@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:
I would be very eager to see if Lionel could show us how they priced these out
Come on now. Are you serious? Maybe you should be asking how much money MTH made off this deal.
And the 2021 NOBEL PRIZE for ECONOMICS goes to:
The OGR Forum!
Good fun, though.
A fool and his money are soon parted. Plenty of used stuff out there.
Atlas announced products from the MTH tooling were new orders they made. They didn’t take over MTH’s existing backlog. I do think it was smart of Atlas to make 44 Tonners at the same time the factory was making MTH’s last run of 44 Tonners.
The whole point of Atlas moving into MTH’s factory was for Atlas to significantly increase their O production capability. I think you will see lots of former Mth tooling announced by Atlas in the not too distant future. They bought a lot of tooling and they need to make product to earn out on that investment. I expect Atlas to also move their existing tooling for O product into that same facility.
Personally, I am super excited about the product, both planned and available, from all three manufacturers. It’s a terrific time to be in the hobby.
@CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:A fool and his money are soon parted. Plenty of used stuff out there.
Indeed. I tend to get most of my things on the used market now, large supply and great prices
Bryce, without doing any research, I thought prices looked a lot higher that MTH had priced them at. Thank you for doing the research to show it to be true. Time will tell how things go with their future pricing, but there is nothing in that catalog that I am going to buy.
I think at the moment the things I would really like from this catalog are the Long Island C-Liners and the UP DD35A's. I could even see myself pre-ordering these items too. I agree that many of the items in this catalog are not just more costly; certain pieces are kind of like "wow, what were they thinking?" I thought the cylindrical hoppers and the flat cars with fire trucks were pretty crazy with how much they cost. Thank goodness for hobby shops that lower the prices a bit.
As several others have stated, these whopping new prices will make the secondary market even hotter than it already is.
Bargains are still to be found there, although these big price increases on new Lionel may also give secondary market sellers some room to up their prices as well.
GRJ had it right. Because they can. Or at least they think they can. So you think you're the only game in town and you price it high. Much easier for a retailer to strikethru a $149 MSRP and sell something for $99 than sell it at list. And don't forget, Lionel is owned by Guggenheim Partners, so I suspect Lionel management is more interested in short term profits than the long-term.
The high prices will simply encourage the competition. I am not looking to buy (I'm in sell mode), but how quickly did Menards sell out their first engine? Lionel is creating opportunities for new competitors. Just as they did in the 90's with their high priced rehashes of postwar tooling. My friends, we are in for interesting times.
Gerry
@gmorlitz posted:GRJ had it right. Because they can. Or at least they think they can. So you think you're the only game in town and you price it high. Much easier for a retailer to strikethru a $149 MSRP and sell something for $99 than sell it at list. And don't forget, Lionel is owned by Guggenheim Partners, so I suspect Lionel management is more interested in short term profits than the long-term.
The high prices will simply encourage the competition. I am not looking to buy (I'm in sell mode), but how quickly did Menards sell out their first engine? Lionel is creating opportunities for new competitors. Just as they did in the 90's with their high priced rehashes of postwar tooling. My friends, we are in for interesting times.
Gerry
Menards also only made 200 locomotives sold only online to apparently act as more as a operational Beta test. They seemed to feel that the FP7's would be scarfed up by (most likely forumites) eager to see what's what. Guess they were right. We'll see if Menards acts on some of the reported issues the locomotive and remote has.
200 units will not cover development costs.
I have no idea what Menards production numbers normally are, but there's no guarantee a regular production run would sell out in 3 hours when available in stores.
Unless of course, forumites storm Menards to clear the shelves...
Rusty
I think the most reasonably priced item is the consolidation considering it has whistle steam. The C-liners are also priced somewhat reasonably considering the dealer discount. Everything else is bonkers.
I was so excited to see the Strasburg 90 and matching cars. Then I saw the price and thought it must be a misprint. Yikes! Why is this one engine so expensive? I know inflation is getting worse. I was in the grocery store yesterday and steak has doubled in price like overnight it seems. But between the engine and all the cars, that's a huge chunk of change? I will have to sell some stuff before I can buy this set! is it because they know lots of people want this particular engine?
