York/Gettysburg steam engine - anyone seen it?

There are photos all over the internet of the York #17. Did you try a search?

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Ron M

Rode today on the "Glen Rock Express". Beautiful locomotive. Nice folks running the show but ZERO scenery to see except a number of homes, trees, and a very large funeral home. Perhaps the trains that run all the way to Hanover offer a better view. I probably wouldn't ride it again unless I was in the area. While it rained earlier in the morning, it was not when we were on the train. Running at 5mph and not being allowed to open any windows or the doors at each end of the cars for ventilation wasn't a way to win me over. 

Do search for "York steam into history" for photos I took several weeks ago. The ride to Hanover Junction would be more scenic.

The 9:00 AM train goes to Glen Rock. The Noon train and 3:00 PM train go to Hanover Junction. My wife, Beverly, and I rode the 3:00 PM train last Sunday, June 30. Here are photos

Only 5 MPH? Why?

Thanks.  Had seen pics.  Was interested in stories of what it was like as well.  I'm with Rich - 5 mph?  Why?  And on all routes? Seems like a big investment of time and money for a what sounds like a relatively mediocre setting and run.  But I'm glad someone did it.  Beautiful engine.

Give it sometime, guys.  They just started operations.  Strasburg was pretty much nothing when they started out.

It will take a little time to evaluate what works and what doesn't.  The operation will then rise or fall on it's own merits.

Rusty

This probably is not a scientific answer, but .... We were riding the trail and we ride 10-12 mph and the train left us behind. At 5 mph all the bicycle riders would be passing the train!!!!!!! It doesn't happen. I was surprised how fast it was moving.

5MPH on the outbound trip running in reverse. I'd say we were at 10MPH on the way back.  Should have been more clear. Regardless, I could have walked faster. 

SJC I am not disputing your experience. On the day we watched it, I took the attached photo and tried to catch it up with it. We could not catch up and it disappeared out ahead of us very quickly. It was running as you see, on the way back from Hanover Junction. I know nothing about what it does running backwards, which it did into Hanover Junction. They did spend a lot of time moving the engine to the front of the train at Hanover Junction. I was there on one of their first trips there. They were very cautious and deliberate in all there operations. (I was impressed with this) I wish your experience had been better.

Just a thought, but maybe you guys should provide the dates of each of your experiences. Why, because the locomotive had a valve gear failure, more than a week ago, and just returned to operation on Monday of this week, I believe. Maybe they are "running slower" now?

1) Number 17's advertised speed is 10 mph. From my observation, they run 10-15 mph.

2) The train DOES NOT run to Gettysburg and DOES NOT run to Hanover. It runs between New Freedom, PA and Hanover Junction, PA. Hanover Junction is not the same as Hanover.

3) The operation runs on the tracks of the old Northern Central division. The right-of-way was converted to a rail-trail years ago. It's been a while since any kind of train has operated over those tracks and at least 60 years since a steam locomotive.

4) The consist includes an open air car if you like.

A few more from a 9 AM trip on June 22nd.

The chase was a bit misleading in that the train goes MUCH slower in reverse then it does on the return when the engine is leading.  You could probably catch it at EVERY crossing on the way up but it's a race to catch a handful on the way back.  I'd say 15 mph sounds about right - though at times it seemed faster.

They pull the train to Hanover Junction and then disconnect the train.  The steam engine then backs into the recently restored "Junction" which is now nothing more then a spur long enough to fit the engine.  A diesel switcher then pulls the cars forward clearing the "Junction" and the steam engine pulls forward and then backs up to connect to the train.

Interesting note - if the tracks were not pulled up, they'd continue past New Freedom eventually connecting to the NEC at Baltimore.  Part of that right of way is used by the Light Rail system.

As it is, the bike path follows the active line the entire length.  Evening pictures likely offer better opportunities, though it runs mostly through the woods.

It's an amazing sight, however.  Everything needed to build a functional steam engine is right there in front of you in it's most basic form.  You could spend a good amount of time just gazing - it's a real time warp.

/Mitch

I understand they will be adding a turntable so the loco will not have to run in reverse. I don't know the timeline for that.

That would require a turntable at EACH END.  All it takes is money I guess.

That is pretty nice.

However I would hope they will accomodate the heat with windows that open.

