Wiring K line or RMT switches

Neutral, throw one way, throw the other. The bridge piece is inserted if you want to use track power to throw the switches. If you are using an external power source for the switch machines, then you would connect that power source and disconnect the bridge. You also need to connect the external source ground to the neutral post.

Ok the metal bridge is not connected for external power, swing it open or remove.

Being that the 5 posts are not clearly labeled can someone please walk me through this.  Three wires from the controler go to which posts (ie switch standing vertical start those wires from bottom lug or start from top lug ?) and the other two are one hot wire and then the other is ground wire? Specificallywhere to set?

I remember the PW Lionel application was 3 wires on the the switch machine from the controler and one hot wire to the side plug.

I would like to also know what a safe recommended AC voltage for these.

I power with a PW ZW.

Thank you.

Leroof

Attached is a PDF of the K-Line switch manual for the O27 K-0265 & K-0266 remote switches. I would assume the wiring is the same for the Super Snap switches. The three posts closest to the switch motor housing are the three posts for the wires to the controllers. The next one over is for external power or can be connected with the bridge to the furthest-away post for track power.

There are two slight variations in those models. One version came in a red & black box & the switch motor housing was brown plastic, like the rest of the switch. The ground is the closest  post to the motor housing (there's a "GR" marked in the plastic at the base of the post), but the middle wire of the three coming from the controller. The other two wires from the controller are attached to the two posts to the right of the ground post.

The other (newer?) version came in a yellow & black box & the switch motor housing was black plastic, in contrast to the brown plastic of the rest of the switch. On this, the ground post is the middle of the three posts closest to the motor housing. Again, "GR" is marked in the plastic at the base of the ground post. The other two controller wires go to the posts on either side of the ground post (so, unlike the variation above, you don't have to cross any wires over). Also one of the wires from the controller has three white dashes at the end of it, which corresponds to the post with three white dashes marked at the base of the post.

I could be wrong, but I thought that you needed the K-Line controller for that specific switch in order for it to work properly. This means that the right & left controllers are not interchangeable.

I hope this is all clear & helpful.

—Matt

Don't use Lionel switch controls with K-Line switches! K-Line switches are very sensitive to their own brand of switch controls, for example a right hand K-Line switch should have the control for a right hand K-Line switch, don't mix and match controls from K-Line either.

Lee Fritz

Thank you Matt for the specific info and Attatchment. I will book mark this.

Thanks Lee for the heads up on not mix and matching. I did Not want to burn them out or damage them.

I guess I will either have to find specific K controllers before setting out on this mission.

These k line super snap or super K are non derailing as well ?

Does the" Z stuff "controllers work for this modern switch motor?

Starting to get brave now!

Leroof

Leroof posted:

Thank you Matt for the specific info and Attatchment. I will book mark this.

Thanks Lee for the heads up on not mix and matching. I did Not want to burn them out or damage them.

I guess I will either have to find specific K controllers before setting out on this mission.

These k line super snap or super K are non derailing as well ?

Does the" Z stuff "controllers work for this modern switch motor?

Starting to get brave now!

Leroof

You forgot what I mentioned about the K-Line switches! If you use DZ Industry switch controls there is no guaranty they will work correctly.

Lee Fritz

Lee, No I did not forget what you said!

Thanks for responding. I need this kind of helpful direct info.

That was an additional alternative question.

OK Lee. I will look for specific right or left K line switch model appropriate controllers. I would like to see them work. All good.

I just like to hear what others experience might suggest.

Additionally to this topic, Anyone have access Or a source  for the specific control machines for the k line 031 right or left  Non derailing tubular super snap switches? Thank you.

Leroof

I believe that Brasseur Electric Trains has the controllers you want:

http://www.brasseurelectrictra...vice/kline/kline.php

Part number: K-0093RH & K-0093LH

Thanks Matt. That helps quite a bit!

Expensive  creatures and very limited in number....but specifically applied.

Great!  Have a good week everyone.

