Menards is really low-end stuff - not really competition for Lionel legacy items.
In the vol II catalog, been wondering why the 2-10-0 is quite a bit higher than any other steamer?
The 2-10-0 being in the $1900 range is all new tooling and a brass hybrid. I'm sure that is part of it and I'm sure Lionel knows there is a demand for it.
Thanks guess I missed the brass hybrid description. Probably the only one to do that. Once I looked at the video, it was clear.
The $1900 for the Strasburg 2-10-0 is not really out of control for a limited run, quasi brass model. I am on the fence about buying one but I model 2 rail O and would have to convert it. I have wanted to see this model since I first rode behind the Mighty 90 in 1972! Decisions, decisions.....
Hey you guys. This hobby is now more expensive that golf. If you want to play, you got to pay. That's just the way it is. The prices "are what they are." They will only go higher.
Marx Tinplate anyone?
Mannyrock
@hclarke posted:Menards is really low-end stuff - not really competition for Lionel legacy items.
If executed properly, they could compete with the Lionel lionchief (not plus) entry level products. Their 40’ boxcars are nice enough, and their flatbed cars with trucks/cars/military loads are a great value. I would love to see a 50-60’ scale boxcar at around $30-$40 (with minimal detail like the 40’).
@gunrunnerjohn posted:If they were looking for my Threshold of Pain, they found it!
Same here John..
@shorling posted:Are the tariffs still in place and adding to the price increases ?
Yes they are, however...
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:
*Not including tariffs*Lionel's Legacy SD70MAC (2018): $599.99 - (2021): $649.99 - Using 8.2% inflation from 2018 to 2021 they should be ~$648.11
Lionel's Legacy SD45 (2018): $599.99 - (2021): $599.99 - Using 8.2% inflation from 2018 to 2021 they should be ~$648.11
Lionel's Legacy DD35A (2012): $599.99 - (2021): $699.99 - Using 18.3% inflation from 2012 to 2021 they should be ~$708.84
It is interesting is that other Lionel models do not appear to be impacted greatly by the tariffs
@Mannyrock posted:Hey you guys. This hobby is now more expensive that golf. If you want to play, you got to pay. That's just the way it is. The prices "are what they are." They will only go higher.
Marx Tinplate anyone?
More expensive than golf? I must be getting ripped off, please tell me where/when/why/how! 
I was gifted a Marx "Big Rail Work" set from a friend of the family and was very impressed with it, it's temped me to dip my toes into world of Marx train (mostly looking at Tinplate)
BUT, that might cause more harm than good: I'm running low on space, tolerance of the hobby from the powers that be (Annexation of sections of the basement that were supposed to be "off limits"), and I already collect Modern-O, Postwar, G, & N....
Bryce
If it is anywhere near complete, that Big Rail Work Train set is a far better value than just about anything on the current market.
Alright Folks:
I didn't want to do this, but the prices are getting too dang high. I understand they need to recoup the costs from buying the MTH tooling but some of these are a bit much for me.
Now, I will ignore the PS3 to Legacy/LC2.0 conversions (i.e. SW1, RS-27, Doodlebug, Bantam PRR Turbine, etc) since Lionel will need to recoup costs for R&D of putting their systems into ex-MTH tooling.
