15 x 17 Folded Dogbone Layout Planning

Greg,

Good morning, I like the track plan with two rev. loops plus the crossovers to go from one loop to the other. My layout is a similar design although done with Gilbert Flyer track, this tighter curves. Might you be able to fold your inner loop over itself by adding a long, but not to steep incline? This could add quite a bit of track to the inner loop and at the same time give the scenery breaks you are looking for. I have a scarf plan on my profile page that you can see, you might be able to use something similar on yours.

Ray

Nice start Greg. Will the third loop be connected to the lower or independent? The grade to connect up and down will take quite a bit of real estate. I like Ray's suggestion to fold the inner loop on itself and elevate it up and over the outer loop. The inner 060 could go over the 072 on the top left corner by shifting the 072 to the right a bit and have the 060 be at the left edge around the curve.  This might give you the connection for the third elevated loop as well.

The two reverse loops can be where you add switches for serving industries on a couple short sidings.

Bob

I will throw this plan out there.  I built this for a guy and have always liked it.  Similar to your’s but with a 2nd level that contains the 2nd reverse loop.  It takes about 14’ to have the clearance with a reasonable grade for a 2nd level and you have that.  You can put the crossovers in different spots, but I would keep the one in front where it is.  I know it is a rough sketch, but I’m sure you get the idea.  Fun to operate, makes things a bit more challenging to switch between the 2 loops going in the one direction.  Just thought I’d share this.  Have fun.

My major reservation with the plan is how do you reach most of the stuff in the back?  I see a reach of seven feet at least to a majority of the stuff next to the wall, that will become a major liability in the future I expect.  I'd consider access from the wall side...

My other reservation is the lack of sufficient yard space.  IMO, it's almost impossible to have too much yard space, I have thirteen yard tracks at least twelve feet long, and I wish I had space for more yard tracks.  Four yard tracks six to seven feet long is way too little staging area, at least IMO.  I like to have a few things ready to run that I can just drive out onto the layout.

I'd plan for some industry sidings so the railroad has something to do to produce revenue as well.

He could leave the layout 1’ away from the wall to get around back for access.  That is what I did when I built the layout in my drawing.  Keep in mind John, he doesn’t have the space you do, and might not have inventory of trains you possess, but he could add more yard tracks if he felt it necessary.

I’m in a similar situation.   Just learned the dimensions of the bonus room in the new house.   Due to life changes, part of the space needs to be a bedroom now.  I’ll no longer have a bonus room where the stairs come up in the middle and can’t do a room perimeter layout.   I’m looking at dog-bone layouts that will fit in a 24x18 room.   It’s a bit larger than your space but I hope this helps.

Shout out to RBP Trains @Chris1985 for the inspiration here.    He has some key elements that make great use of space that I want to incorporate.   It’s a double mainline but the inner line uses a single track with reversing loop at each end to save space.  A couple of well place crossovers allows the outer mainline train to be turned around as well.   The yard is incorporated nicely.  Plenty of room to add sidings around the layout too.

I’ll be posting versions of my take on this. I’ll have room to do an 084 outer loop. I’ll incorporate an elevated line that will circle the interior of either of the dog bone ends. I possibly might have enough room to do a peninsula with an engine yard, but still drafting designs.

Appreciate the feedback so far. When I have some time tonight, I will experiment with the elevated/up/over idea for the inner loop and see what I can do. I like the idea for sure, if I can make it fit.

A possible 3rd loop would be independent - just a place to run an extra train, and maybe traditional sized equipment that'll take tighter curves. But maybe I skip it if we do something with the inner loop like stated above...

I will need to head to the basement to measure again...every 6" counts and I am trying to carefully account for my realistic space. But, the area isn't finished yet so I may still be able to buy myself some extra space in one of the directions. Also making sure I account for the space I will lose once the walls are framed, drywalled, etc. This is the main reason for getting some real feedback now - I can probably still buy some extra space if needed to make a desirable track plan work.

I will have to do something about the access like @gunrunnerjohn indicates - I would favor the ability to walk around, even if tight, but will have to see if I can give up the space on the layout, or expand the available real estate to make it happen.