Hi Lee and Matt,

I'd like to add a bit more information on this issue.  First want to add my confirmation that the controllers for classical Lionel 022 switches will NOT work with the new releases of the O Line Reproductions of the RMT switches (the ones in the yellow and black boxes: ORL 604 and 605 for RH and LH O31 switches, respectively).  Not only are these controllers specific for left and right switches, they also have a small circuit board in each of them.  I learned this by troubleshooting a problem I had with one of my new switches that was chattering when thrown in the straight position from the turnout. After playing with several options, I realized the controller, not the switch, was malfunctioning.  I contacted the vendor, Pats Trains, and was told that the supplier, Heartland Hobby Wholesale, will replace the switch controller provided I forward the malfunctioning unit with a copy of my receipt. Will do this.  Great to know the controllers are also available from Brasseur Electric Trains. 

Always enjoy the advice from this forum.

Thanks,

Michael

Other information to add: I picked a half dozen of the K-0265/6 switches earlier this year that appeared to be unused. Two of them had bad diodes on the switch controller circuit boards, however, I was able to inexpensively replace them with relative ease, and I'm a relatively inexperienced hack when it comes to wiring & soldering. The lesson: if the switches don't work even with the right controllers, consider identifying the problem & repairing before you toss or return them.

Leroof posted:

Lee, No I did not forget what you said!

Thanks for responding. I need this kind of helpful direct info.

That was an additional alternative question.

OK Lee. I will look for specific right or left K line switch model appropriate controllers. I would like to see them work. All good.

I just like to hear what others experience might suggest.

I don't mean to seem harsh or overly critical but how else can I tell you that the K-Line switch controls are extremely sensitive(no substitutes) to the switch they are supposed to work with. There is something about K-Line switches(internal circuit boards?) and their controls that will leave you scratching your head if you try to use other controls with K-Line.

Lee Fritz

I think that the information has poured in about what you emphatically reported in an original statement. Absolutely no harshness taken Lee.

NO Substitutes, gotcha.

Now one of the reasons I asked after your statement is that Z stuff claimed that K line (may have)ripped off their switch motor and or controller technology....I dont know but i am curious about the similarities if any. I am just trying to gather information to employ the switches safely. I realize that there are a lot of similar modern technologies and sometimes there is a lot of controversy with equipment made without good quality control. It is very interesting to me that diodes (plentiful and cheap) might be some of the solutions for faulty controllers. 

This is why this forum is so helpful. The world of experience as  shared is a most valuable communication.

Leroof

Has anyone tried the supersnap switches with an MTH AIU? Does it work? Any problems?

Well it looks as if this thread through my original question has grown a bit.

While on  the subject of switch control with K line super snap I pose this related question.

Has anyone tested reliability of these switches with track power driven non derailing capability? At $20 each (and a rarity!)  for  this K-0093 RH or K-0093 LH controllers may not prove feasible to "remote" switch on main lines. As far as switching siding maybe a few controlers might be helpful. Any ideas on this? 

Might anyone know at what minimum  voltage this self (without controller) non derailing feature functions reasonably well? 

I know that the Lionel 022 were best used with controllers but these K lines supersnap switches are very different modern  animals so it seems.

Thanks.

Leroof

I guess the "switch electrical laboratory" here will be doing some experimentation and non derailing research! Will try and make report evident with success or miserable failure! Wish me luck. I may have time this week.

Again any experienced observations on Non derailing track powered super snap K line switches most  welcomed. 

Thanks.

Leroof

Leroof, I have a lot of these switches on my layout. The KLine controllers are labelled right and left and must be matched to the switch. I have replaced most of the KLine controllers with Z Stuff DZ 1002 push button controllers and these work fine.

Ed Kazarian

hi Ed. Z stuff DZ 1002 push buttons are universal for RH and K line switches? are relays or anything like that necessary for operation?

also, have you used the super snaps with track power rather than external power? anyone else?

thank you.

leroof

I bought several of the first run of K-Line O72 switches, then bought some more from a forum member. The metal bar connects center rail to switch power; you would remove it if you want to run fixed voltage. The fixed voltage plug of some Lionel switches would push a contact out of the way, for this switch, you have to do it. So one connector is center rail, and the other "mechanism power". If in doubt and you have a VOM, remove the strip and ohm it out.