A few data points:
- MTH Bobber Caboose (2019 V1): $59.99 - Lionel Bobber Caboose (2022): $119.99 - Using 9.1% inflation from 2019 to 2022 they should be $65.42
- MTH Coil Cars (2020 V2): $69.95 - Lionel Coil Car (2022): - $119.99 - Using 9.1% inflation from 2020 to 2022 they should be $65.42
- MTH 64' Woodside 3-Car Set Price (2020 Vol 1): $289.95 - Lionel 64' Woodside 2-Car Set Price (2021): $399.99 - Lionel 64' Woodside 2-Car Set Price (2022): $449.99 - Using 6.81% inflation from 2021 to 2022 they should be $426.17
- Lionel Amtrak Amfleet 2-pack (2010): $139.99 - Lionel Amtrak Amfleet 2-pack (2010): $399.99 - Using 27.9% inflation from 2010 to 2022 they should be $178.99
- MTH Brewery (2012 RTR): $99.95 - Lionel Brewery (2022): $219.99 - Using 27.9% inflation from 2010 to 2022 they should be $121.37
- MTH Country Station Price (2017 RTR): $69.95 - Lionel Country Station (2021): $129.99 - Lionel Country Station (2022): #149.99 - Using 6.81% inflation from 2021 to 2022 they should be $138.84 [the difference is a bit more reasonable]
- MTH Fire Station (2019 RTR): $189.95 - Lionel Fire Station (2022): $329.99 - Using 9.1% inflation from 2019 to 2022 they should be $207.15
- MTH Barn Price (2019 RTR): $79.95 - Lionel Barn (2021)- $149.99 - Lionel Barn (2022): $179.99 - Using 6.81% inflation from 2021 to 2022 they should be $160.20 [the difference is a bit more reasonable]
- MTH Operating Transfer Station (2014 RTR): $199.99 - Lionel Operating Transfer Station (2022): $299.99 - Using 17.8% inflation from 2014 to 2022 they should be $235.48
- MTH Row House #2 w/ Christmas LED (2018 RTR): $64.95 - Lionel Row House #2 w/ Christmas LED (2022): $99.99 - Using 6.81% inflation from 2021 to 2022 they should be $64.95
- MTH Single Story Opposite Corner Store (2019 RTR): $69.95 - Lionel Single Story Opposite Corner Store (2022): $109.99 - Using 9.1% inflation from 2020 to 2022 they should be $65.42
Bryce
I'm not sure using average inflation rates is the best way to calculate what the price of these products should be. I am a contractor, and my cost for plastics and metals has doubled in the last couple of years. In some cases, they have more than doubled. World supply and demand of resources is out of balance in a very big way.
-Brian
I didn't read through all 5 pages, but I did notice the $400+ rocker launch accessory remake in the recent catalog.
And the point is? This is a hobby for discretionary spending. You choose to spend or not. The manufacturers are entitled to profit in a market system if we want them to stay in business.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Alright Folks:
I didn't want to do this, but the prices are getting too dang high. I understand they need to recoup the costs from buying the MTH tooling but some of these are a bit much for me.
Now, I will ignore the PS3 to Legacy/LC2.0 conversions (i.e. SW1, RS-27, Doodlebug, Bantam PRR Turbine, etc) since Lionel will need to recoup costs for R&D of putting their systems into ex-MTH tooling.
A few data points ...Bryce
Bryce,
You're preaching to the choir. We hear you.
My suggestion is to let Lionel know that they've miscalculated, and that they have a fatal marketing strategy as a result.
The rest of us will be waiting for:
- The reissued 2022 Vol 1 catalog that results when they realize that somehow a significant number of errors have crept into their spreadsheet unnoticed, or
- For them to declare bankruptcy
whichever comes first.
Neither will happen. This battle was over before it started.
Mike
@Valpac posted:I'm not sure using average inflation rates is the best way to calculate what the price of these products should be. I am a contractor, and my cost for plastics and metals has doubled in the last couple of years. In some cases, they have more than doubled. World supply and demand of resources is out of balance in a very big way.
-Brian
The answer is likely between Lionel recouping it’s tooling cost and charging way more than mth and the absolutely crazy economic situation we are in. It’s official, we are seeing lots of empty shelves around central md. Furthermore, the crazy amount of money created last year is showing that monetary decisions have consequences.
@Grampstrains posted:Once again we have the annual high price discussion. I've heard it every year since 1980.
Agreed. In fact I'm going to add ten years to your number. My ears go back to 1970.
The ten years between 1970 and 1980 had the most significant price increases, percentage-wise, in Lionel's history, primarily due to the extremely high inflation rates during that decade; higher than at present. LHS's and mail-order retailers raised prices monthly.
Consequently, instead of having the "look at these prices" discussion once a year it happened every month.
Somehow we survived.
Mike
Yeah, this discussion comes up a lot. There are a lot of factors here:
1)The CPI (the inflation rate) is only one number, it is kind of like the indices they use to show where the markets are (like the Dow Jones). CPI is designed to show the cost to a consumer of market basket items, foodstuffs, household goods. In theory it is a good broad indicator, because if the cost of cattle feed is soaring price of meat will, or if the cost of plastic soars then things like consumer goods will go up because they all use plastic, etc. And yes, if the cost of shipping goes nuts or the cost of chips becomes high, it will affect some of the prices in the market basket, but not others.
2)The cost of labor in china has gone up significantly, that plays into it, as has the cost of shipping. Suppliers and manufacturers have tried to eat this cost, but it is coming home to roost so to speak.