Maybe I'll post the track plan with the entire basement visible later, for reference.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

My major reservation with the plan is how do you reach most of the stuff in the back?  I see a reach of seven feet at least to a majority of the stuff next to the wall, that will become a major liability in the future I expect.  I'd consider access from the wall side...

My other reservation is the lack of sufficient yard space.  IMO, it's almost impossible to have too much yard space, I have thirteen yard tracks at least twelve feet long, and I wish I had space for more yard tracks.  Four yard tracks six to seven feet long is way too little staging area, at least IMO.  I like to have a few things ready to run that I can just drive out onto the layout.

I'd plan for some industry sidings so the railroad has something to do to produce revenue as well.

Not bad. Looks like it will be fun. Still need trees😉

@William 1 posted:

He could leave the layout 1’ away from the wall to get around back for access.  That is what I did when I built the layout in my drawing.  Keep in mind John, he doesn’t have the space you do, and might not have inventory of trains you possess, but he could add more yard tracks if he felt it necessary.

He's asking for comments, and I'm giving them.  My opinion is more yard space would be a great asset, perhaps you have a different opinion.

In truth, my layout is 24 x 12, not exactly dwarfing his space.  You don't need a huge inventory of trains, which admittedly I do have, to want to keep a few for ready access without unpacking them to run.

I’m not disagreeing with you on the yard space and said he could add on more if necessary.  He could always expand and add more later.  Pretty easy to do.  He could even add a roundhouse in that area, that’s what I did when I built my plan. Us that’s what the guy wanted.  Oh man, that Atlas roundhouse, that was a heap of plastic.  A turntable and roundhouse does need a lot of real estate, I will add that.

The loops look like they will provide interesting display running..

However, in y opinion the storage tracks are lacking.

A few thoughts:

For the fully open access side  simply extend the tracks farther down along that wall.  Plus consider doubling the sidings to 8 tracks.

It seems as though there are only 4 tracks in 24" of bench work width.  Consider, using appropriate turnouts, to maintain a 3 3/4" center line on the siding tracks which will maximize any space you have available.

Storage tracks are the life blood of any layout.  adequate storage will make any layout more dynamic. Minimal staging will encourage excess handling of equipment and resulting in damage, scratching and snapped widgets.

Added bonus, minimal storage may also provide unexpected frustration and discouragement.

@VJandP posted:

I’m in a similar situation.   Just learned the dimensions of the bonus room in the new house.   Due to life changes, part of the space needs to be a bedroom now.  I’ll no longer have a bonus room where the stairs come up in the middle and can’t do a room perimeter layout.   I’m looking at dog-bone layouts that will fit in a 24x18 room.   It’s a bit larger than your space but I hope this helps.

Shout out to RBP Trains @Chris1985 for the inspiration here.    He has some key elements that make great use of space that I want to incorporate.   It’s a double mainline but the inner line uses a single track with reversing loop at each end to save space.  A couple of well place crossovers allows the outer mainline train to be turned around as well.   The yard is incorporated nicely.  Plenty of room to add sidings around the layout too.

I’ll be posting versions of my take on this. I’ll have room to do an 084 outer loop. I’ll incorporate an elevated line that will circle the interior of either of the dog bone ends. I possibly might have enough room to do a peninsula with an engine yard, but still drafting designs.

Funny that you bring up RBP - If I had the space, I would be doing a very similar plan. You need at least one dimension 22-24ft to pull it off with O72+ curves (preferably longer, but you'll be able to do a similar version in your space). @raising4daughters also has a very similar plan. I'd really like to do a layout closer to this, but I don't think I can pull off the length required to do it properly, with the larger curves.

Looking forward to seeing your design on this one.

Not saying I disagree with the idea of more storage tracks, but keep in mind that getting back to straight from each switch eats up a fair amount of space, leaving each additional yard track shorter and shorter.  Judging by the sketch, after 2 switches the outside track might be only 2’ long.  Realistically 2 - 10” fright cars or one engine.  There is a cost Vs utility factor to think about.  Switches ain’t cheap.

And John, please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t your yard on a completely different wing, so to speak, and not part of your 12’  x 24’ main layout.  He has to put all this in a confined 15’ x 17’ space, yard and all.  I might be wrong about that, certainly don’t mean to offend you, just talking out loud.

