when you're the only shop in town, with no real competition you can charge whatever you want.
Isn't that the American way?
Bryce,
Great thread! I had just been in email convo with friends with nearly identical year/price comparisons by MTH item number to yours. Our research matched yours, so well done!
I'd like to add one theoretical about the MTH Commercial Dealership Building Price (2011 RTR) - $59.95 , Lionel Commercial Dealership Building Price - $149.99. This building is the base 2-story unit for the MTH 6-story department stores which haven't been produced since 2011 RTR. Last priced at $99.95 MSRP, the 6-story has commanded over 150% of that used on eBay. If Lionel decided to produce the sought-after 6-story, it could approach $450 MSRP new.
All this makes me wonder how much the inflated price demands by some dealers on the auction site might be driving price markups you've noted here. And if the doubling of price is to recapture Lionel's tooling acquisition costs, then Mike Wolf deserves to be saluted as one heck of a negotiator!
I'll closed by adding that it appears Big L bought the MTH firetruck as well. Firetruck MTH - $44.95 Lionel - $69.99
Again great thread!
Bryan
Wow! Didn’t think it would be this bad, but it does seem to be model specific. While there are fewer competitors, atlas and now maybe menards can keep Lionel in check a bit. However, the consequences of injecting an unspeakable amount of $ into the system are likely also a major factor (look at the car industry, groceries, etc.). More dollars are chasing the same amount of or (with supply disruptions/business closures) fewer goods. Thankfully, I don’t see anything that I need in this catalog.
@Cadillac Mike posted:Inflation plain and simple.
A 100% increase from discounted MTH prices compared to Charles Ro discounted lionel prices is due to "inflation, plain and simple"? Nope, not even close. This is far more than the implied inflation rate that we are seeing in the economy right now. What's even worse is that the buildings noted above that have doubled in price are not dependent on chips and microprocessors, which have seen significant price increases due to covid related supply chain interruptions. No, this is predominantly the effect of lost competition and a company that thinks they can impose near monopolistic pricing in order to more than recoup their MTH tooling purchase prices. Yes, inflation and supply chain disruptions are a component of this increase, but clearly not the majority. Just look at the regular special production run pricing from MTH and their suppliers, regularly posted on this forum - RS-1s, RS-3s, Woodsided reefers, assorted steamers, etc. all within reasonable margins compared to prior MTH catalog pricing, not 100% increases. If we had such exorbitant hidden inflation, it would be impossible to sell those at the prices offered, yet they do. Nope. the 100% price increases are due to far more than inflation/supply chain interruptions.
Fortunately for those folks who are balking at Big L's pricing, there's a lot of trains out there on the secondary market. For me, I'm at the point where I have more trains than I ever dreamed of having, and I'm happy. However, I will spring for that one iter two that I've just "gotta have". Fortunately for my pocketbook, those items are few and far between. And I balk at preordering much from Big L. There's been numerous instances of quality issues, or delivered items not as shown in the catalog.
Given the demographics of this hobby many, many of us should remember the good old days, but from most of the comments so far apparently we've contracted selective amnesia.
Inflation ate us alive from the late 1960's through the early 1980's, and now it's back.
I don't mind all of the complaining about Lionel's pricing, because it comes with the territory. Unfortunately its products have always been ridiculously expensive; from day one.
But here and now, today, don't you understand that everything is going up in price outrageously?
Welcome back, and please fasten your seat belts. The ride may get bumpy.
Mike
In the short time between Lionel's 2021 volume 1 catalog and this catalog many of our vendors at work have had two price increases when they typically have at most one a year.
I can't buy much because of the price increases but I am not sure what people were expecting.
@RidgeRunner posted:Bryce,
Great thread! I had just been in email convo with friends with nearly identical year/price comparisons by MTH item number to yours. Our research matched yours, so well done!
I'd like to add one theoretical about the MTH Commercial Dealership Building Price (2011 RTR) - $59.95 , Lionel Commercial Dealership Building Price - $149.99. This building is the base 2-story unit for the MTH 6-story department stores which haven't been produced since 2011 RTR. Last priced at $99.95 MSRP, the 6-story has commanded over 150% of that used on eBay. If Lionel decided to produce the sought-after 6-story, it could approach $450 MSRP new.