3)The cost of raw supplies have gone up a lot, the materials you use to make other things, and components like chips have soared because of imited supply and demand being high globally.
It is funny how perspective changes, what was once "outrageous" (do a search of the infinite discussions about train prices being too high), the 1200 dollar engine was 'outrageous', but compared to the 1900 buck one, it is 'not so outrageous" *smile*.
And it could also be that the people who own lionel these days (I think it is still Guggenheim), wanted higher margins, too.
As someone else said, it is what it is. Sadly, I think if people don't buy the product at these prices they likely will, instead of dropping prices, will simply discontinue making the high end engines and such (and no, I am not telling people to pay that kind of money for an engine, I can't afford that kind of money myself). I suspect these prices would have been like this even if we didn't have the current crazy inflation (and please, I beg of people, don't turn this into a political discussion, whatever the causes of the inflation, it is a reality) prices would have risen a lot, some of this was long term issues they tried to keep under control, some of it is broad based inflation at work, prices were already shooting up before inflation started roaring across the board.
@Valpac posted:I'm not sure using average inflation rates is the best way to calculate what the price of these products should be. I am a contractor, and my cost for plastics and metals has doubled in the last couple of years. In some cases, they have more than doubled. World supply and demand of resources is out of balance in a very big way.
-Brian
Brian,
I work in the electronics/additive manufacturing field I will agree with you that prices have gone up on a lot of things. My counter to this is that some Lionel products follow the inflationary trend and some are below the inflationary trend. Assuming that costs of plastic and metals will impact all products from Lionel, how come the below do not buck the trend? Just my two cents
- Legacy ES44AC (2015 Signature): $649.99 - Legacy ES44AC (2022): $699.99 - Using 17.6% inflation from 2015 to 2022 they should be $764.58
- Legacy F40PH (2016 Signature): $549.99 - Legacy F40PH (2022): $629.99 - Using 16.2% inflation from 2015 to 2022 they should be $638.89
- Legacy Berkshire (2012 Signature): $1299.99 - Legacy 2-10-4 (2022): $1599.99 - Using 21.4% inflation from 2012 to 2022 they should be $1517.90
- Legacy SD40-2 (2013 Signature): $529.99 - Legacy SD40-2 (2013 Signature): $649.99 - Using 19.7% inflation from 2013 to 2022 they should be $634.29 (note the 2022 has more details)
All,
I completely get it; we always hear that train prices are going up. It is the law of supply and demand. Supplies are low and demand is high so Lionel can charge what they want for products. We do not have to buy them, but we can if we want to. Yes, I am complaining since no one likes paying higher prices and yes, I do realize that this period has major strain on the global supply system and inflation is rampant. The main purpose for me posting is to show that some products buck the overall trend and are going for higher prices in comparison to others. This is how I personally decide on whether a new engine is a good, meh, or bad price (unless I really want it and all logic gets thrown out the window).
Ex: the F40PHs is a "better" deal since that is under the inflationary trend.
On the topic of the rocket booster train, I purposely left that out of my post since Lionel has added lots more details/improvements to the booster cars.
To reiterate what @bigkid said, it is what it is.
Bryce
Lionel, or any other company does not arbitrarily set prices higher or whatever. The return on investment they aim for does not change radically. It may change due to owners borrowing a bunch of money and needing more revenue to cover their interest on the loans to fund new facilities. But basically they have a profit target that stays pretty much the same. And profit is not a dirty word. Whether still working or retired, you do not work for nothing, you should expect a company to. Profit is what the company gets for doing this stuff for you.
Prices are dictated by what it costs to Design, make, and deliver the product. Right now with the inflation there are two issues. First the cost of all the materials and labor is going up And since nearly all this stuff is made overseas, the value of the dollar dropping causes prices to rise. It is a double hit.
consider if (and I don't know the exchange rate), the dollar used to be worth 20 yen in China. Now with lots more dollars floating around without any more productivity supporting them, you may only get 15 yen for you dollar. If you are a mfg in China, you pay your suppliers in and workers in yen not dollars. So if you can only get 15 yen now for the dollars that Lionel or whoever pays you, you need to get many more dollars just to get the same amount of yen to run your business.
Quoting 2019 and earlier MTH prices from before the pandemic and the ensuing huge increases in raw material costs, labor costs and shipping costs is simply not relevant for products to be delivered in late 2022. No one knows what increases will occur in the next 6-12 months either. Even the Fed 
.
