Williams 773 jackrabbit

What are you using for a power supply?  Old Lionel?  They have starting voltages around 8 volts.  Fairly certain the Williams 773 is a can motor.  You need something with a throttle that starts at zero.

Fred

Lionel zw-c...also use old zw...response is the same...

I had 2 of these (there was a sale, years ago...) and was so unhappy with the performance that I sold one and converted the other to an ERR Cruise Commander; I also detailed and weathered it.

The problem is the poor zoom-zoom gearing; worse than most PW locos, even. You can't change it in any practical sense.

It runs well; the cruise control calms it right down. Now, it isn't one of these "2 scale MPH" locos, but I have plenty of those and it's a Hudson, not a switcher. You do not have to use command control (TMCC) to do this conversion, so far as I know; not sure, as I don't run anything conventionally. But, the cruise motherboard should work whether in a command or non-command environment.

Go to ERR's website and look around; call them - I believe they could answer your questions.

I've posted this photo before of this loco; with the ERR innards and my details/weathering, it has gone from a real dog to one of my favorites.

(This was not the "773" version; this loco has the larger scale tender and came with the wrong "5XXX" number; I renumbered it, too.)

I see all kinds of niceness there!!

I'm not a rivet counter or a super artist although I absolutely approve of what you got there...I would like to have this engine run reasonably well alongside my lionels and mths..

I've heard of guys using the err to get these under control...was just hoping not to spend quite that much...considering these Williams locos are cheap and I would have almost as much in an err upgrade as what I paid for the engine. 

Still...these are solid engines for not much over a hundred bucks used...and I have several for that reason...that maybe the upgrade would be worth it in the long run...

Thanks for the advice!

I agree with D500.  I have no idea why they came from the factory geared for 200 scale mph.  No easy way to change the gear ratio, but I can confirm that, although expensive, ERR works great as a conventional electronic E-unit.  Good luck, but if you want a silk purse it's better to start with silk than a sow's ear.  My $.02.

No problem...I got silk AND pork...just looking for the right sauce for the sausage

My personal fave is PS-2...but I like them all...kind of an addiction...

There's a circuit you can build cheap that's been described here in the past that adds some more load (electricaly) to the motor to slow it down. Diodes and a rectifier or something. Try a search.

I will emphasize what Artyoung says. I forget the fellow's name (Dale?)- he passed away a couple of years ago - he showed how and where to add diodes to the wiring in an engine to reduce the start speed. I did it - so can you - you don't need to be an electronics genius to do so. Simple soldering skills are all that is required. And very inexpensive to boot!

I did it to my Williams ten-wheeler. I run conventional with a post-war ZW, which puts about six volts on the track at it's lowest setting. The ten-wheeler starts from a dead stop at a crawl, then will top out around 50 smph. At 6.25 track voltage it runs at 4.5smph. Prior to adding the diodes it was a typical Williams jack rabbit.

Do try to find that past post - search under diodes? And maybe someone here copied his instructions and will share them.

That would have been Dale Manquen.  He was a tremendous resource to the hobby.  You can search back through his posts to find the solution to jackrabbit starts.

I use current inrush limiters. They are a negative temperature coefficient thermistor that has some resistance at ambient temperature which goes towards zero resistance as the current through them heats them up. Here is one in a Williams 671 Turbine. Its a CL-160 available from Digikey and others for small money. Big advantage over diodes or fixed resistors it only affects starting speed. Top speed is virtually the same.

I have paced this engine along side an MTH engine and it will run down to 3 scale MPH.

Pete

Pete, I'm not an electronics guru but I like this idea.  At $1.23 (as long as you are buying other things) it sounds like a cheap fix.  Is the limiter in line with a motor lead or across the leads?

It looks like it is in line but if Pete could clarify that would be great.  I have a locomotive I would like to try this with as well.

I have the same engine pulling about 12 Menards cars.  I'm using a Post War Celebration ZW and control the track voltage using my Legacy remote.  Engine starts and stops great.  No issues at all.  That's my fix.  BigRail

The thermistor is wired in series with the motor. Easy peasey. I should add to get the 3 MPH speed the engine was run with a 1033 transformer which starts at zero volts (B-U). You should be able to get the same performance with any transformer that starts at zero like a Z4000.

One reason Williams engines jump is due to the relays used for reversing. The relay contacts don't close until track voltage reaches around 4 volts so even with a transformer that starts at zero the engine will still jump at start. The thermistor reduces that effect.

Pete

Is that part power rating sufficient for heavy motor loads?

Has anyone tried a different motor? One with much lower speed range. Mount and shaft diameter will most likely be the same. 

gibson man posted:

Is that part power rating sufficient for heavy motor loads?

Its actually higher than ideal. Ideally the resistance would be zero at maximum current rating. For the CL-160 that is 2.4 amps which is the stall current for that motor. In normal running these rarely draw over 2 amps so there will be some small resistance in series with the motor.

They are supposed to get warm. Thats how they work. 

For more info google "Current Inrush Limiters".

Pete

Norton posted:

One reason Williams engines jump is due to the relays used for reversing. The relay contacts don't close until track voltage reaches around 4 volts so even with a transformer that starts at zero the engine will still jump at start.

This is exactly the problem with the Williams. On dual motored diesels, this is easy to hide/fix/address by wiring the motors in series. If you feel this is taking too much top end speed off, then the rocket-start probably doesn't bother you either.

One solution is to swap out the Williams reverse unit with a fully solid state one like the Lionel 103-1 or the K-Line equivalent.

kW transformers have 0-14 volt capability. Curious how it would run with that.

petrifiedagg posted:

kW transformers have 0-14 volt capability. Curious how it would run with that.

Norton posted:

One reason Williams engines jump is due to the relays used for reversing. The relay contacts don't close until track voltage reaches around 4 volts so even with a transformer that starts at zero the engine will still jump at start. The thermistor reduces that effect.