All this makes me wonder how much the inflated price demands by some dealers on the auction site might be driving price markups you've noted here. And if the doubling of price is to recapture Lionel's tooling acquisition costs, then Mike Wolf deserves to be saluted as one heck of a negotiator!
I'll closed by adding that it appears Big L bought the MTH firetruck as well. Firetruck MTH - $44.95 Lionel - $69.99
Again great thread!
Bryan
Glad to hear that the numbers match up! If Lionel lists the 6-story building for over $350, be in shock. Best of luck to them if they do... I thought that firetruck looked familiar but I wasn't 100% sure
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Inflation ate us alive from the late 1960's through the early 1980's, and now it's back.
I don't mind all of the complaining about Lionel's pricing, because it comes with the territory. Unfortunately its products have always been ridiculously expensive; from day one.
But here and now, today, don't you understand that everything is going up in price outrageously?
Welcome back, and please fasten your seat belts. The ride may get bumpy.
Mike
As previously stated: the issue is the O-gauge market is accustomed to the msrp set by MTH for these products for the past ~20 years.
These are the prices adjusted for 2021 (Assuming my math is correct, please feel free to check my numbers):
MTH Barn Price Price (2019 RTR) - $79.95 -> ~$84.97
MTH Townhouse Price (2020 RTR) - $49.95, -> ~$52.44
MTH 3-Story City Building Price (2020 RTR) - $79.95 -> ~$83.93
MTH Commercial Dealership Building Price (2011 RTR) - $59.95 , -> ~$72.40
MTH 64' Woodside 3-Car Set Price (2020 Vol 1) - $289.95, -> ~$304.39 (~$101.46 per car)
MTH CA-1 Caboose Price (2017 Vol 2) - $69.95, -> $77.53
Bryce
I'm not crying about the Strasburg 64' coach prices. Here is my explanation from another post:
Charles Ro has them for $287.95
Given this hyperinflationary period, purchasing/retrofitting the tooling and the shipping container issues. +$87.95 doesn't seem that bad.
I guess I don't know what shops were selling them for but Nick Smith has a set of 5 of the MTH Strasburg Coaches in an older paint scheme for $449.99
So that's ~$90/ea if you buy 5 MTH or $143/ea if you buy 2 new Lionel. Really doesn't seem THAT bad under the circumstances.
I have a difficult time seeing anyone but the most Lionel loyalist purchasing a Lionel building over a Menard's building. You can buy the Menard's building for much less, with more extras, and get in the mail today coming to your house soon. Or you can wait until who knows when to sometime in the distant future, where most likely by then you forgot you ordered, and...
First new catalog of any manufacturer I’ve looked at in years. Sticker shock!
@TheRambles posted:I'm not crying about the Strasburg 64' coach prices. Here is my explanation from another post:
Charles Ro has them for $287.95
Given this hyperinflationary period, purchasing/retrofitting the tooling and the shipping container issues. +$87.95 doesn't seem that bad.
I guess I don't know what shops were selling them for but Nick Smith has a set of 5 of the MTH Strasburg Coaches in an older paint scheme for $449.99
So that's ~$90/ea if you buy 5 MTH or $143/ea if you buy 2 new Lionel. Really doesn't seem THAT bad under the circumstances.
You are making an apples to oranges comparison. Nick smith is offering a discontinued product that is in limited supply. He is charging a steep margin for it accordingly, just like how many MTH subway sets are being offered at significant prices above discounted MSRP when released. The real comparison is to the recently discounted new production prices asked by dealers for the MTH product and comparing that to the "new" lionel discounted prices. Then, based on the time between the two, you have to determine if the inflation rate and added costs due to supply chain interruptions is reasonable.
For me, a better gauge of how inflation has really impacted the hobby is just to look at the numerous special runs of new diesels, steamers, rolling stock, and accessories regularly posted by MTH and dealers on this forum. Yes, prices are up anywhere between 5-15%, from their most recent catalog production releases of a year or 2 ago. Not anywhere close to the Lionel increases.
With the excessive pricing on the buildings, it seems that Lionel almost doesn't want to be in the building game anymore as there are so many other options out there. From preowned to Menards to Woodland Scenics, it seems that almost anywhere else you can get significantly more for your buck.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_, thank you for bringing up this topic. When people talk about the future of the hobby, one of the biggest hurdles is always the cost involved. I'm not sure Lionel thought this one all of the way through as the preassembled buildings are often used with the starter train sets when building a first layout and this is one more thing for parents to balk at the price of.
