The new Lionel Barn is $149.99, The Menards is $89.99. Now with that said Lionels is molded plastic, Menards is some type of compressed paper/hardboard.  Not taking sides but just pointing out the differences. Can Lionels fade due to sunlight or other light possible, can Menards, I have not heard of it happening but would not count it out.

The bottom line is, are you willing to pay almost 60 % more for the one from Lionel ( using MSRP not counting Menards 11% coupon as most of us can't really use them or discount from some of the dealers on Lionel products )

Personally, I like Menards barn better as it has more detail added to it, but will it last as long as Lionels, who knows, and at my age, it really doesn't matter to me, as I figure it will last what I have left on this earth.

Bottom line you have to decide which is the best for you and if your willing to pay Lionels higher prices.  Once I heard Lionel bought the molds I said to myself, yeah and they will come close to doubling the price to recover their investment meant and to get the profit margin they need to get it to the consumers via the distribution system they use seeing they have put a middle man between them and the hobby shop ( other than about the top-selling 10 I believe it is )

@MrMuffin'sTrains posted:

The whole point of Atlas moving into MTH’s factory was for Atlas to significantly increase their O production capability. I think you will see lots of former Mth tooling announced by Atlas in the not too distant future. They bought a lot of tooling and they need to make product to earn out on that investment. I expect Atlas to also move their existing tooling for O product into that same facility.

I certainly hope that with the MTH tooling, Atlas doesn't change it to make it a PITA to work on like many of the existing Atlas products!  I always cringe when an Atlas locomotive comes in for repair!

The prices of model trains will be the least of our worries if inflation keeps rising!  Modern monetary theorists think they can repeal law of supply and demand.  You don't have to be a Nobel prize winner in economics to be skeptical!

As I've said a few times, in other threads regarding pricing, if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Moaning and groaning about prices,  will not lower the price.  You have to vote with your money.  That's about the only thing some of these corps/owners  hear and understand.  For me, there might be one or two items I pre-order but that's it. While prices are high, I want the items bad enough to purchase.  In reality, based on past experience with Lionel, one item will most likely be cancelled because minimum orders won't be met.

Steve

Rusty: I knew I'd get some feedback on my post.  I know the difference between Lionel and Menards.  As you see to the left, I made the change.  Call it Fat Finget Attack or I didn't eat my Wheaties today?  I'm aware that you have the low income working class and white shirt manager types, thus with Menards now in the locomotive business, there are products for both parties now.  Lionel isn't going anywhere.  They are an institution who will outlive many of the O Gauge Railroading members and will continue to please both young and old for generations to come.

Item:  I believe Lionel rates a spot on CNN's 100 Year Club.

RideTheRails:  You get today's Golden Spike award.  No one is forced to purchase anything they think is priced too high.  It is what it is!

Joe

@RideTheRails posted:

As I've said a few times, in other threads regarding pricing, if you don't like the price, don't buy it. Moaning and groaning about prices,  will not lower the price.  You have to vote with your money.  That's about the only thing some of these corps/owners  hear and understand.

Steve

Steve, very true! Money talks, ______ walks. Hopefully Lionel will realize that they are asking way too much for these products when we vote with our wallets.

Bryce

Are the tariffs still in place and adding to the price increases ?

The relevant question is whether Lionel's increased prices will cause people to forgo purchases they otherwise would have made. The only items in this catalog that I might have purchased would have been two Boston & Maine wood-sided passenger cars - but I will not buy at anything like the new price. I already have passenger cars that are correct for the B&M, so I don't have to have Lionel's new ones.

MELGAR

@shorling posted:

Are the tariffs still in place and adding to the price increases ?

I'm still paying tariffs on electronic components, so some of them are still in place.

@Trinity River Bottoms Boomer posted:

The prices that Lionel (Reg.U.S.Pat.Off.) expects to get for their acquired MTH models, as well as the announced brass hybred Strasburg (nee-Great Western) 2-10-0, I expect Menards will really clean house now.  Their new Santa Fe "FP7" proves anyone can now afford to board the O gauge train to happiness without having to take out a loan from their bank or credit union.

The orange and blue box manufacturer is on the Fast Track of removing the fun in the onetime Model Railroader magazine slogan, "Model Railroading is Fun". At Lionel it's almost becoming a thing of the past.  But hey, it's everyone's personal decision and pocketbook to decide if they can afford or want to pay unrealistic highjack prices for O gauge trains.  No finger pointing from the Peanut Galley guys.  Do it your way!