Cheers,       W1

@William 1 posted:

Not saying I disagree with the idea of more storage tracks, but keep in mind that getting back to straight from each switch eats up a fair amount of space, leaving each additional yard track shorter and shorter.  Judging by the sketch, after 2 switches the outside track might be only 2’ long.  Realistically 2 - 10” fright cars or one engine.  There is a cost Vs utility factor to think about.  Switches ain’t cheap.

I don't necessarily say that I'd adhere to that particular layout plan.  I think there's probably a better configuraiton to fit a 15 x 17 room, that's a pretty decent space.  On one thing we can agree, switches ain't cheap!  I have probably about $5,000 worth of Ross switches on my layout.  OTOH, when you really think about it, the two V L Big Boys and the VL Challenger on my stair shelves cost more than that.  All your trains will be running on the layout, IMO that's not the place to be pinching pennies.

@William 1 posted:

And John, please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t your yard on a completely different wing, so to speak, and not part of your 12’  x 24’ main layout.  He has to put all this in a confined 15’ x 17’ space, yard and all.  I might be wrong about that, not trying to offend you, just talking out loud.

Yes, my yard is indeed along a wall not included in the 12 x 24 space.  I actually didn't initially plan on more yard space when building, but even before I was done building I realized that three 12 foot yard tracks was woefully deficient for yard space, and I quickly adjusted the plan to accommodate the expansion before the layout even had track laid.  Truthfully, I'd like even more yard space, but that's a much bigger deal, so I'm going to live with what I have.

If there's ever a time to consider any changes to the layout, it's before you build the benchwork and have the track laid.  Now is the time to consider all your options and how you intend to run.  Another plan for lots of yard space is under the main platform, a hidden yard.  That's not difficult to accommodate before you build the benchwork, but much harder when everything is done.  Had I considered additional yard space earlier in my build, I would have some lower level yard tracks.

Good discussion, he did say ‘a small yard for storing trains’ in his requirements.  If he has to move equipment to and from the layout by hand I don’t see that as such a big deal.  But that’s only my opinion of course.

Just two screenshots attached. You can see where the basement support posts are, and where a wall would be in the 15x17 version. This is why I'm kind of boxed in to the right of those support posts. To the left, there is an approximate 25'x15' or so rectangular space, which will be the other section of the finished basement. But I don't think I'm being deeded that space...

Then, a version with a 15x20 space. It looks like I could probably push the longer dimension to 19-20 feet of usable space...which would be enough for longer yard tracks. Or, perhaps just enough room to allow for a substantially different design.

I'm honestly struggling with the space - it's a lot of room, but given the shape, maybe I should be embracing an around the room or an island with space to walkaround the outside.

@William 1 posted:

Good discussion, he did say ‘a small yard for storage’ in his requirements.  If he has to move equipment to and from the layout by hand I don’t see that as such a big deal.  But that’s only my opinion of course.

I think I probably went with "small yard" just due the fact that I'm probably fairly boxed in on that with my current design. I don't see A LOT of storage tracks as necessary for me, but I certainly agree with Tom and John that at least a few more, and longer, would certainly be more functional. But, that's why I'm grateful for the feedback and discussion. This will help me figure out if I can live with the 15x17 envelope, or if I need to push the limits and expand the basement area a bit more, or negotiate for another part of the basement.

If you have that whole space, I suspect a better use of the space could indeed be realized.

Can you perhaps show where any obstructions are and where entrance doors, windows, and any other equipment that has to be accessed is?

My plan does give you an elevated track, also hidden tracks under the elevated area.  You could put your mountain on the 2nd level, giving you 2 hidden areas.  Guess I’m just partial to it, having designed and built it before.  I like your original plan much better than  the 2nd version.  The 2nd version takes away from having spur tracks for industries.  Sometimes you can overthink things (I do) and your first idea turns out to be the best.

Maybe,

@Fast Mail posted:

Maybe,

One pop-up doesn't cover it.   What about all the other areas you can't reach?

This is the whole finished basement area. (2-3' bump out on the bottom right, where the layout is pictured, may be possible on top of this)

This will be a trains + living area/hangout space area..so I'm not getting the whole thing. I'm guessing I can negotiate half.