@Strap Hanger posted:You are making an apples to oranges comparison. Nick smith is offering a discontinued product that is in limited supply. He is charging a steep margin for it accordingly, just like how many MTH subway sets are being offered at significant prices above discounted MSRP when released. The real comparison is to the recently discounted new production prices asked by dealers for the MTH product and comparing that to the "new" lionel discounted prices. Then, based on the time between the two, you have to determine if the inflation rate and added costs due to supply chain interruptions is reasonable.
For me, a better gauge of how inflation has really impacted the hobby is just to look at the numerous special runs of new diesels, steamers, rolling stock, and accessories regularly posted by MTH and dealers on this forum. Yes, prices are up anywhere between 5-15%, from their most recent catalog production releases of a year or 2 ago. Not anywhere close to the Lionel increases.
Sincerely, thank you for replying. I see your point about apples and oranges.
In the end, what’s the alternative? If o scale model trains was a super hot market where companies made money hand over fist, there’d be more competition. I’m grateful for the product to even be available. I expect these to be great quality scale models mass produced for a somewhat niche market.
We will see what the future has in store, but for now these companies are small fish in turbulent international shipping waters. They are likely seeing unprecedented costs on their side.
The higher costs on accessories and coaches might be going to supplement the chips in the engines (electronic, not paint 😂).
@TheRambles posted:I'm not crying about the Strasburg 64' coach prices. Here is my explanation from another post:
Charles Ro has them for $287.95
Given this hyperinflationary period, purchasing/retrofitting the tooling and the shipping container issues. +$87.95 doesn't seem that bad.
I guess I don't know what shops were selling them for but Nick Smith has a set of 5 of the MTH Strasburg Coaches in an older paint scheme for $449.99
So that's ~$90/ea if you buy 5 MTH or $143/ea if you buy 2 new Lionel. Really doesn't seem THAT bad under the circumstances.
@Strap Hanger posted:You are making an apples to oranges comparison. Nick smith is offering a discontinued product that is in limited supply. He is charging a steep margin for it accordingly, just like how many MTH subway sets are being offered at significant prices above discounted MSRP when released. The real comparison is to the recently discounted new production prices asked by dealers for the MTH product and comparing that to the "new" lionel discounted prices. Then, based on the time between the two, you have to determine if the inflation rate and added costs due to supply chain interruptions is reasonable.
For me, a better gauge of how inflation has really impacted the hobby is just to look at the numerous special runs of new diesels, steamers, rolling stock, and accessories regularly posted by MTH and dealers on this forum. Yes, prices are up anywhere between 5-15%, from their most recent catalog production releases of a year or 2 ago. Not anywhere close to the Lionel increases.
Charles Ro is eating into their own profits, I'd rather see my money go to them.
Strap Hanger is right about inflation numbers, using the years mentioned in my original post:
2020 to 2021: ~5% increase
2019 to 2021: ~ 6.3% increase
2017 to 2021: ~ 10.8% increase
2011 to 2021: ~ 20.8% increase
I assume these prices are helping offset the cost of MTH tooling and/or adding profit for Lionel. If the increase in msrp is this dramatic, it is my opinion they shouldn't have purchased the tooling in the first place.
Bryce
In the ready made building space people aren't going to spend that kind of money on a building when you can get a Woodland Scenics building with way more bang for the money.
Two things can be true at once. While I do argue that inflation and supply disruptions have a large impact on pricing, Lionel obviously is off the reservation with the structures and fire truck pricing. Steam prices were crazy, the 70mac (I think former mth) was significantly higher, the sw1200 is about $50 too much, and I think the sd45 stayed the same (thank God). I usually purchase second hand/new old stock rolling stock, so I’m flying blind on those, though they do seem higher. With the last yr’s craziness, inflation, and fewer competitors, I expected $20-50 increase. Hopefully things level out.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Personally, I do not want to pay double the price for basically the exact same product.
And I don't want to pay 8 times the old price for a 2 x 4 or a sheet of roofing tin, either, but there it is, and the result has nothing to do with Lionel's rapacious pricing. I had saved to put in a back-up house generator this year, and the cost of that has doubled, too.