For the other three contacts, one is connected to outer rail, one is connected to the insulated section on the straight path, and the last on the insulated section of the curved path. Then wires of the insulated sections go into the mechanism for the non-derailing feature, and these two wires go out to the controller. So the controller is just like you rolling a truck over the non-derailing feature, connecting one or the other to outer rail (or 'ground' if you prefer).

The control mechanism and the K-Line switch controllers have diodes and LEDs so that the correct LED comes on, and still works when operated off of AC voltage. As I recall, that is why the controllers are handed. If you use something like an SC2, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff.

I have seen poor connections for each of the four posts (5 minus 1 to the mechanism) to their respective rails. If you flip it over and look, you will see brass strips embedded in the plastic, and then a small screw that is supposed to touch or pierce the rail. I have have to resort to soldering a jumper wire at times.

I have also seen poor connections between the center rails. I soldered a piece of 14 gauge wire between all three, and weave it among the ties.

I have found that I have to cover one of the moving rails with tape. The person I bought the switch from was more clever than I am, he used clear tape. Something happens with engines with wide center rollers, but I can't remember exactly what it was. I just remember seeing arc marks on the backs of outside engine wheels and finally figuring it out. This is O72, I don't know about O31.

I have used some of the switches with track power and most with a separate power source ( Z 1000 brick ). You have to connect the ground of the brick to the ground of the other transformer going to the rest of the track. The DZ buttons work great. Sometimes I have had to reverse the LEDs on the controller to match up with the LEDs on the switch. That is a one minute project.

Ed

The switches operate fine when the insulated (non-derailing) rails are shorted to the ground rail, so a momentary contact switch should be fine as a substitute controller.  The LEDs on the controller and switch rely on "handed" components and polarity of the DC current between the switch and controller - look on the underside of the K-Line controller for the RH or LH mark. 

Other problems you have to deal with tuning up a K-Line switch (and other brands of switches):

The center power rails are connected with a brass strip visible on the underside which are inserted into the cast center rail parts.  The adjacent black rail has uncertain contact to the center rail casting, so will have poor or no power as the parts loosen with running.  This will manifest itself on switches having an insulating pin at the end of the center rail.  Adding power feed wires as Michael states solves that problem.

The frog should have an air gap with the outer rails within the switch or sparking will occur.  On the early K-line switches, the RH models all suffered from no air gap and I disassembled the rails and ground the ends to create an air gap.  Black electrical tap over the top of the rail solves that problem with much less work.  I now cover the rail from the frog to halfway down the point rails to address wide roller sparking.

Many of my K-Line switches motors are now suffering from poor operation of the internal limit switch that results in switch motors running until the switch point is pushed home, or not operating at all.  Since the motor is part of the plastic tie base, maintenance of the motor requires removal of the switch.  A pending project is cutting the switch motor free of the plastic ties and using a Z-stuff switch to throw the points.  Has anyone on the forum successfully re-motored a K-Line?

John

Hi all,

Here's a bit more info on the switches.  Note I have the recent OLR versions (both 031 and 072), but they are apparently quite similar (identical?) to the K-Line version. 

As to track power, I just tested the non-derailing feature on these switches on track power and they work fine down to 9 volts, or even 8 volts.  They worked at 6 volts, but not always complete movement.  I would recommend 10-12v for crisp action.

As to the shorting issues, I experienced the same.  Used black electrical tape on one unit as the rails on my units are black. 

I would also add that contacts are finicky on these units.  Had to modify the connections to classic Lionel tubular track, so must be careful to avoid contact where not wanted and provide contact where wanted. Also agree that contacts within the unit are also finicky. Had to slide a rail on one unit to ensure proper contact below.   Based on John's post, I'll be watching to see if and where I need to make any further adjustments. 

Thanks,

Michael Pags

I have done about 20 of these switches without using the origional controllers. It is possible to control them with a normal n/o contact push button and red and green LEDs, resistors and diodes. See attached diagrams. Note left and right controls are different polarity.

Thanks for the info ...

