the track was laid in the envirionment I'm modelling? Same consideration concerning weeds, lineside structures, and ballast.

Some items on a layout should look new, or well maintained, while others shouldn't. A successful business will keep it's buildings and grounds nice, while another business may not. Same with residential areas. Pre and postwar toy train items are the exception, in my opinion. I like to see them clean and unweathered. They're history, just a different history than what I model, and should be treated with respect.

My main complaint about any layout, especially those featured in the magazines, is modern plastic built-up buildings that aren't painted or weathered. They look odd among the great rock faces and other scenery on the layout.

My wife hates weathering. So she came up with the idea of a large historic area. Even has the guys out painting what was weathered.

The local inspection folks from city hall are at another building with the police.

Looks like Gestapo tactics to me.

Frank, I’ve admired your work for some time now although

 I haven’t posted many Atta-boys as I should have, you do some nice work.

Basically, weathering is all or nothing only in true “O” scale.

You’re either all in or all out. Nothing in between.

As for compressed items, O27, non- true “O” items, I say they should remain as they were intended to be, shiny toys. Not worth the time and effort to make real as they are lacking scale or details.

You have the potential or what it takes to launch your modeling into the next level.

Don’t be bashful.

I can’t do your layout details but…I do most cars and diesels for $47.00 flat rate plus return shipping.

Many OGR fans / customers have been well satisfied and happy with my weathering work.

Two hrs. labor is all I ask per item to satisfy my art cravings and make your dreams come true.

So the decision is yours.

Steve

SIRT

“Ride the Rapid”

A matter of personal taste.

Life isn't bright, shiny and glossy.  It's dark, dingy, dirty and full of despair.

Life is pain.  Anyone who says differently is selling something.

Lots of great discussions here guys. 

I have seen allot of great work, visited Norm's layout. Weathered many a cars, track, and buildings....

I can only say it takes allot of dedication, and you have to look at the whole layout in general. What are you trying to achieve? 

I sure like tinplate layouts - they sure bring back memories of a younger day....

But I have in my mind what I wanted to model and what the layout will visually impress on visitors... I say stick to your guns and enjoy what you do... 

Trains are fun.

on the other hand.......

poorly weathered stuff is waaay worse than new, clean & shiny   and I've done my share of it

Do I want my steam engines to look like this???? YES, ABSOLUTELY! Like you Frank, I haven't had the guts to try it.

Beyond the individual decision to weather or not (sorry for that play) the question is how do they come up with their amazing experimental ideas?  I wonder if the experts experiment on junkers first to see if a particular technique works.  Once one achieves success, duplicating techniques is no longer so mysterious?  In my case, some facets of scenery, especially colors are daunting for me, even after reading countless detailed "how to do it" advice threads.  Experimenting on some scrap is what I will try on scenery.  Weathering locos, well maybe down the road.  

I am happy doing what the customer wants. Everything looks good to me.

Alan Graziano

Yes, everything in life is a bit worn and weathered.  

as said, it is a personal decision, the shiny-and-new look has appeal.

Also, while weathering is fun, it is very easy to go too far not just a little rust and dirt, but alot of both.  Most of the world is just slightly dirty, slightly faded, and slightly rusted.  THAT is rather time consuming to do and requires more attention to detail and time than one would think.

The key to realistic layouts like mine, Norms, Dave’s, Indy Dons, Patrick’s, Neal’s, Christopher’s and others is the fact that we appear to be driven and inspired on scenes we grew up with or observed through the years. The artistic talent part is supported by this factor in order to achieve our goals.

There is an era and theme in mind with lots of pre-planning thought involved.

Some of us want to capture and preserve the early days along with a little historical value thrown into the mix.

Natural ability –

I’ve had this painting thing all my life. I painted many of my old toys and Lionel trains from the age of 5 or 6 to look like what was around town. Drove my Dad nuts using his house paint in the basement. If my store bought toy construction trucks were anything other than yellow, I painted them yellow and so on.

Never seen an orange stock car (L) so it had to be brown back then.

I don’t seek any how to media items when it comes to this hobby either. I just check real historical RR photos available as a reference for accuracy.

Your best advice is to look around and copy real life. Plan ahead and proceed without hesitation. You will be surprised at the transformation taking place in a matter of minutes!

S.