I suspect it is way too early to gauge Menard's future in motive power.  I have seen some of the videos of their new engine and it looks to be very well done.  However, if they decide to market this engine (outside of their 'beta' experiment) or others, I bet it will be much higher than the $129 price.

To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "Nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and the high cost of model trains"

Jim

Years ago I started to assemble a B&M Milk train. Just needed a wood combine and coach to complete it. Bought the MTH 3 car coach set and the add on on set. Thought for sure I could sell off what I didn’t need. No takers. Buyers want complete sets. Ended up moving on and sold the 2 sets.

Now Lionel is selling exactly what I want. Yes the price is high. $145 per car from a major dealer. For 2 cars it’s a little more than  what I paid for 3. But these cars compared to what’s out there today. Aren’t that far overpriced. I own plenty of GGD heavyweights. They sell for about $130. IF Lionel retains the same quality MTH put into these cars. These are probably the finest cars done in plastic. There’s a reason MTH offered separate sale 2 rail trucks that only fit these cars. They are that good.

In my case. I only want 2 cars. I can feel the pain if you are trying to assemble a Strasburg set and have to buy not only the engine. But need a fleet of cars to go with it. Your looking at a $3000 train.

@jd-train posted:

I suspect it is way too early to gauge Menard's future in motive power.  I have seen some of the videos of their new engine and it looks to be very well done.  However, if they decide to market this engine (outside of their 'beta' experiment) or others, I bet it will be much higher than the $129 price.

To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "Nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and the high cost of model trains"

Jim

LOL  I think Ben would agree on that paraphrase if he was on this Forum today!! 

New Lionel Products, Look at these Prices .......

The Second mouse gets the cheese!

Charlie

@rtraincollector posted:

The new Lionel Barn is $149.99, The Menards is $89.99. Now with that said Lionels is molded plastic, Menards is some type of compressed paper/hardboard.  Not taking sides but just pointing out the differences. Can Lionels fade due to sunlight or other light possible, can Menards, I have not heard of it happening but would not count it out.

The bottom line is, are you willing to pay almost 60 % more for the one from Lionel ( using MSRP not counting Menards 11% coupon as most of us can't really use them or discount from some of the dealers on Lionel products )

Personally, I like Menards barn better as it has more detail added to it, but will it last as long as Lionels, who knows, and at my age, it really doesn't matter to me, as I figure it will last what I have left on this earth.

Bottom line you have to decide which is the best for you and if your willing to pay Lionels higher prices.  Once I heard Lionel bought the molds I said to myself, yeah and they will come close to doubling the price to recover their investment meant and to get the profit margin they need to get it to the consumers via the distribution system they use seeing they have put a middle man between them and the hobby shop ( other than about the top-selling 10 I believe it is )

The Lionel Barn is a Christmas item. It has the reindeer names and Christmas lights. Did the MTH barn have the same details?

I looked at the 2021 v2 catalog for Lionel today, from this thread. 2k for an engine without any cars is pretty steep, to say the least. I looked at the strasburg? and it said 1899. I miss MTH already...

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm still paying tariffs on electronic components, so some of them are still in place.

Oh yes.  And the shipping charges have gone up exponentially.

Lou N

@RixTrack posted:

The Lionel Barn is a Christmas item. It has the reindeer names and Christmas lights. Did the MTH barn have the same details?

You're trying to refer to a completely different barn. Go read the original post it had nothing to do with Lionel Christmas Barn.

Stop trying to compare apples to oranges. This was never about that. This whole story was about the increase in prices that Lionel did to the items it bought molds for from MTH.

jd-train:  True!  We'll have to wait and see what the results are after Menards evaluates all the happy new owners of their "FP7" before the retail price will be released.

I'm pretty sure (as are many other members) that it won't be the introduction price that the 200 lucky members were able to purchase for testing.  That said, it will probably remain in the affordable price range when compared to the F units that Lionel, MTH, Williams by Bachmann, and GGD demand.  All of these manufacturers offer F units for every pocketbook.  It's left up to each individual model railroader to make the decision which one is best suited for his/her needs including the amount of $$$ one is willing to invest in same.

What we're witnessing here is Basic Econ 101.  In a hyper-inflationary market (unlike we've seen since the 1970's), the importer has to charge not what the item costs, but what he thinks the item will cost at time of delivery... PLUS the amount he thinks the next round of tooling/electronics developments will cost for 2022.

Much like your local gasoline retailer has to immediately raise prices at the pump based on the futures market, so that he'll have enough cash on hand to buy the next tanker of gas, train importers facing a hyper-inflationary market have to price at not the what an item costs now, but what they think it will cost in six months or a year out.