I dislike Lionel's pricing as much as the next guy, but trying to blame this on them is to ignore the deeper, broader economic trends right now. The fact of the pricing is irrefutable; the reasoning posited for it by too many people is flawed.
Not to take sides (but aren't we all really?) on a complex situation that none of us knows much about, but.....
One more thought from the bleachers: Most of us appear to think that the MTH past prices are a reasonable benchmark, even considering all the inflationary events of recent months. There is a chance that MTH may have been pricing some or many of these items too low.
BTW, Is anyone comparing Atlas prices on MTH purchased products? Just sayin.....
As the expression goes, "I am not an economist but I know one...."
palallin,
Very well said.
Mike
@palallin posted:And I don't want to pay 8 times the old price for a 2 x 4 or a sheet of roofing tin, either, but there it is, and the result has nothing to do with Lionel's rapacious pricing. I had saved to put in a back-up house generator this year, and the cost of that has doubled, too.
I dislike Lionel's pricing as much as the next guy, but trying to blame this on them is to ignore the deeper, broader economic trends right now. The fact of the pricing is irrefutable; the reasoning posited for it by too many people is flawed.
Respectfully, I have mentioned inflation/economic issues. I also said:
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:I would be very eager to see if Lionel could show us how they priced these out
We already discussed that they are a private company and I highly doubt they will tell us.
I must also point out the prices of their own products:
Lionel's Legacy SD70MAC (2018): $599.99 - (2021): $649.99 - Using 8.2% inflation from 2018 to 2021 they should be ~$648.11
Lionel's Legacy SD45 (2018): $599.99 - (2021): $599.99 - Using 8.2% inflation from 2018 to 2021 they should be ~$648.11but it is the same price!
Lionel's Legacy DD35A (2012): $599.99 - (2021): $699.99 - Using 18.3% inflation from 2012 to 2021 they should be ~$708.84 but it is a few dollar cheaper
Both model years have legacy and in the livestream it was mentioned that the models have improvements to road specific details. How come these models do not buck the trend of inflation?
I do not want to pick a fight/argue with anyone but these ex-MTH models do not fit the trend, that's why I started this thread.
Bryce
@hokie71 posted:BTW, Is anyone comparing Atlas prices on MTH purchased products? Just sayin.....
As the expression goes, "I am not an economist but I know one...."
FWIW, a sample...
2021 Atlas Premier SD40-2 MSRP $569.99 v 2020 MTH Premier SD40-2 MSRP $519.95 --- 9.6% increase
Atlas Premier 50' High Cube boxcar $79.95 v 2020 MTH Premier High Cube boxcar MSRP $69.95 --- 14% increase.
Seems in line with Bryce's inflation numbers in 2020-21 and some cost recovery.
Draw your own conclusions on inflation/tooling acquisition cost recovery strategy by Atlas vs that being discussed here.
Worth remembering these Atlas products are MTH products that were in the pipeline but are being rebranded, unless I am mistaken. The real test of increased cost will be products made in the MTH factory by Atlas for delivery in 2022. I would not be surprised at much greater price increases at that time, when the MTH contracts are no longer in effect and the factory charges Atlas what they think is reasonable and shipping/materials/labor costs are fully updated.
Remember that K-Line was making products that seemed a bargain until the red ink overwhelmed the company. Is it possible that the same thing happened to MTH due market shrinkage and costs going through the roof? Bottom line is whether there will be weekly locomotive announcements from MTH come late 2021 and early 2022, and what the pricing structure will be at that time.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Respectfully, I have mentioned inflation/economic issues. I also said:
We already discussed that they are a private company and I highly doubt they will tell us.
I must also point out the prices of their own products:
Lionel's Legacy SD70MAC (2018): $599.99 - (2021): $649.99 - Using 8.2% inflation from 2018 to 2021 they should be ~$648.11
Lionel's Legacy SD45 (2018): $599.99 - (2021): $599.99 - Using 8.2% inflation from 2018 to 2021 they should be ~$648.11but it is the same price!