There is no way of making any adjustment to the MTH pricing, such as calculating the percent increase in the cost of cream cheese or prunes. Likewise, the doubling or tripling of shipping costs cannot be extrapolated to final product costs. You are wasting your time making these comparisons is my thought. Indeed, Atlas prices on MTH products are significantly higher and that was before the you know what hit the fan.
Only Lionel knows their projected costs on these still to be delivered products, and the likelihood that they are trying intentionally to harm their customers seems totally implausible. They are making products and trying to make a reasonable profit while paying their staff reasonable salaries until proven otherwise.
@Landsteiner posted:Quoting 2019 and earlier MTH prices from before the pandemic and huge increases in raw material costs, labor costs and shipping costs is simply not relevant for products to be delivered in late 2022. There is no way of making any adjustment, such as calculating the percent increase in the cost of cream cheese or prunes. Likewise, the doubling or tripling of shipping costs cannot be extrapolated to final product costs. You are wasting your time making this comparisons is my thought.
That’s right, none of us know anything about how the prices in the new Lionel catalog are determined. No point in complaining. If you don’t like the price, don’t buy it. There is a lot good stuff in the catalog, perhaps more conversation about what people like or what they are going to order what make for a more enjoyable thread.
Even still, ignoring the price increase/decrease over the past few years, when compared to other manufacturers in the hobby, Lionel is a considerable bit more costly. Maybe they are paying higher costs for labor, storage, raw materials, shipping, advertising etc. and that is what drives their cost up. It would be agreeable that these costs are similar to each of the competitors, why would you pay more for the same raw materials than everyone else?
@prrjim posted:Prices are dictated by what it costs to Design, make, and deliver the product. Right now with the inflation there are two issues. First the cost of all the materials and labor is going up And since nearly all this stuff is made overseas, the value of the dollar dropping causes prices to rise. It is a double hit.
Microeconomics teaches that this is true only in a fully competitive market. In a market with less competition, price is set in part by consumer demand.
I think it's really straightforward. Lionel can charge a higher price for ex-MTH items because:
- Competition has been significantly reduced by MTH's exit, so Lionel (and other manufacturers) face less price competition.
- The "Lionel" brand has great value, primarily due to its history. Many consumers would pay a higher price for the exact same item with the "Lionel" name on it than they would pay if it had the "MTH" name on it.
Lionel, like any other enterprise, will set prices at a level to maximize their profit and that is what is happening here.
Another 5 page thread about Lionel's "high prices". Didn't see that coming
The bottom line is that none us know all of the factors that went into determining Lionel's prices. Buying is a personal decision. If Lionel has priced something too high for you, you have the right to decide not to buy it. No one is wrong for making that choice. HOWEVER, just because Lionel's prices are YOUR problem does not mean that Lionel's "high prices" are everyone else's problem nor do you need to create thread after thread trying to make it everyone else's problem.
What would be the point? Lionel isn't going to change the price because you complain about it on OGR. Lionel isn't going to set prices in the next catalog because you complained about it on OGR.
Just a thought here, but low prices are not necessarily a good thing for the hobby. Perhaps if K Line priced their products a bit higher they would still be here. Perhaps if MTH had priced their trains higher they would still be here. Lionel is under no obligation to go out of business so you can pay $150 less for a Legacy locomotive (or whatever price/product you want to think of).
If it's priced to high for you, don't buy it.
Is there any truth to Wikipedia saying that Lionel moved a lot of manufacturing to Vietnam? If so, that may also be a factor.
@Rail Dude posted:Even still, ignoring the price increase/decrease over the past few years, when compared to other manufacturers in the hobby, Lionel is a considerable bit more costly. Maybe they are paying higher costs for labor, storage, raw materials, shipping, advertising etc. and that is what drives their cost up. It would be agreeable that these costs are similar to each of the competitors, why would you pay more for the same raw materials than everyone else?
Because its "Lionel" and you are paying for name-brand Americana.
@prrjim posted:Lionel, or any other company does not arbitrarily set prices higher or whatever. The return on investment they aim for does not change radically. It may change due to owners borrowing a bunch of money and needing more revenue to cover their interest on the loans to fund new facilities. But basically they have a profit target that stays pretty much the same. And profit is not a dirty word. Whether still working or retired, you do not work for nothing, you should expect a company to. Profit is what the company gets for doing this stuff for you.