When we were at Hanover Junction, someone said that farm land at Seven Valleys (a little north of Hanover Junction) had been purchased to build a turn table, and one would be built at New Freedom. No timetable was mentioned, but obvious plans are underway.

That's a beautiful engine.  Sorry to hear one cannot open coach windows but good to hear there is another open car.  Will have to make the trip up there soon.

A few more from Sunday, July 7th:

/Mitch

I've been out of town but could offer a little bit of info. I've run the line at least 100 times over the years with the speeder groups. There is a lot of early American Scenery up and down the line. Guess you have to know where to look. With the speeders we have the 360 degree view. Sounds like they need a historian conductor to Narate the ride.

The engine had broke down and they had worked on the reversing gear and were probably testing it out and being overly cautious not to damage anything and be sure it was OK, given they had the big weekend ahead. Steam into history had planned for the 150th anniversary and I think they wanted to be sure the engine  would be running that weekend, that was what all the money was spent for. Or call it it there mission statement/ milestone date.

The line was washed out in 1972 and was completely rebuilt by Penn Central. No major work has been done since. the dinner train did some spot stuff but nothing major. Steam into history did just do alot of track work recently. I could see some nerviousness in there minds to run the line on anything over excepted track speed of 10 MPH until there sure the roadbed is good. They could still be replacing ties out there, and slow orders are in place.

The largest single issue and why so many people thought this would never happen is the simple fact that the second track was pulled up in the rebuild of 1972. The rails to Trails folks saw the limited use rail and got the trail built right next to the rail. the roadbed chris crosses the bike trail 21 times. There is no room for error. Trains don't stop on a dime. Can you imagine pushing a train among all the hikers, HORSES, and dogs running around the entire length of the run. I don't blame them for running slow at the moment until everyone is used to each other. It's been many years since the last dinner train ran. I've had problems with all three. The Horses are the biggest problem on the line, there are a couple that get spooked every time we pass. At Howard tunnel just down the line from Hanover Junction we don't even go in the tunnel if there are horseback riders in it.

Steam into History has a booth at York and they show the two turntables they plan on building. There will be a round house built at New Freedom end about 1/4 mile up from the station. If I'm not mistaken ONE person is footing the bill for this entire project. The engine, train cars, and the roadbed. Quite a give back to his local community.

Beyond Hanover Junction the tracks continue on up to york and interchange with CSX. the scenery does get better there and Howard Tunnel, the first and oldest continuious operated tunnel in the US. We led out with the speeders ahead of the train go to the end of track turn, have lunch and come back behind the train. 

Jamie

Absolutely beautiful engine, thanks for sharing!

Just some minor corrections.  When the bridges were washed out by Agnes in 1972 they were replaced by the State of Pennsylvania and then turned over to the County of York for a RailTrail with a stipulation that rail traffic could use it, because the person pushing it was D. Reed Anderson, senator and stakeholder in the Stewartstown Railroad.  This all happened in the middle '80's.

This isn't being done by one person it is a group with a lot of OLD York County money.

Gene Anstine

My wife and I and some friends rode the 3:00 PM train to Hanover Junction on Wednesday July 10.  We rode in the open car.  I did notice that most of the windows in the coaches were open on this trip.  The train made better time on the return leg with the locomotive facing forward and I would estimated our speed at times to be approacing 20mph.  Without mileposts to clock, I could not save for sure bit it was moving at a decent clip.

The huge brass crosshead driven water pumps are not operational.  There are Penberthy non-lifting injectors on both sides of the locomotive hidden behind the rear driversthat supply the boiler with water.

Which makes me wonder about the crosshead driven pumps.  How did they supply the boiler with water when the engine was sitting still for a period of time between runs back in the 1860s?

They didn't.

The engine would have to be moved to add water.

Rusty

Before injectors were invented, water could by pumped into boilers only when locomotives were moving. Hostlers had to run them back and forth whenever boilers needed water.

I have a recording of the GENERAL, newly restored by the L&N, using a crosshead-driven pump. It made a clacking noise, something like a slow-running diesel would sound in a "tinplate" prewar locomotive.

Injectors worked while locomotives were running or standing still. But there was some resistance to injectors at first. Using steam to inject water at boiler pressure sounded far-fetched, like perpetual-motion machines or "scams" today.