Lionel's Legacy DD35A (2012): $599.99 - (2021): $699.99 - Using 18.3% inflation from 2012 to 2021 they should be ~$708.84 but it is a few dollar cheaper
Both model years have legacy and in the livestream it was mentioned that the models have improvements to road specific details. How come these models do not buck the trend of inflation?
I do not want to pick a fight/argue with anyone but these ex-MTH models do not fit the trend, that's why I started this thread.
Bryce
They could be "loss leaders", designed to spur sales and not profits while building a loyal Lionel base, Bryce. Sticking solely with the price increases of the MTH tooling items purchased by Lionel, it is clearly far in excess of inflation/supply chain disruption increases and is not reflective of the inflation that has impacted our model train hobby specifically. You can safely say that by comparing them to the numerous pre production MTH items offered at prices which clearly align with normal inflation rates. To imply that these MTH sold items are "loss leaders " would be ridiculous. They are a good benchmark of the cost and market for MTH product right now so lets look at them. The numerous special runs of new diesels, steamers, rolling stock, and accessories regularly posted by MTH and dealers on this forum.are up anywhere between 5-15% from their most recent catalog production releases of a year or 2 ago, very much in line with the implied rate of inflation during the period. There is your unbiased gauge of the market. If inflation/covid supply chain disruptions were the sole basis for Lionel's price increases of MTH tooling items, then you would clearly see the same increases in this MTH production pricing, but you don't. That is a fact, not speculation. What is speculation is the reason for Lionel jacking up the prices so high - did mike take them to the cleaners and they want to recoup?, do they feel they can get away with monopolistic pricing? Who knows.
@third rail posted:We have just seen the effects of a loss of competition. Plus looking further into the catalog, there are some hefty price increases for 20 -70 year old tooling.
And not a lot of choice of road names/models at those prices.
@hokie71 posted:BTW, Is anyone comparing Atlas prices on MTH purchased products? Just sayin.....
I wasn't going to since the numbers made sense to me, but since you asked...
MTH 44 Tonner PS3 (2020 V2): $449.95 - Atlas 44 Tonner PS3 (2021): $449.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$472.35 but it is the same price!
MTH SD40-2 PS3 (2020 V1): $519.95 - Atlas SD40-2 PS3 (2021): $569.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$545.84. It is $20 more
MTH PS-1 Boxcar (2020 V1): $69.95 - Atlas PS-1 Boxcar (2021): $79.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$73.43. It is $6 more
MTH 70' Heavyweight RPO (2019 V1): $99.95 - Atlas 70' RPO (2021): $109.95 - Using 6.3% inflation from 2019 to 2021 they should be ~$106.22. It is $3 more
MTH 2 Bay Offset Hopper (2020 V2): $64.95 - Atlas 2 Bay Offset Hopper (2021): $79.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$68.12. It is $11 more
MTH 50' Airslide Hopper (2016 V1): $69.95 - Atlas 50' Airslide Hopper (2021): $79.95 Using 13.2% inflation from 2016 to 2021 they should be ~$79.19.
@Strap Hanger posted:They could be "loss leaders", designed to spur sales and not profits while building a loyal Lionel base, Bryce. Sticking solely with the price increases of the MTH tooling items purchased by Lionel, it is clearly far in excess of inflation/supply chain disruption increases and is not reflective of the inflation that has impacted our model train hobby specifically. You can safely say that by comparing them to the numerous pre production MTH items offered at prices which clearly align with normal inflation rates. To imply that these MTH sold items are "loss leaders " would be ridiculous. They are a good benchmark of the cost and market for MTH product right now so lets look at them. The numerous special runs of new diesels, steamers, rolling stock, and accessories regularly posted by MTH and dealers on this forum.are up anywhere between 5-15% from their most recent catalog production releases of a year or 2 ago, very much in line with the implied rate of inflation during the period. There is your unbiased gauge of the market. If inflation/covid supply chain disruptions were the sole basis for Lionel's price increases of MTH tooling items, then you would clearly see the same increases in this MTH production pricing, but you don't. That is a fact, not speculation. What is speculation is the reason for Lionel jacking up the prices so high - did mike take them to the cleaners and they want to recoup?, do they feel they can get away with monopolistic pricing? Who knows.
Perhaps. We would only know that if Lionel chimed in, but I doubt they will reveal their business plans to us
Bryce
I'm a bit of a skeptic when it comes to the argument about price increases being blamed on inflation and shipping costs.