Prices are dictated by what it costs to Design, make, and deliver the product. Right now with the inflation there are two issues. First the cost of all the materials and labor is going up And since nearly all this stuff is made overseas, the value of the dollar dropping causes prices to rise. It is a double hit.
consider if (and I don't know the exchange rate), the dollar used to be worth 20 yen in China. Now with lots more dollars floating around without any more productivity supporting them, you may only get 15 yen for you dollar. If you are a mfg in China, you pay your suppliers in and workers in yen not dollars. So if you can only get 15 yen now for the dollars that Lionel or whoever pays you, you need to get many more dollars just to get the same amount of yen to run your business.
Thank you for explaining basic economic principals to me. ROI is of course influenced by the cost of goods and labor within that marketplace. But ROI does not have to be constant, for example: the outlay of a large capital investment may dramatically change ROI. In addition, corporate greed (i.e what the company officers make beyond the ROI given to stockholders and relayed to stock analysis folks) also plays a factor. It seems to me, that the maximization of profit has come into play given Lionel has resumed a dominant place in the market given the demise of MTH. On the topic of paying more, when Lionel closed up shop in the US and moved to China, the owner of my LHS asked them if they will keep the same % profit margin (cutting prices) and was told "no." The whole move was so they can vastly increase their profit.
I believe you are talking about the Chinese Yuan (Japan uses the Yen). 20 years ago, 1 USD was 8.2748 Yuan (Jan 2001). Today it is 1USD to 6.37284 Yuan. USDCNY 6.3525 ▲ +0.07% (tradingview.com)
Caveat emptor.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Alright Folks:
I didn't want to do this, but the prices are getting too dang high. I understand they need to recoup the costs from buying the MTH tooling but some of these are a bit much for me.
You seem to be overlooking packaging and marketing increases. "Lionel" has twice the number of letters that "MTH" does...
If you feel the big bad company is evil and taking advantage of you, the age old solution still works, don't buy their product.
@Madockawando posted:Another 5 page thread about Lionel's "high prices". Didn't see that coming
The bottom line is that none us know all of the factors that went into determining Lionel's prices. Buying is a personal decision. If Lionel has priced something too high for you, you have the right to decide not to buy it. No one is wrong for making that choice. HOWEVER, just because Lionel's prices are YOUR problem does not mean that Lionel's "high prices" are everyone else's problem nor do you need to create thread after thread trying to make it everyone else's problem.
What would be the point? Lionel isn't going to change the price because you complain about it on OGR. Lionel isn't going to set prices in the next catalog because you complained about it on OGR.
Just a thought here, but low prices are not necessarily a good thing for the hobby. Perhaps if K Line priced their products a bit higher they would still be here. Perhaps if MTH had priced their trains higher they would still be here. Lionel is under no obligation to go out of business so you can pay $150 less for a Legacy locomotive (or whatever price/product you want to think of).
If it's priced to high for you, don't buy it.
Whether I have money or do not have money is not the point (but for your personal knowledge I do 
). The issue is excessive prices for a limited, voluntary, competitive market (contrary to popular belief, model trains are not basic necessities even though we all tend to think so ). Would you voluntarily pay more for something that you know is yielding a reasonable profit to a company where that extra price is you purely giving them extra profit? If yes, enjoy the fact that prices will continue to rise to the point where you might even say this isn't right.
This thread is from 2021, unlike others who create multiple threads I kept it to one. I merely pointed out prices. I did not make this your problem, YOU made it your problem is clicking on this thread and commenting.
Do high prices yield a profitable and successful business as a result? You used K-line as an example, I don't think K-line's prices had anything to do with their demise: Lawsuit derails Hillsborough model train maker - Triangle Business Journal (bizjournals.com) . That is insane to suggest I am asking Lionel to go out of business so I can "pay $150 less for a Legacy locomotive." If Lionel's profit margins are really that close to their list prices, then they do need to increase profits to stay in business but maybe then they ought to rigorously review their business and manufacturing processes via Lean-six sigma. If this is not the case, Lean-six sigma will not help greed.
As an inherent part of Lean-six sigma, there is a factor called "voice of the customer." Business that do not listen to the "voice of the customer" usually go out of business in the long run. While O-scale model railroading as a hobby, is a passion of mine, I do not think the percentage of children into trains is the same percentage of children when our grandparents were children.
Pardon me for being non-responsive over the next two hours, I need to get the salt off my Jag.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Whether I have money or do not have money is not the point (but for your personal knowledge I do
This thread is from 2021, unlike others who create multiple threads I kept it to one. I merely pointed out prices. I did not make this your problem, YOU made it your problem is clicking on this thread and commenting.