Jon

Yep prices are climbing.  You have a choice vote with your wallet and don't buy or buy.  One thing I can't stand, and I'm not saying anyone has done this here, is folks telling other people how to spend their money.  While nothing in the catalog of any great expense interests me, if it did I'd do what I always do and save up for it.  I am going to get a few things from the lower end of the cost spectrum and again I'll put some cash aside for that.

While I'm sure Lionel has a price point to meet their costs and make a profit I too sometimes scratch my head.  Then again sometimes I wonder was the other guy just selling it for too little?  Probably somewhere in the middle.

Here's my latest brush with inflation:  on the 4th of July my 16' sailboat (no motor) got t-boned by another, much larger boat.  Not a lot of hull damage, just busted teak and a couple of pieces of hardware.

The original purchase price when we had her built in 1981 was $9500.

The yard estimate for the work: $14,339.22.

The guys' insurance adjuster didn't even blink.

A big part of the price I'm sure is the yard's cost to replace their stock of clear, steam-bendable teak.  Whatever they install on my boat will have to replaced in their stock... and that will cost them 200-300% more than they purchased the last batch for... if they can even get it.

Jon

Seeing the prices side by side gives some "sticker shock." I've come to expect paying more for Lionel items in general but the comparison puts it in perspective.

The 19th Century Strasburg cars from MTH sold out very fast...missed them the first time, and eventually MTH re-issued them, and I missed them again, but got lucky and found a dealer a few years ago that had a set in storage...very little discount on those, however. I never did get the Strasburg engine, so the 2-8-0 is on my radar. On e-bay today the Strasburg cars still command a high price.

Admittingly, I am still getting over the listed prices for the scale Polar Express cars...but some dealers offered good pre-order discounts which took a bit of the sting away. Finding a dealer who can both offer good pre-order discounts and service the trains they sell is key in my opinion.

@Dave_C posted:

Years ago I started to assemble a B&M Milk train. Just needed a wood combine and coach to complete it. Bought the MTH 3 car coach set and the add on on set. Thought for sure I could sell off what I didn’t need. No takers. Buyers want complete sets. Ended up moving on and sold the 2 sets.

Now Lionel is selling exactly what I want. Yes the price is high. $145 per car from a major dealer. For 2 cars it’s a little more than  what I paid for 3. But these cars compared to what’s out there today. Aren’t that far overpriced. I own plenty of GGD heavyweights. They sell for about $130. IF Lionel retains the same quality MTH put into these cars. These are probably the finest cars done in plastic. There’s a reason MTH offered separate sale 2 rail trucks that only fit these cars. They are that good.

In my case. I only want 2 cars. I can feel the pain if you are trying to assemble a Strasburg set and have to buy not only the engine. But need a fleet of cars to go with it. Your looking at a $3000 train.

That's exactly the amount I paid for the Rio Grande passenger cars and locomotive from the Lionel 2021 V1 catalog.

Anthony

@CHOO-CHOO MIKE posted:

A fool and his money are soon parted.   Plenty of used stuff out there.

Sounds like my plant purchases as of late.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

Here's my latest brush with inflation:  on the 4th of July my 16' sailboat (no motor) got t-boned by another, much larger boat.  Not a lot of hull damage, just busted teak and a couple of pieces of hardware.

The original purchase price when we had her built in 1981 was $9500.

The yard estimate for the work: $14,339.22.

The guys' insurance adjuster didn't even blink.

A big part of the price I'm sure is the yard's cost to replace their stock of clear, steam-bendable teak.  Whatever they install on my boat will have to replaced in their stock... and that will cost them 200-300% more than they purchased the last batch for... if they can even get it.

Jon

The price of all kinds of lumber has gone up in the last year (it is starting to come down).  Teak has been soaring in price for years because it is a tropical hardwood that these days has all kinds of controls on the supply (to keep tropical rainforests from being wiped out in greed, true of other woods). A lot of that cost is going to be labor, skilled people doing that kind of work are billed out at a high cost, it is likely close to 100/hr or more. The teak is going to be big, but I would bet the labor is even moreso, you don't hire people at 7.25 to do that kind of work or people off the street.

Whether we are seeing long term inflation or simply suppressed demand because of covid exploding, no one knows. Part of the problems are shipping costs, the cost of shipping a container from Asia to the US has gone up literally 10 fold, I was talking to a guy whose business is in restaurant supply of all kinds, a container has gone from like 1600 dollars to over 16k today...plus labor rates in China went up as well significantly.