@Mark Boyce posted:Bryce, without doing any research, I thought prices looked a lot higher that MTH had priced them at. Thank you for doing the research to show it to be true. Time will tell how things go with their future pricing, but there is nothing in that catalog that I am going to buy.
You are very welcome Mark!
@Sean's Train Depot posted:I was so excited to see the Strasburg 90 and matching cars. Then I saw the price and thought it must be a misprint. Yikes! Why is this one engine so expensive? I know inflation is getting worse. I was in the grocery store yesterday and steak has doubled in price like overnight it seems. But between the engine and all the cars, that's a huge chunk of change? I will have to sell some stuff before I can buy this set! is it because they know lots of people want this particular engine?
I can answer on the cost of the engine: Brass-hybrid, all new construction (no prior tooling), all new sounds, etc. I have no qualms with the pricing of the 2-10-0
The former MTH 64' woodsides? That is a different story.
If MTH still owned the cars: MTH 64' Woodside 3-Car Set Price (2020 Vol 1): $289.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021: $304.39 (~$101.46 per car)
Lionel Prices: Lionel 64' Woodside 2-Car Set Price: $399.99 (~$199.99 per car)
That's ~$100 difference between MTH and Lionel, double the price for something in an orange and blue box
Bryce
@jini5 posted:Now thats what I call inflation! I hope that MTH keeps the tooling for the best railking engine ever made. Of course I am talking about the RS-1. Now if someone would do a custom run in Penn Central that would be awesome. Lionel......please stay away from the RS-1!
Saw on Marios Trains site MTH just added the Railking RS 1 to their new preorder list so they may be keeping it. I believe it was $339?.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:
The former MTH 64' woodsides? That is a different story.
If MTH still owned the cars: MTH 64' Woodside 3-Car Set Price (2020 Vol 1): $289.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021: $304.39 (~$101.46 per car)
Lionel Prices: Lionel 64' Woodside 2-Car Set Price: $399.99 (~$199.99 per car)
That's ~$100 difference between MTH and Lionel, double the price for something in an orange and blue box
Bryce
That's a real shame. I am quite fond of these cars and they sell ( I said sell) for more than MSRP on ebay. I thought for sure these would never be produced again. I missed out on the last Strasburg set that MTH produced and they are hard to find. Kinda choking on the Lionel prices. 
Mike Wolf is a shrewd negotiator. Maybe he got Lionel to pay him close to the cost of new tooling for these, which is probably 100% more than the cost of new tooling when these cars were first made? Now Lionel must amortize the cost of the "new" tooling they've acquired, and they have the overhead of running a full line, full service train company. I'd guess they have at least 10 times as many employees as the "new" MTH. The other thing that's happening is that the discount (margin) dealers are allowed is changing. Most dealers couldn't offer more than 10% off MTH stuff due to the narrow margins. Charles Ro is selling passenger cars for 25%+ off MSRP from Lionel, so the margins are quite different. Lots of factors other than "greed" at play here I'd guess.
The price on the Strasburg cars from Ro are about $144 each, so a 40% increase from MTH's price using tooling that may have already been amortized. Is anyone shocked that costs of materials, labor and shipping might be up that much for delivery in 2022? Priced lumber, plastic pellets or other stuff lately?
@romiller49 posted:Come on now. Are you serious? Maybe you should be asking how much money MTH made off this deal.
I never worry or think about other people’s money. I keep a careful watch my own money. I feel I owe nothing to those organizations that I buy from other than a prompt payment for their goods or services they provide.
@Landsteiner posted:The price on the Strasburg cars from Ro are about $144 each, so a 40% increase from MTH's price using tooling that may have already been amortized. Is anyone shocked that costs of materials, labor and shipping might be up that much for delivery in 2022? Priced lumber, plastic pellets or other stuff lately?