Do high prices yield a profitable and successful business as a result? You used K-line as an example, I don't think K-line's prices had anything to do with their demise: Lawsuit derails Hillsborough model train maker - Triangle Business Journal (bizjournals.com) . That is insane to suggest I am asking Lionel to go out of business so I can "pay $150 less for a Legacy locomotive." If Lionel's profit margins are really that close to their list prices, then they do need to increase profits to stay in business but maybe then they ought to rigorously review their business and manufacturing processes via Lean-six sigma. If this is not the case, Lean-six sigma will not help greed.
As an inherent part of Lean-six sigma, there is a factor called "voice of the customer." Business that do not listen to the "voice of the customer" usually go out of business in the long run. While O-scale model railroading as a hobby, is a passion of mine, I do not think the percentage of children into trains is the same percentage of children when our grandparents were children.
Pardon me for being non-responsive over the next two hours, I need to get the salt off my Jag.
No, it’s still not my problem 😉. But thanks for trying to make it everyone else’s problem. If you have the money for the product and you want it, what is the issue? No one here is going to influence Lionel’s prices by complaining about here on OGR.
And I will reiterate, low prices are not necessarily good for the hobby either. Low prices didn’t keep K Line around and low prices didn’t keep the old MTH around either. Everyone should buy what they want. If you can’t afford to buy what you want it’s not everyone else’s problem to fix for you.
Yawn.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Because its "Lionel" and you are paying for name-brand Americana.
Thank you for explaining basic economic principals to me. ROI is of course influenced by the cost of goods and labor within that marketplace. But ROI does not have to be constant, for example: the outlay of a large capital investment may dramatically change ROI. In addition, corporate greed (i.e what the company officers make beyond the ROI given to stockholders and relayed to stock analysis folks) also plays a factor. It seems to me, that the maximization of profit has come into play given Lionel has resumed a dominant place in the market given the demise of MTH. On the topic of paying more, when Lionel closed up shop in the US and moved to China, the owner of my LHS asked them if they will keep the same % profit margin (cutting prices) and was told "no." The whole move was so they can vastly increase their profit.
I believe you are talking about the Chinese Yuan (Japan uses the Yen). 20 years ago, 1 USD was 8.2748 Yuan (Jan 2001). Today it is 1USD to 6.37284 Yuan. USDCNY 6.3525 ▲ +0.07% (tradingview.com)
Caveat emptor.
One comment on the Yuan-Dollar exchange rate. 20 years ago China was still setting the price of the Yuan, the conversion rate, and it was kept low for obvious reasons. The Yuan/Dollar exchange rate last I checked hasn't changed much recently. Inflation is a real thing, but the cost increases you are seeing are global inflation, it is hitting everyone including the Chinese because of restrictions in supply and increased demand, plus the incredible increase in the costs of shipping. Again, this isn't affecting just the US, it is affecting everyone (people like to pretend the US is a bubble into ourselves, we aren't). The cost of raw materials is established on trading markets, the cost of steel and pig iron and aluminum and rare earths is based on how traders see supply and demand, same with natural gas, oil, etc.
Other reasons for Lionel price increases could be tariffs on China goods, the fact that China is not to fond of us because we tried to destroy their leading telcom company and south east Asia is not too fond of us either because we pulled out of the trade deal.
Perhaps Mike Wolf was such a skilled negotiator that he got Lionel to pay more than what was reasonable for his tooling? Does anyone know if he has recently bought a more expensive car, house or purebred race horse?
(The above nonsense is meant strictly for the purposes of humor rather than a serious explanation of the pricing structure of former MTH products. If they are indeed overpriced, Lionel sales of said products will be pathetic, and the tooling will be sold for scrap value or the MSRP lowered, is my guess.)
Guys Lionel trains are not necessities to live, they are luxury items. If you can't afford a locomotive you want in the new catalog it may be overpriced to you, but not everyone. Just because you can't afford a luxury item doesn't mean the manufacture should lower the price so YOU can afford it. Model trains don't feed you or provide a roof over your head, they are just things you spend money on if you have extra money. Would I like a Vison Line 2-10-10-2? Yeah kinda. Do I have $2000 to spend on it? No. So I don't buy it.