On the other hand Lionel prices have been high all along, otherwise why do we have all these threads complaining about the cost of things all these years? The top of the line engine MSRP has been going up and up, the MSRP has been pushing close to 2k. It doesn't look like Lionel is pricing for inflation, more than likely they simply are doing what has been going on all along *shrug*.

@bigkid posted:

Whether we are seeing long term inflation or simply suppressed demand because of covid exploding, no one knows. Part of the problems are shipping costs, the cost of shipping a container from Asia to the US has gone up literally 10 fold, I was talking to a guy whose business is in restaurant supply of all kinds, a container has gone from like 1600 dollars to over 16k today...plus labor rates in China went up as well significantly.

On the other hand Lionel prices have been high all along, otherwise why do we have all these threads complaining about the cost of things all these years? The top of the line engine MSRP has been going up and up, the MSRP has been pushing close to 2k. It doesn't look like Lionel is pricing for inflation, more than likely they simply are doing what has been going on all along *shrug*.

Sounds like container shipping has widely variable costs, or the market is just volatile right now.  Scott Mann from 3rd Rail said that his normal costs are $3500 and he was charged an extra $6000 for the F3s that are due in the late summer or early fall.

That's still quite a jump but not 10x as you've noted.  Sounds like a fun industry to be in these days.

https://ogrforum.com/...4#156561155833629504

Edit: Just thinking about it, for a 200 unit shipment, that's about a $30 price bump per unit.  Or about 5%.  I don't know what Scott's margins are, but that's not insignificant.  Let's hope I'm off on a the guess of a 200 unit run and it's higher than that.

@romiller49 posted:

Come on now. Are you serious? Maybe you should be asking how much money MTH made off this deal.

Rod:

I recognize that there was a touch of sarcasm in your reply. For the record though, no firm is going to disclose how they priced their products or how much money they made on an M&A transaction. That's confidential and proprietary information.

Pat

(evil austin powers pinky) 1 meeeeellion dollars. (for those unaware, Dr Evil (Mike Myers) was a villain in the 60s. In the 90s, he comes back to villainy, and threatens bad things unless someone pays him 1 million dollars.)

@rplst8 posted:

Sounds like container shipping has widely variable costs, or the market is just volatile right now.  Scott Mann from 3rd Rail said that his normal costs are $3500 and he was charged an extra $6000 for the F3s that are due in the late summer or early fall.

That's still quite a jump but not 10x as you've noted.  Sounds like a fun industry to be in these days.

https://ogrforum.com/...4#156561155833629504

Edit: Just thinking about it, for a 200 unit shipment, that's about a $30 price bump per unit.  Or about 5%.  I don't know what Scott's margins are, but that's not insignificant.  Let's hope I'm off on a the guess of a 200 unit run and it's higher than that.

@bigkid posted:

Whether we are seeing long term inflation or simply suppressed demand because of covid exploding, no one knows. Part of the problems are shipping costs, the cost of shipping a container from Asia to the US has gone up literally 10 fold, I was talking to a guy whose business is in restaurant supply of all kinds, a container has gone from like 1600 dollars to over 16k today...plus labor rates in China went up as well significantly.

On the other hand Lionel prices have been high all along, otherwise why do we have all these threads complaining about the cost of things all these years? The top of the line engine MSRP has been going up and up, the MSRP has been pushing close to 2k. It doesn't look like Lionel is pricing for inflation, more than likely they simply are doing what has been going on all along *shrug*.

If if those shipping prices return to some level of normalcy, do you think Lionel will reflect that in their future prices? My experience is that once it goes up it never comes back down. And that's not just Lionel, we find this practice in pretty much every industry except fuel, groceries, and other consumables.

Those who invested in Lionel to save it from oblivion some years back have realized that in order to survive, Lionel must move up market to ensure adequate cash flow to support it.   Many businesses have moved upmarket in the past 35 years.   Why fight against other makers to capture the low price category where the profits are small and the competition is fierce when you can innovate and sell every piece you produce at a healthy margin to a clientele that doesn’t consider the higher price point a factor.  

Harley Davidson certainly had success marketing to a higher priced clientele but has been shown there is a limit and a finite market.

I think today’s prices are a little crazy but have come to accept what they are.  My bigger concern is will these high prices deter possible new hobbyists?  If MTH did not have the Railking line 20 years ago I’m not sure I would have started back in the hobby again.  Once the hook was set I was addicted but the initial investment can be daunting.