Growing up near 3 major railroad lines, and having a siding by our farm, had pleasure of walking up to, get on top, and into many different cars, even several cabooses. What I noticed, especially when new or newly painted cars was not graffiti then, but natures weathering a lot. Fading and bleaching of colors, besides the road dust. Back then, cars were in very good shape and kept so. The only heavy worn cars were gondolas and coal cars, dirty and dinged up. Cattle and pig cars were very clean from what I remember and washed down and new straw always at the loading pens which were 4 miles away, and watched them loading. Road dust, and diesel fumes colored the top of the engines and sides. The ends of cars showed less fading from sun then did the sides. In the late 70s upward, started noticing more graffitti and rust, dirt on boxcars.

Working for several Chemical Plants in late 60s to recent retirement, I can sat that every company Hopper car, and tank car were kept clean, graffitti painted over. Hopper cars were washed inside and outside. Tank cars were never allowed to leave the plant with overflow, or spillage showing by loading hatch. This was wiped and washed off. Probable the tank cars I saw with the most rust, ageing, and splotching, discoloring, were the ammonia tank cars, and flaking of paint on the Nitrogen cars. We had an inplant usage only (several actually) old 8000 tank cars, which were filled with Styrene bottoms and spillage which were when filled, sent to the Boiler House to be used as fuel in the boilers. They had a lot of spillage, and rust on them. I remember seeing some built dates as 1932 on them.

Probable growing up the boxcars and Hopper cars that were filled at the grain silo (Co-ops) were the dirtiest to leave, usually covered with grain dust.

Steam Locomotives I remember seeing at the turntable and roundhouse on 1-14 edge of town. Fireboxes were rusty, also outside of the boilers showed lotsa whitish from steam leaks and rust. Tenders had rust lines and whitish from overflow of water, all the couples on anything,everything 50s, 60s upward were always rusty colored.

Weathering, as in the natural process of deterioration or natural accumulation of soot and grime or like elements, is fine......but not every square inch of every surface needs to be plastered with grease, grime, and trash. I was born and raised in northeastern PA in the heart of the anthracite mining region.  People took considerable pride in insuring their homes, yards and businesses were clean and well maintained.....if properties looked like some of those portrayed on layouts the neighbors pitched in and rectified the situation. People don't like living in filth, business districts don't prosper in derelict neighborhoods, and industries have long recognized that organized and well maintained properties have less accidents and prosper.    

Tried to be clever ? You ARE CLEVER, man! I had a hard time deciding which of your photos to repeat here in my reply but could not because I found each one to be marvelous in what you have done! So, I repeated the first one, to keep it simple.

You have woven an interesting and playful landscape, augmented with realistic touches and enrichment everywhere you have shown, including your expanded walkways and platforms, and fencing, roadside barriers, masonry, and expanses of soil, esp.

Thank you, Avanti/Pete for your interesting contribution to our conversation. I am sure some of our fellow-modelers have gotten some ideas from your remarkable examples.

FrankM.

.... Everyone here has their opinion on this topic, which comes up often, and always ends in an argument between someone.

The opinions are what I am asking for. Arguments are for some other thread - not my style. We are at-play, here, even simply typing away at a topic we all have in-common - these wonderful toys and models.

When I was a boy, I played with my toys (1/43 cars and trucks, and Matchbox) inside the house. I also played with my cars-n-trucks outside with my friends, in the dirt and sand-piles in and around the many foundations of new homes being built (post-war) in our neighborhood. It was waaaaaaay more fun playing with my friends.

So, I am here, now, at-play with folks I perceive to be friends or, at least, pleasant acquaintances. Good friends listen to each others opinions. I'm listening.

FrankM

Originally Posted by Laidoffsick:

.... Everyone here has their opinion on this topic, which comes up often, and always ends in an argument between someone.

The opinions are what I am asking for. Arguments are for some other thread - not my style. We are at-play, here, even simply typing away at a topic we all have in-common - these wonderful toys and models.

 

When I was a boy, I played with my toys (1/43 cars and trucks, and Matchbox) inside the house. I also played with my cars-n-trucks outside with my friends, in the dirt and sand-piles in and around the many foundations of new homes being built (post-war) in our neighborhood. It was waaaaaaay more fun playing with my friends.

 

So, I am here, now, at-play with folks I perceive to be friends or, at least, pleasant acquaintances. God friends listen to each others opinions. I'm listening.