You are comparing Lionel discounted product to MTH MSRP. You could purchase those cars from MTH dealers for around $89 at the time (some even cheaper). That’s a 62% markup at the high end (more if you consider the higher markdown dealers), not 40%. Lionels mth buildings and accessories are marked up 100%. Yes, lumber, and other products are up, but some other commodities are very stable in price. In the model train world, which is what we should be looking at, as Bryce showed, there is lots of price stability relative to the implied inflation rate as seen from other manufacturers taking pre orders now for late 2021/2022 delivery. Not all trains being pre-ordered now for delivery later this year and in 2022 are being marked up anywhere close to Lionel margins. In fact, I just ordered an Rs-3 diesel from Trainworld slated for late 2021/2022 delivery for just a few dollars more than the MTH 2019 catalog price. I also ordered a premier hopper from Charlie Nassau that is just a little more than the similar 2020 catalog offering and an MTH building that should be delivered by October for the same price as the prior catalog. We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I and many others looking at these facts are “shocked” by the steep increases in pricing by Lionel for these reasons. You aren’t. To each his own. I will say this though, I have no doubt that Lionel has a good marketing research team or has hired top notch industry consultants and know full well what, if any, price inelasticity there is in this market. Using me as an example, if Lionel were to come out with a subway train in a model type that I don’t already have, I would buy it in a heartbeat, despite any price markups. I’m sure many other die hard hobbyists are the same with their favored lines. I surmise lionel has a good read on that and what prices this unique hobby will bear.
Prices in general have jumped like nothing I’ve seen since the seventies. Do you still have your “WIN” (Whim Inflation Now) pin from the Ford Administration days?
Inflation has been tame for a long time. The pandemic has screwed it up just as it has so many other aspects of life. We are in a world war, and wars do things like that. Hopefully life will return to normal (at least a stable new normal) before too long. Inflation-wise, the Federal Reserve Board seems to think so.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Indeed. I tend to get most of my things on the used market now, large supply and great prices
I agree but you and I won’t be the only ones looking at used stuff. So my advice to everyone here is if you see a good deal on the Internet or at a train show/train store don’t hesitate and get it.
MTH was selling that nice stuff too cheap then. Mike’s retirement and downsizing/eventual dissolution of the company would have been less attractive if MTH could have realized more profits over the years. Maybe MTH fans should have let them raise prices a bit to reflect market conditions and economic realities.
The market will either support new prices and products from Lionel, or it won't. I've always been particular on what I purchase so nothing has changed in my mind.
This is pretty one-sided against Lionel. To get a more complete picture, we would need to know what MTH's contract with their factory and suppliers was. Perhaps they had locked-in certain costs and rates that Lionel had to renegotiate when they purchased the tooling. MTH also may have made a profit on these items, but that amount was not the maximum amount possible, with reasonings for that pricing structure known only internally.
@biscuitag97 posted:I think the most reasonably priced item is the consolidation considering it has whistle steam. The C-liners are also priced somewhat reasonably considering the dealer discount. Everything else is bonkers.
C liners did seem reasonable, and I don’t think the sd45s went up either.
@Mike in NC posted:The market will either support new prices and products from Lionel, or it won't. I've always been particular on what I purchase so nothing has changed in my mind.
Absolutely! I feel the same way
@Csxcellent posted:C liners did seem reasonable, and I don’t think the sd45s went up either.
Agree on the Hustle Muscles, but that price for a PRR C-Liner with no available B unit, the wrong trucks, AND the wrong paint?
Pass.
Mind you I just took delivery of the PRR single stripe Baldwin Sharks - which are fantastic looking and were MUCH more reasonably priced with A-A sets having four motors. I’m REALLY glad I got those now.
I fully realize that there are new folks in this hobby and they may not have knowledge that someone who has been around longer would have, but sometimes it seems that the collective OGR forum forgets very quickly what has happened in the past. This is not the first time that products once made by other companies experience significant price increases once brought under the Lionel umbrella. IC Controls anyone?
When I first heard that there would be products in the Lionel 2021 volume II catalog from former MTH tooling I fully expected that the price would be much higher than when available from MTH. No surprise there.
Those 64' wood coaches are insanely overpriced
@Hudson J1e posted:I agree but you and I won’t be the only ones looking at used stuff. So my advice to everyone here is if you see a good deal on the Internet or at a train show/train store don’t hesitate and get it.
I'll keep my fingers crossed that no one else finds those good deals that I have been searching high and low for many years
@Mike in NC posted:The market will either support new prices and products from Lionel, or it won't. I've always been particular on what I purchase so nothing has changed in my mind.