A great story from railroad history:

Henri Giffard, a brilliant aerialist (balloonist) of the day, (mid-1800s) designed a jet run on steam to power his balloons. That invention never went into production, and he shelved the design. Later, when he mentioned the design to a fellow passenger on a steam ship, that person immediately saw that the device could be used to put water back into boilers. So, the injector we use to this day was originally designed to power balloons.

Injectors are amazing devices. Just goes to show you what a little kinnetic energy can do to overcome a check valve being held shut at the exact same pressure the injector is operating at.

The engines of the Walt Disney World Railroad still use their crosshead water pumps to put water into their boilers; they have injectors (for obvious safety reasons), but the crosshead pumps are used primarily--and seem to be preferred!

And for those of you who would like to see this train in moving pictures (and not just stills), I submit the following two (plus) minute video for your enjoyment...

http://youtu.be/AkAjyPeHnHk

if anyone hear heard, the York stopped running for a while because of a problem with the reversing mechanism.  I found out that the company that made the replicas of the #119 and #60 for Promontory Point, was a company like general atomics and the precision was within 15/10000 of an inch.  At that level of precision, the sliding joints would expand just enough with the steam, that the joints locked into place.  After they got it unstuck, they then had to take that part off and mill it down, so that it could expand and not lock up.

That is real interesting information, except that the company that built the locomotives for the Promontory Point National Park operation, did NOT build the #17 "York". I'm sure that Mr. Phil Kloke, owner of Kloke Locomotive Works, may have a bit different take on what happened. Possibly lack of lubrication?

Thanks for the vid.  I watched a longer one too.  Have a much better appreciation now for just how petite those 4-4-0 were.  The scenery is clearly that engine.  She's a beaut.  

Hot Water,

I talked directly with the locomotive engineer about the valve gear problem with the York and he pointedto the Stephenson link motion components between the frame of the locomotive and said that they found some parts were too tight and that they were removed and machined to add some clearance.  Wheher this could have been resolved with proper lubrication I cannot say, but those components are not in the most accessable location and may have been overlooked by the men doing the oiling around that I have observed.

Considering that the engine crew appears to be relatively young, the locomotive being new and the whole operation just starting out, I am not sure where they would be getting their training for basic locomotive maintenance.  I am sure they will get there.  The difficulty of accessing the Stephenson link motion was part of its downfall.

Joe

Thanks Joe. From the various photos posted, it looked to me like a bit of inexperienced crew also. I don't recall Phil Kloke's first locomotive, The Leviathan #63, having any such problems, but then with the experienced folks from the IRM providing assistance, one would expect success.

I spoke with the crew. They told me that three previous replicas (UP #119, CP JUPITER, the LEVIATHAN) run mostly for show. No. 17, the YORK, is running in regular service. Climbing the 5-mile 2% grade to New Freedom, the link block overheated. The engine did not break. It had a seizure. Both blocks were milled with a clearance of .0008 instead of .0005 and that solved the problem. The crew chalked that up to "breaking in" a new locomotive.

Other new locomotives had problems, too. In his book THE MIGHTY 800, William W. Kratville recounts that after the first UP 4-8-4, No. 800, made a round trip between Cheyenne and Green River, inspectors discovered that her firebox sheets were blistering. A close look revealed they were laminated, a flaw caused by foreign material in the sheet steel when the sheets were being rolled at the steel mill. Nos. 800 and 801 were repaired at Cheyenne. Nos. 802-809 were halted en route to the UP and returned to ALCo in Schenectady for repairs (pp. 29-30).

Is there a web-site for this ride or anyone have a telephone number to contact them?

I'll me down that way and would like to check there train times etc.

Thanks

Joe

The oil points on Stephenson valve gear are pretty much THE MOST IMPORTANT places to lubricate on the engine; I highly doubt they were simply forgotten about because of their location (It isn't THAT hard to get to them).

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Well, "the crew" doesn't real know what they are talking about if that is what they said about the Leviathan #63! The Leviathan has been to the Illinois Railway Museum for operation on their main line, and handled two fairly heavy coaches at speeds well over 20MPH, and the IRM main line is some 10 miles long. Yes the two locomotive out in Utah do operate for show only, and do NOT pull trains. But Leviathan has been "earning her money" at the IRM MANY times.