FrankM

Excellent post. Opinions are just that as perceived by individuals. Expressing different views, does not make those views, arguments.  Its only when your against opinions or views by others, and then lash out at the person, rather then the view, that they become argumentive. Again, great post.

Interesting to read, Lee. Your perspective made me think of bridges. A couple on my layout that I had custom-made by Stainless Unlimited have been left shiny and new - though not like anything in the real world, I am sure - because my wife got such a kick out of them when they arrived. One in particular I situated alongside two Lionel toy bridges, left as they were as toy elements, and just forward on the layout of a green AF bridge, all just fr a little historical statement, of sorts. But I have been tempted....

Then, came a client's layout. He wanted weathered bridges. I was careful not to go too far, and I did not, I trust.

 I used a girder-bridge I saw personally while driving along Rt.11 on the way from Scranton, PA to Cortland, NY. It was real-life but was used as a guide, not a mandate (seen below.)

...My weathering of a bridge for my client (stone supports were not yet weathered)..

...bridge parallel to Rt. 11...

FrankM

SIRT? Norm? Does everything need weathered to some extent?

I hope I answered the original question.

Unfortunately many of these threads stray off coarse giving you everything but what you asked for in the first place.

It's all good, as far as I am concerned. You addressed my inquiry with a valuable perspective (I'm still thinking about all that you said.) And "straying off course.." is fine with me, too. It's the conversation that matters to me. "Straying" can be good, even refreshing. Everybody's perspective counts in my book, when I post a thread.

FrankM

OK Frank, here's my opinion. To me it really comes down to 2 things, especially in this hobby of O Gauge Trains.

1. Are you a toy train guy with 027, MPC, post war equipment, OR are you a scale sized "Model Railroader"? (Let's just forgot about the center rail... another argument)

2. If you weather the trains, then you should weather the buildings and vice versa. Sometimes that could be knocking the shine off with a simple spray of flat finish. Every yard, town, RR, has their "new" building, locomotive, freight car... etc etc but after that, everything is exposed to the elements and has some form of natural weathering.

I've been in N scale, and HO scale through the years, and I got back into O about 10 years ago when the "scale" stuff was really taking off. I'm a model railroader, so I like my stuff to look real. Fixed pilots, Kadee couplers, and weathering. O gauge/scale is much easier to work on than HO, it now has a ton of detail, there's more and more to choose from every year, and I can afford it now that I'm older... well kinda.   

Rails need to be painted, ballast needs to be dirty, your train shouldn't have a glossy finish (unless its a passenger train), your buildings should have a little dirt showing, the engines should look like they have thousands of miles on them, but that's my opinion as a model railroader.

Like I said earlier though:

If they are poorly weathered, because you don't know how to do it, or don't want to pay someone to do it for you, practice on some junkers, or just leave everything clean. Badly weathered stuff if worse than clean, shiny stuff.   

LOF summarized it well.

Frank will have to find the happy medium that will appeal to him if he heads for real.

Remember, under weathered can be also as bad as over weathered.

Avoid the decorating clutter, sometimes less is more.

Here's a scene crafted as part of a rural community. It is an old man's firewood business, which has been around for years. I hesitated weathering the buildings further because I felt he had pride in his business and would have kept it nice - as best he could; the firewood shelter is, however, crafted as more well-used than the house to which it is attached.

The old dependable, much-used, always-out-in-the-weather truck has, well, been around too long, in too much weather?

FrankM

I'm in the camp of having everything weathered to some degree.  It's easy to overdo it and end up with a railroad that looks like the mid-1930's depression.  I model the early 1950's so most weathering is not too heavy.

Here's a scene along a semi-rural siding.  The freight cars, track and buildings are all weathered.  The ties here have sunk into the ground so there is just a hint of the original ballast remaining.

The West Valley Farm and Fuel Supply building is the MTH granary with a black wash on the stone, weathered roof and scratchbuilt loading dock.

The Acme Metal Drum Corp is an original 1950's American Flyer Oil Drum Loader with additional scale drums on the dock, weathered and set into the scenery.  It still operates.

Not everything. Even on a "dirty" layout, something can get away with being shiny. And should be able too support it, unless an extremely aged, or neglected look, is the goal..

A bright day after some good hard rain, often leaves the dirtiest world, clean shiny looking. For at least a few minutes anyhow. That's what I see looking at work like Moonson's.