Chinese workers are not getting a $15.00 minimum wage per hour to crank out toy trains. Their factories opened up much faster than ours.
Lionel will issue 2 more catalogs before many of these items will reach our shores. We'll be lucky if they are available for Christmas 2022.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:I wasn't going to since the numbers made sense to me, but since you asked...
MTH 44 Tonner PS3 (2020 V2): $449.95 - Atlas 44 Tonner PS3 (2021): $449.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$472.35 but it is the same price!
MTH SD40-2 PS3 (2020 V1): $519.95 - Atlas SD40-2 PS3 (2021): $569.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$545.84. It is $20 more
MTH PS-1 Boxcar (2020 V1): $69.95 - Atlas PS-1 Boxcar (2021): $79.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$73.43. It is $6 more
MTH 70' Heavyweight RPO (2019 V1): $99.95 - Atlas 70' RPO (2021): $109.95 - Using 6.3% inflation from 2019 to 2021 they should be ~$106.22. It is $3 more
MTH 2 Bay Offset Hopper (2020 V2): $64.95 - Atlas 2 Bay Offset Hopper (2021): $79.95 - Using 5% inflation from 2020 to 2021 they should be ~$68.12. It is $11 more
MTH 50' Airslide Hopper (2016 V1): $69.95 - Atlas 50' Airslide Hopper (2021): $79.95 Using 13.2% inflation from 2016 to 2021 they should be ~$79.19.Perhaps. We would only know that if Lionel chimed in, but I doubt they will reveal their business plans to us
Bryce
LOL! Great job Bryce. Thanks for dispelling more baseless apologia
I guess both MTH and Atlas are selling these new products, which will be delivered at future dates just like the Lionel product, at incredible losses due to the 100% hidden inflation rampant in the o-gauge hobby. They're just too stupid to jack up the prices like Lionel, Yeah, that's the ticket! LOL!
"They're just too stupid to jack up the prices like Lionel, Yeah, that's the ticket! LOL!"
Before we get real confident about this analysis, consider the track record over the last five years or so, in terms of new tooling and the apparent market success of the companies involved. Atlas, a total non-factor. MTH, slowing contracting, no new tooling, and now selling off much of its existing tooling and becoming basically a hole-in-the wall business with few employees. Lionel, still putting out large catalogs, selling sets every holiday season at most hobby shops, creating new tooling and buying MTH tooling.
Which company seems to have a more successful, sustainable long term business plan? As said, it will take a year or two to find out. But right now, it looks like Lionel will likely be the last full line company standing, when it comes to substance and new tooling/innovation.
@DylTrains posted:*groans* Don't forget also that Canadians usually have to pay 30%ish more on top of that price (in CAD to USD). Sometimes its less than 30% more but with taxes and shipping.... (ie $400 USD woodsided passenger cars = $530ish CAD + tax + shipping)
I almost forgot about our neighbors to the north! I am sorry to hear that you guys pay the extra 30%..
@Landsteiner posted:"They're just too stupid to jack up the prices like Lionel, Yeah, that's the ticket! LOL!"
Before we get real confident about this analysis, consider the track record over the last five years or so, in terms of new tooling and the apparent market success of the companies involved. Atlas, a total non-factor. MTH, slowing contracting, no new tooling, and now selling off much of its existing tooling and becoming basically a hole-in-the wall business with few employees. Lionel, still putting out large catalogs, selling sets every holiday season at most hobby shops, creating new tooling and buying MTH tooling.
Which company seems to have a more successful, sustainable long term business plan? As said, it will take a year or two to find out. But right now, it looks like Lionel will likely be the last full line company standing, when it comes to substance and new tooling/innovation.
I wonder of the next big O Gauge giant will be Menards.
@Landsteiner posted:"They're just too stupid to jack up the prices like Lionel, Yeah, that's the ticket! LOL!"
Before we get real confident about this analysis, consider the track record over the last five years or so, in terms of new tooling and the apparent market success of the companies involved. Atlas, a total non-factor. MTH, slowing contracting, no new tooling, and now selling off much of its existing tooling and becoming basically a hole-in-the wall business with few employees. Lionel, still putting out large catalogs, selling sets every holiday season at most hobby shops, creating new tooling and buying MTH tooling.