@GregK posted:

This will help me figure out if I can live with the 15x17 envelope, or if I need to push the limits and expand the basement area a bit more, or negotiate for another part of the basement.

Goodness, if you can get more space, now's the time to plan for it!   Even a three foot long section along one wall for a nice yard would be a great addition!

In the space you have there, I'd consider a U shaped plan that has the open end closed with a lift bridge of some sort.  I'd also have at a minimum, the long legs of the "U" off the wall by maybe 18" to allow access from both sides.  I think you can make a nice plan in the space (perhaps with a yard extension) that will allow you easy access to everything, or at least most everything.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Goodness, if you can get more space, now's the time to plan for it!   Even a three foot long section along one wall for a nice yard would be a great addition!

In the space you have there, I'd consider a U shaped plan that has the open end closed with a lift bridge of some sort.  I'd also have at a minimum, the long legs of the "U" off the wall by maybe 18" to allow access from both sides.  I think you can make a nice plan in the space (perhaps with a yard extension) that will allow you easy access to everything, or at least most everything.

I've toyed with the U....if I can open up the length of the space from 17 to 19/20...it might work. It's those darn O72 loops...they just take up so much space.

Now you're talking, just sneak one end, then you have a nice yard!  You can still consider what I was suggesting and have a U shaped plan and close the end with a lift bridge.

A simple manual lift bridge isn't that hard to execute, and really allows way more flexibility.  Here's the one I have to enter my yard, it just hinges up and lays over to access that side of the layout.  A couple of brass alignment pins keep the tracks exactly lined up when the bridge is lowered.  The hinges being above the track head makes the mating easy, the track gap swings open when the bridge is opened.

@GregK posted:

I've toyed with the U....if I can open up the length of the space from 17 to 19/20...it might work. It's those darn O72 loops...they just take up so much space.

Don't try to put the curves all on one leg, that's the reason for the lift-bridge.  Have them go around and over the bridge, that way you can have even larger curves with no problem, and you don't have to make the individual legs wide enough for the curves.

I think John is starting to convince me that I should entertain the U/around the walls for this space… I have some ideas. I’ll try to throw together a concept tonight if I get some time.

This is a rough draft of what I'm thinking about but I scaled it down to 15x17.  My plan would have an offset dog bone similar to RBP's and I would also have more room for an additional peninsula for industry or engine yard.   

Here, the main level has 2 loops and a yard.  I forgot to add crossover between the 2 loops.  The blue is an elevated line.  On the very north and south corners, the switches in red would lead to a lower level yard with all 072 curves and switches to store more freight and larger locomotives.  Not sure how to do it just yet but maybe a reverse loop could be incorporated on the lower level some how.

EDIT:  Quick note ... The SCARM file is not exact.  When I do my initial drafts like this, I overlap track connections and eyeball switch positions.  This step for me is to see how well curves of a given size will fit in a specific space to see what's possible.  The next step would be to play with exact positions of track pieces and start piling in the 1 3/4" and 1 5/8" pieces. 

@VJandP posted:

This is a rough draft of what I'm thinking about but I scaled it down to 15x17.  My plan would have an offset dog bone similar to RBP's and I would also have more room for an additional peninsula for industry or engine yard.   

Here, the main level has 2 loops and a yard.  I forgot to add crossover between the 2 loops.  The blue is an elevated line.  On the very north and south corners, the switches in red would lead to a lower level yard with all 072 curves and switches to store more freight and larger locomotives.  Not sure how to do it just yet but maybe a reverse loop could be incorporated on the lower level some how.

EDIT:  Quick note ... The SCARM file is not exact.  When I do my initial drafts like this, I overlap track connections and eyeball switch positions.  This step for me is to see how well curves of a given size will fit in a specific space to see what's possible.  The next step would be to play with exact positions of track pieces and start piling in the 1 3/4" and 1 5/8" pieces.

I really like this design

@VJandP posted:

This is a rough draft of what I'm thinking about but I scaled it down to 15x17.  My plan would have an offset dog bone similar to RBP's and I would also have more room for an additional peninsula for industry or engine yard.   