I want a Jaguar F-Type R. I can't afford a Jaguar F-Type R unless it costs about as much as a loaded Honda Accord. Therefore I don't buy it new. But I don't complain to everyone that Jaguar is ripping everyone off buy charging a lot of money for a car I can't afford.
If you're complaining a new 6464 style boxcar is too much just buy one second had. There are thousands of them to be had for less then $20. You don't have to buy everything brand new.
@Lou1985 posted:Guys Lionel trains are not necessities to live, they are luxury items. If you can't afford a locomotive you want in the new catalog it may be overpriced to you, but not everyone. Just because you can't afford a luxury item doesn't mean the manufacture should lower the price so YOU can afford it. Model trains don't feed you or provide a roof over your head, they are just things you spend money on if you have extra money. Would I like a Vison Line 2-10-10-2? Yeah kinda. Do I have $2000 to spend on it? No. So I don't buy it.
I want a Jaguar F-Type R. I can't afford a Jaguar F-Type R unless it costs about as much as a loaded Honda Accord. Therefore I don't buy it new. But I don't complain to everyone that Jaguar is ripping everyone off buy charging a lot of money for a car I can't afford.
If you're complaining a new 6464 style boxcar is too much just buy one second had. There are thousands of them to be had for less then $20. You don't have to buy everything brand new.
I completely agree that model trains are luxury items, and I am grateful that I can afford what I want in the catalogs even if I disagree with pricing (unless I really want it and all logic gets thrown out the window as previously stated).
575p? Excellent taste, but I would kill myself. I'll stick with my 300p.
Buying used is always an excellent way to give trains a good home
@Landsteiner posted:Perhaps Mike Wolf was such a skilled negotiator that he got Lionel to pay more than what was reasonable for his tooling? Does anyone know if he has recently bought a more expensive car, house or purebred race horse?
The above nonsense is meant strictly for the purposes of humor rather than a serious explanation of the pricing structure of former MTH products. If they are indeed overpriced, Lionel sales of said products will be pathetic, and the tooling will be sold for scrap value or the MSRP lowered, is my guess.)
Maybe that is how they came up with the Vision line Horse cars! 
Bryce
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:I completely agree that model trains are luxury items, and I am grateful that I can afford what I want in the catalogs even if I disagree with pricing (unless I really want it and all logic gets thrown out the window as previously stated).
575p? Excellent taste, but I would kill myself. I'll stick with my 300p.
Buying used is always an excellent way to give trains a good homeMaybe that is how they came up with the Vision line Horse cars!
Bryce
So you brag about owning a Jag and you brag that you can afford "what you want" in the catalogs. Yet, YOU start a thread complaining about Lionel's prices!!! Talk about grandstanding! LoL
If you can afford it, but you aren't going to buy it, it's because you don't want it... NOT because it's priced wrong!!
@Madockawando posted:So you brag about owning a Jag and you brag that you can afford "what you want" in the catalogs. Yet, YOU start a thread complaining about Lionel's prices!!! Talk about grandstanding! LoL
If you can afford it, but you aren't going to buy it, it's because you don't want it... NOT because it's priced wrong!!
Sorry I care about other people in the hobby who aren't as fortunate as myself?
@Madockawando posted:So you brag about owning a Jag and you brag that you can afford "what you want" in the catalogs. Yet, YOU start a thread complaining about Lionel's prices!!! Talk about grandstanding! LoL
If you can afford it, but you aren't going to buy it, it's because you don't want it... NOT because it's priced wrong!!
That's not correct. There are a lot of things that I can afford, and that I want, but I don't purchase them because I feel they're priced too high. If enough people do that, the company goes out of business. Not everyone buys everything that they want and can afford. If the perceived value isn't there, it's a problem.
@Oscale_Trains_Lover_ posted:Sorry I care about other people in the hobby who aren't as fortunate as myself?
Sharing analytics is always helpful and appreciated. Containers to ship anything has gone crazy high in increases and all industries have experienced this.
On the positive side, reading this post makes me feel good about the amount of money I've spent on the hobby over the past 2+ years. All of the of that lockdown crazy Covid spending now looks like we might have been able to grab some bargains before these increases. MTH's announced closing and the resulting panic buying had me worried I went too far. Not now.
I'm glad Lionel, Atlas and smaller MTH are still making great products, though. Higher prices may soften the demand, but if their margins still work, then we'll all be fine. Lionel's new catalog reminds me of MTH's old ones -- tons of stuff and fun to look at and buy if you find anything that is a must have and you can afford.