Which company seems to have a more successful, sustainable long term business plan? As said, it will take a year or two to find out. But right now, it looks like Lionel will likely be the last full line company standing, when it comes to substance and new tooling/innovation.
Confident? It was a tongue in cheek comment (the LOL! usually gives that away). The only thing I'm confident about is that the 100% price increases are clearly not solely due to inflation or supply chain disruptions, for the numerous reasons set forth above. Everything else is speculation and just a bunch of guys on a train forum having fun. That being said, If Lionel had an MTH subway that I hadn't previously purchased in the catalog, I'm more than confident (in fact, certain) that I'd pay the 100% jacked up pricing in a heartbeat, but that's just me- a crazy subway guy.
@Landsteiner posted:Before we get real confident about this analysis, consider the track record over the last five years or so, in terms of new tooling and the apparent market success of the companies involved. Atlas, a total non-factor. MTH, slowing contracting, no new tooling, and now selling off much of its existing tooling and becoming basically a hole-in-the wall business with few employees. Lionel, still putting out large catalogs, selling sets every holiday season at most hobby shops, creating new tooling and buying MTH tooling.
Which company seems to have a more successful, sustainable long term business plan? As said, it will take a year or two to find out. But right now, it looks like Lionel will likely be the last full line company standing, when it comes to substance and new tooling/innovation.
Very true. I want people to collect data and form opinions of their own. I do not want anyone to take my analysis as gospel. The main reason for my post is to highlight the giant discrepancy in price jumps between Lionel products and former MTH products.
Unless Atlas ramps up production, Lionel will be the only major player in the O-gauge world
"I wonder of the next big O Gauge giant will be Menards."
That would be a good thing, if the market can sustain them. Particularly since they address the lower cost market, which is important for new hobbyists and younger people. It's somewhat limiting they are a regional, not national chain, but most orders are web based for trains, I seem to recall someone stating. I know if they are producing locomotives for <$200 with command capability even experienced hobbyists will be interested. I have quite a bit of their rolling stock and have been tempted by their buildings.
What does everybody make of 3rd Rail's (incredibly awesome) Allegheny that's coming out? MSRP $4799.95?
I thought the modern pricing was debunked in a thread earlier this year where we discovered the high end prewar locomotives Lionel made were as expensive as the modern high end locomotives Lionel makes? I admit that spiking prices is more painful than slow increasing them over time. That would be my strategy.
On a side note, I really love Atlas rolling stock. I haven't had one of their locomotives yet but I think they make outstanding rolling stock. I have bought one piece of Lionel rolling stock compared to probably 10 of Atlas.
Does anyone have a list of which steam engines Lionel acquired from MTH?
@VThokie Steam Fan posted:Does anyone have a list of which steam engines Lionel acquired from MTH?
No, the most information we have currently is from Pat's Trains from this post:
https://ogrforum.com/...still-in-business-1?
He states:
"In regards to Lionel.
- Lionel has purchased some tooling and not all of the tooling.
- Lionel has purchased some Railking Accessories, including some of the Railking Buildings. Only a small to modest amount.
- Lionel has bought a few of the Premier Steam and Diesel Engine tools, a small amount.
- Lionel has bought a few of the Bantom Railking Engine tools.
- Lionel has purchased the Tooling to the 64’ passenger cars Woodside variations."
I'm not sure about lionel strategy, but would you rather sell 10 pieces and make 100.00 each or sell 100 pieces and make 25.00 each.?
Also if the quality is still bad, then the higher price exacerbates the customer dissstifaction.
Did the MTH tooling cost so much that these higher prises are necessary?
By charging such high prices are you killing the prospects of new people coming into the hobby?, i.e. killing your future. It is a dying demographic anyway but without younger blood your business will die (unless you get into chemistry sets, child kitchen stoves and fishing rods)
Sounds like Menard and possibly Atlas are the eventual future of the hobby.
It’s their business and they will run it as it suits them. No one can force anyone to buy any item. Complaining about pricing is unproductive. If you can’t fit something into your budget then, walk away. If enough people do it you’ll see changes.
You will not see me buy Lionel’s newly acquired tooled items when you can go to 3rd party sellers buying MTH products and get a better deal, you know you won’t have to cut an arm and leg off to buy it.