Very true. I did like Lionel's "Thistle Shop Flower Shop" but for $139.99, I will be voting with my wallet and passing on it
@Brian DeFazio posted:Those 64' wood coaches are insanely overpriced
c'est la vie 
Bryce
When I saw the msrp for #90, the only item I'm going to buy, I wasn't surprised, especially considering it is all-new tooling. Given the pricing of other top-of-the-line Lionel steamers, it doesn't seem out-of-line to me. I had mentally prepared for a price between $1500 and $2000 in the event #90 would ever be produced. The pricing of other items, such as the woodsided passenger cars, is a bit tall and I'm very glad I found them used a few years ago.
Does pricing really matter? Its all disposable income/stimulus money anyway. You guys will find a way to pay for it if you really want it. Lionel knows this.
@jini5 posted:Does pricing really matter? Its all disposable income/stimulus money anyway. You guys will find a way to pay for it if you really want it. Lionel knows this.
Pricing matters. At some point, most consumers won't buy if it isn't priced right. I'd love to have a set of the new B&M woodsided passenger cars, but not at $200.00 per car or even $180.00 per car.
Pricing matters to me. For a reasonable price, I'd have jumped on the Strasburg #90, but not for $1700 street price! I just bought the Nicholas Smith Strasburg 10-wheeler for $699.99 a few months ago, suddenly a similar sized locomotive with no more features is going to cost two and half times that??? If they were looking for my Threshold of Pain, they found it!
Lionel price hikes reflect combination of lack of competition and inflation. The latter is likely just beginning and will cause financial pain far beyond model train market. Prices on many goods are already up sharply. That said many of us already have lots of trains to enjoy!
We had dinner with a train friend couple last night.
In the MTH discussion that took place it occurred to me that with Lionel marking up MTH items 100%, the 80% of the tooling Mike still owns has intrinsically risen 100% in value since Friday. That is a game changer for MTH. Mike can now get more for his tooling now than before the Lionel catalog was released. And if Lionel sells a lot of MTH product at the new higher prices, Lionel and the other importers will want more MTH product. Could create a bidding war.
MTH always had to sell a superior product (according to MTH fans) at a lower price than the competition. Seems like they could have at least matched or closed in on their competitors’ pricing and been successful just on the basis that everything they offered was a better product. Anyone figure it out?
The prices that Lionel (Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.) expects to get for their acquired MTH models, as well as the announced brass hybred Strasburg (nee-Great Western) 2-10-0, I expect Menards will really clean house now. Their new Santa Fe "FP7" proves anyone can now afford to board the O gauge train to happiness without having to take out a loan from their bank or credit union.
The orange and blue box manufacturer is on the Fast Track of removing the fun in the onetime Model Railroader magazine slogan, "Model Railroading is Fun". At Lionel it's almost becoming a thing of the past. But hey, it's everyone's personal decision and pocketbook to decide if they can afford or want to pay unrealistic highjack prices for O gauge trains. No finger pointing from the Peanut Galley guys. Do it your way!
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Because they can!
I think there are two ways to look at this:
1. Prices too high - don't buy - prices come down
2. Prices too high - don't buy - Lionel drops the line
John
@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:The prices that Lionel (Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.) expects to get for their acquired MTH models, as well as the announced brass hybred Strasburg (nee-Great Western) 2-10-0, I expect Mercers will really clean house now. Their new Santa Fe "FP7" proves anyone can now afford to board the O gauge train to happiness without having to take out a loan from their bank or credit union.
The orange and blue box manufacturer is on the Fast Track of removing the fun in the onetime Model Railroader magazine slogan, "Model Railroading is Fun". At Lionel it's almost becoming a thing of the past. But hey, it's everyone's personal decision and pocketbook to decide if they can afford or want to pay unrealistic highjack prices for O gauge trains. No finger pointing from the Peanut Galley guys. Do it your way!
Really, now...
There is no comparison between the full-featured brass/hybrid 2-10-0 and Menards (not Mercers) comparatively unsophisticated (potentially) mass-produced plastic FP7.
Rusty