I recently installed O-gauge black K-Line O42-inch switches on my emerging home train layout. Four of them have the "big motor" (BM) housing and traditional red & green lamps in its lantern housing; two others are the newer model with a "low profile", black base,  red & green LEDs, and accompanying controllers.

MANY THANKS for the tip about "handed-ness" of K-Line controllers; which was news to me.  The four BM switches I bought via eBay came without controllers, which I initially dismissed as "no problem" since I have plenty of Lionel O22 controllers.  I take it this older BM model may require RH and LH controllers; or is that requirement applicable only to the low profile LED-equipped model?  If required, I'll contact BRASSEUR for two RH and two LH controllers.

This evening was the first test run of the layout, and a loco stopped dead in its tracks when leaving one of the BM switches set in the straight position. A meter showed power on the rails at the entry to the switch and through the frog, but the center rail of the short segment of the straight exit leg had no power. I suspect a broken connection to that portion of the center rail inside the switch.  I'll remove the switch and open it for inspection.

Comments in this thread reported internal problems with brass strips and connections.  I may discover more than one BM switch needing attention.  I'll keep the soldering gun handy.

With appreciation,

Mike

(ritrainguy)

Mike H Mottler posted:

Thanks for the info ...

I recently installed O-gauge black K-Line O42-inch switches on my emerging home train layout. Four of them have the "big motor" (BM) housing and traditional red & green lamps in its lantern housing; two others are the newer model with a "low profile", black base,  red & green LEDs, and accompanying controllers.

MANY THANKS for the tip about "handed-ness" of K-Line controllers; which was news to me.  The four BM switches I bought via eBay came without controllers, which I initially dismissed as "no problem" since I have plenty of Lionel O22 controllers.  I take it this older BM model may require RH and LH controllers; or is that requirement applicable only to the low profile LED-equipped model?  If required, I'll contact BRASSEUR for two RH and two LH controllers.

This evening was the first test run of the layout, and a loco stopped dead in its tracks when leaving one of the BM switches set in the straight position. A meter showed power on the rails at the entry to the switch and through the frog, but the center rail of the short segment of the straight exit leg had no power. I suspect a broken connection to that portion of the center rail inside the switch.  I'll remove the switch and open it for inspection.

Comments in this thread reported internal problems with brass strips and connections.  I may discover more than one BM switch needing attention.  I'll keep the soldering gun handy.

With appreciation,

Mike

(ritrainguy)

 

Mike; I have a couple of the older "BM" style switches on my layout; K-375 and K-376. The controllers for these are not specific to left or right, and are in fact interchangeable with 022 controllers. The K-Line controllers for these switches are a nearly perfect reproduction of the 022 controllers, but made of black plastic.

Rod

Tracker John posted:

The switches operate fine when the insulated (non-derailing) rails are shorted to the ground rail, so a momentary contact switch should be fine as a substitute controller.  The LEDs on the controller and switch rely on "handed" components and polarity of the DC current between the switch and controller - look on the underside of the K-Line controller for the RH or LH mark. 

Other problems you have to deal with tuning up a K-Line switch (and other brands of switches):

The center power rails are connected with a brass strip visible on the underside which are inserted into the cast center rail parts.  The adjacent black rail has uncertain contact to the center rail casting, so will have poor or no power as the parts loosen with running.  This will manifest itself on switches having an insulating pin at the end of the center rail.  Adding power feed wires as Michael states solves that problem.

The frog should have an air gap with the outer rails within the switch or sparking will occur.  On the early K-line switches, the RH models all suffered from no air gap and I disassembled the rails and ground the ends to create an air gap.  Black electrical tap over the top of the rail solves that problem with much less work.  I now cover the rail from the frog to halfway down the point rails to address wide roller sparking.

Many of my K-Line switches motors are now suffering from poor operation of the internal limit switch that results in switch motors running until the switch point is pushed home, or not operating at all.  Since the motor is part of the plastic tie base, maintenance of the motor requires removal of the switch.  A pending project is cutting the switch motor free of the plastic ties and using a Z-stuff switch to throw the points.  Has anyone on the forum successfully re-motored a K-Line?