Avanti "takes on more grunge" in the landscape. And everything else there non-Lionel, is detailed, weathered with enough skill, in texture, and good color choices, that it blends the un-weathered Lionel portions right in. But the contrasts existing are still enough to make the structures "pop" just slightly. Like these structures are maintained at a slightly higher level than anything else around them. And I really like that thought.

I love the "natural weathering" of old scratched tin, and dirty PW.

I try not to disturb any dust dust on ruddy reds in particular .

 Give me a dirty and naturally junky work train over a shiny one any day. But one shiny new car (like a tmcc crane car lol) is cool I guess.

Bob, Each of those scenes was very enjoyable to look at. I have singled-out this one because of the clever and creative way you  have made the mechanical' s base look like real cement that's been around for quite a while. This was nice to learn from.

FrankM.

Everything was new at some point. I've seen new CSX diesels that shined like something from the Williams shiny era. Freshly painted homes often look new. So, I don't do much weathering. In my little world all of the trains look new, because at one time they were new.

However if realism is the goal then we have to recognize that everything isn't new at the same time. In fact there was probably never a time when everything modeled on a layout was all new at the same time.

I am in awe of the work that Frank, Steve, Norm C. and others do. Their layouts/trains  are as much works of art as they are a hobby. But, I am not striving for the grimy realistic look, nor do I have the artistic talent to model it. So, most stuff on my layout looks new. I do paint the rails and I paint plasticville buildings so they look more realistic, but all of my trains are new and clean looking.

As a kid I had a 4 X 8' table with 2 loops one mountain and a few plasticville buildings. My imagination filled in the rest. As I build my layout I sometimes wonder if I am trying to be too detailed to the point where there will be little left for my imagination to fill in.

It comes down to deciding what you want from your layout. In most cases if you change your mind you can repaint or sell what you are not happy with and start again.

The great thing about the forum and the magazines is that they showcase others expertise and provide lots of ideas and thoughtful opinions.

That was interesting to read, Adriatic. Wow. Thank you. I am going to remember your description and apply it in my mind as I tour my layout looking for spots to refine or re-express.

Here is a scene that has remained as it was when I first crafted it into place in Moon Township, my layout, several years ago. I'm not sure it reminded me of places I experienced as a youth, as SIRT made reference to as the kind of places that inspire his creative expressions, but this vignette simply poured out of my imagination in one swoosh of creativity, albeit  over several days of work-play. I think it has a "feel," though, of places I have been and felt.

In this vignette, I have allowed myself the wide spread in car vintages because there is an "Antique & Classic Car Show" local street-fair just across the RR-trax from here, so these folks are visiting the market for a little snack before or after their visit there.

FrankM, aka Moon's son, of Moon Township.

I was thinking about it after I wrote about it too. Its "the clean air look"...How's that!

Frank, I'm glad you like my efforts. My only real goal with weathering is to make everything look natural in its environment.

Bob - nice job on the oil drum loader.

Basically, weathering is all or nothing only in true “O” scale.

You’re either all in or all out. Nothing in between.

Well, not to sure of the above.  I think some things look great weathered and other things look good brand spanking new.  It's an evolutionary process...especially if you have a large layout or a lot of cars.

Take a look at these nice pics from the SMS Railroad.  Those guys better get out there with their chalk and start weathering that equipment.

Ron

I can see that and feel that. I think we all can, which is why we cheer so heartily when we see your success at "keeping it real," which you have stated better as, "natural in its environment." I'm going to remember that. You put that well. It's fun seeing your skill, and it is inspirational.

After only 2 years in the hobby the 'new' or 'shiny' hasn't worn off for me yet.  But at the same time unless it is in the showroom, 'new' to me also indicates 'not used.'  By that I mean it doesn't see regular service, doesn't live in its environment.  And that, to me, makes the item unrealistic.

So, shortly after buyiing this Hudson, I tried my hand at grime. Somewhat visible in the photo, the trucks an sides of the locomotive and tender show, to me, a days hard work.  Applied with an airbrush this was a permament choice (and I was just then learning to use an airbrush for the first time) so I was taking a chance with an expensive purchase.  

When it turned out well (my opinion) I was pleased with both the result, and the fact that I took the chance. Now, everytime it passes by on our single loop of track in the kitchen, I look up at it and admire the 'work' that it is doing.

Just my thoughts.