@Toro5xi posted:

I think today’s prices are a little crazy but have come to accept what they are.  My bigger concern is will these high prices deter possible new hobbyists?  If MTH did not have the Railking line 20 years ago I’m not sure I would have started back in the hobby again.  Once the hook was set I was addicted but the initial investment can be daunting.

That is something that I am concerned about as well. I wish Lionel would put their Traditional O Gauge equipment in the front of the catalog so that when kids and parents look at the catalog for the first time, they aren't immediately blown away by sticker shock and put the book and hobby down immediately for being out of their price range. I don't think this would be an issue for the rest of the hobby either as anyone who is interested in the more expensive products is definitely willing to flip to the back of the catalog to see the new top-of-the-line products.

Just my thoughts, but you gotta save the best for last!

@Toro5xi posted:

Harley Davidson certainly had success marketing to a higher priced clientele but has been shown there is a limit and a finite market.

I think today’s prices are a little crazy but have come to accept what they are.  My bigger concern is will these high prices deter possible new hobbyists?  If MTH did not have the Railking line 20 years ago I’m not sure I would have started back in the hobby again.  Once the hook was set I was addicted but the initial investment can be daunting.

New hobbyists will have no frame of reference as far as costs are concerned.  In fact, many may not be interested in owning the Lionel products of the past as the newer technologies are more familiar. There are a lot of people that have no emotional attachment to past product lines.

Coming from HO and N scales, I found the RailKing line much more attractive in price than Premier and Lionel scale.  This was before Lionel presented the first LionChief.  After buying some Premier engines and cars, I noticed the difference and coming from a scale background, I was no longer interested in a lot of RailKing, though I do like the RailKing scale small diesels.  So yes, modern semi-scale got me started in O gauge.

I have a friend who was my coworker and later supervisor when I was still working.  His son was about 8 at the time and wanted an O gauge train.  Knowing he is unusual for his generation in that he is fascinated with old electrical devices, I asked if he wanted a modern set or postwar set.  Of course he wanted a postwar set.  Recently his dad posted his son’s train set up on the wooden floor.  Now he is 10 or 11and has acquired lots of switches and accessories, and has everything working smoothly!  

There are very few like him to be sure!  I just thought I would throw his story out there.

I have not even bothered to look at anything from lionel in years.  I got burned back in the 80's during

their "CREATE A COLLECTIBLE" phase. Got two grey hudsons for cost from my dealer, $750 each. They didn't

mention they were flooding the market. Then there was the Hiawatha set. Same story. Lost my b*tt on all

of them. Plus I am not a fan of Neil Young anymore.

@beardog49 posted:

I have not even bothered to look at anything from lionel in years.  I got burned back in the 80's during

their "CREATE A COLLECTIBLE" phase. Got two grey hudsons for cost from my dealer, $750 each. They didn't

mention they were flooding the market. Then there was the Hiawatha set. Same story. Lost my b*tt on all

of them. Plus I am not a fan of Neil Young anymore.

In the 80s I wanted to put up a layout.  I went to a store and looked around.  I had  an N scale and an HO scale train previously but, wanted something else.  I was told not to bother with Lionel because they were not made well.  I ended up with LGB. It was big but well made and 35 years later it was still working well no issues other than routine service.  I decided it was too big and last year went all in with all new Lionel that was almost paid for by selling off my LGB and Aristocraft.  I understand holding a griludge against product lines.  I owned GM cars and every one was junk.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Because they can!

Exactly and no matter how much complaining is done, they will still be purchased.

Looking back through the last 7 years of catalogs. Lionel prices have gone up by appropriately 10% per year on new items.  With repeat products staying the same.  Every technological difference also increases prices on similar items like starter sets.  I can see how some people that have to buy everything they see would go broke.  But that’s on the buyer’s lack of control and not the fault of Lionel. If you’re an addict you can’t blame the dealer for the price of the drugs. It’s your habit.

@jd-train posted:

I suspect it is way too early to gauge Menard's future in motive power.  I have seen some of the videos of their new engine and it looks to be very well done.  However, if they decide to market this engine (outside of their 'beta' experiment) or others, I bet it will be much higher than the $129 price.

To paraphrase Ben Franklin, "Nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and the high cost of model trains"

Jim

I agree it too soon tell if Menards will be successful.  I think their rolling stock leaves a lot to be desired as far as quality.  I bought several sets and sold them off on line for a profit.  I like products that work well out of the box and their stud puff always seems to need adjusted or modified.  It is my money and I would and do pay more to get better quality merchandise.