John

 

 

 

"The frog should have an air gap with the outer rails within the switch or sparking will occur.  On the early K-line switches, the RH models all suffered from no air gap and I disassembled the rails and ground the ends to create an air gap.  Black electrical tap over the top of the rail solves that problem with much less work.  I now cover the rail from the frog to halfway down the point rails to address wide roller sparking."

I just found this thread and am glad I did. Earlier this year I went through a total of 13 OLR / K-Line RH switches and they all sparked / shorted. I really wanted to use these switches as they work well with both modern and prewar trains, so I decided to try them again. Last night I tried 3 more new ones from a different retailer, and the same thing happened: RH switches short, LH switches work great. If possible, would you be willing to post photos of where you place the tape? 

Many thanks,

John

Tracker John posted:

The switches operate fine when the insulated (non-derailing) rails are shorted to the ground rail, so a momentary contact switch should be fine as a substitute controller.  The LEDs on the controller and switch rely on "handed" components and polarity of the DC current between the switch and controller - look on the underside of the K-Line controller for the RH or LH mark. 

Other problems you have to deal with tuning up a K-Line switch (and other brands of switches):

The center power rails are connected with a brass strip visible on the underside which are inserted into the cast center rail parts.  The adjacent black rail has uncertain contact to the center rail casting, so will have poor or no power as the parts loosen with running.  This will manifest itself on switches having an insulating pin at the end of the center rail.  Adding power feed wires as Michael states solves that problem.

The frog should have an air gap with the outer rails within the switch or sparking will occur.  On the early K-line switches, the RH models all suffered from no air gap and I disassembled the rails and ground the ends to create an air gap.  Black electrical tap over the top of the rail solves that problem with much less work.  I now cover the rail from the frog to halfway down the point rails to address wide roller sparking.

Many of my K-Line switches motors are now suffering from poor operation of the internal limit switch that results in switch motors running until the switch point is pushed home, or not operating at all.  Since the motor is part of the plastic tie base, maintenance of the motor requires removal of the switch.  A pending project is cutting the switch motor free of the plastic ties and using a Z-stuff switch to throw the points.  Has anyone on the forum successfully re-motored a K-Line?

John

 

 

 

Tracker John,

When you removed the rail to grind it down, how did you re-attach it? The little retainer rings are pretty much used-up after removal. Thanks,

John

My switches, from early runs, have small hex huts holding the cast rails to the base so disassembly and reassembly required a small hex wrench.  I have seen a different attachment method in later production.  Epoxy or Goop will hold the rails if the attachment mechanism fails.   The simple solution is black electrical tape over the top of the rails - no disassembly required. 

Tracker John posted:

My switches, from early runs, have small hex huts holding the cast rails to the base so disassembly and reassembly required a small hex wrench.  I have seen a different attachment method in later production.  Epoxy or Goop will hold the rails if the attachment mechanism fails.   The simple solution is black electrical tape over the top of the rails - no disassembly required. 

Thanks Tracker John, My switches don't have hex nuts; instead they have small retainer rings that look sort of like a tooth washer. One-time use. I've searched my local hardware store but not much luck. 

Is there any drawback to the electrical tape fix, such as a dead spot in the switch? As you can tell by now, my electrical skills are lacking. Thanks a million for the help. 

John

Re: Switch controllers. Yes, the internal components for LH and RH  switches are different. The polarity of everything is reversed. The club I'm a member of has a layout with many of the K-Line switches. We use separate push buttons and LED indicators on the control panel. If I can find the wiring diagrams I will post therm later.

Trainman,

I am curious about the long-term use of these switches. How are they holding up?  I am building a 9X14 layout with traditional Lionel O gauge tubular track and had intended on using the very reliable and easily serviceable 022 switches, but b/c of space limitations, I have replaced most of these with the newer O Line Reproduction switches. (I have 13 switches in this tight space - multi level with lots of spurs - , so I have been reluctant to go with the really expensive units.)  These are apparently the same as the K-Line units. I have experienced the quirkiness of these units reported by others, but with some attention (and black tape), they seem to work fine.  Just wondering about their longevity.

Thanks,

Michael