Here, the main level has 2 loops and a yard.  I forgot to add crossover between the 2 loops.  The blue is an elevated line.  On the very north and south corners, the switches in red would lead to a lower level yard with all 072 curves and switches to store more freight and larger locomotives.  Not sure how to do it just yet but maybe a reverse loop could be incorporated on the lower level some how.

EDIT:  Quick note ... The SCARM file is not exact.  When I do my initial drafts like this, I overlap track connections and eyeball switch positions.  This step for me is to see how well curves of a given size will fit in a specific space to see what's possible.  The next step would be to play with exact positions of track pieces and start piling in the 1 3/4" and 1 5/8" pieces.

Nice. I will have to give something like this another try as well. I tried this with a small run through yard off the outer loop, but here you are doing it off the inner. Maybe that works a little better with the available space.

I have folded dog bone, that is similar but a bit bigger and had to account for utility closet.  On mine, I pushed folded part of the track closer together to get better access to both lines.  Both of my main lines are minimum 072, but if only the outer one needed to be 072, this could be condensed quite a bit.  I left open areas inside one of the loops to allow access and it has worked out really well.  It is even fun to go into these access areas sometimes to get a different perspective on the trains and layout.  My only regret with layout is using curved switches.  Each red square is a foot.

@Hump Yard Mike posted:

I have folded dog bone, that is similar but a bit bigger and had to account for utility closet.  On mine, I pushed folded part of the track closer together to get better access to both lines.  Both of my main lines are minimum 072, but if only the outer one needed to be 072, this could be condensed quite a bit.  I left open areas inside one of the loops to allow access and it has worked out really well.  It is even fun to go into these access areas sometimes to get a different perspective on the trains and layout.  My only regret with layout is using curved switches.  Each red square is a foot.

This is another great layout! I am amazed by the creativity here on the forum.

@Hump Yard Mike  I count your layout as about 15 by 25.  I figured I would need about that size to avoid lift ups/outs. Nice planning and design. Layout looks great.

@VJandP  When you do a little more detail in SCARM, use the 3D capability to see what you are getting. Below is an early layout with 2 main lines one above the other - not connected. The curves were 042 minimum. The track stacking was just not working for me. I could not visualize what I could do to finish the space so it made sense. This was in a 9x13 space. The loops connected to a single track in the middle. Operationally, I liked the way the lightly sprung Atlas switches would move as the engine pushed the points over. This resulted in the engine entering the loop in alternating directions and no wiring needed. 

Failing to opt for an around the walls configuration mandates that you have to deal with turn back loops.

Your choice, around the walls or awkward loops.  Stand up walk around anywhere or stoop crawl and pop up.

Compromise can be had as with GRJ with his roll up and hinged lift up.

Ladder track arrangements of turnouts frequently results in successively shorter sidings.

Typical commuter and hump yards frequently use a turnout (switch) on the diverging leg of each turnout  thus maximising siding length.

An excellent example is the Ross 4 way triple switch unit as in GRJ's yard approach seen above.

John Armstrong has an detailed section on turnout selection and how that will affect yard track length in his track planning for prototype operation book.  Highly recommended reading.

This turnouts feeds........these two staging turnouts

I'll evaluate another track system, too. I like several things about FasTrack, but it doesn't seem to provide for good yard track spacing.

I have an around-the-walls design in progress that I should be able to post later.

Thank you for your reply, Greg.

Here is a brainstorming attempt. We're still within the 15x17 section of the basement, with a yard extension to the top. I still designed this with FasTrack since that's what I'm comfortable with at the moment, but one of the other track systems may be a better option for this type of layout - time will tell.

Outer is O84, middle is O72, and the inner is O60. The wye/loop is minimum O72, so theoretically anything could run into the wye/loop and reverse, provided the train is shorter than 15' or so. It also makes for some interesting running opportunities between the middle and inner loops. That said, the inner loop isn't really necessary and could come out if space is an issue. At this size, the inner loop would make the aisles tight. But, with some tweaking, this seems like a viable option and offers a lot of train running. I didn't put them in yet, but assume O72 crossovers between the loops.

Would need a bridge/hinge on the left side for entry. The peninsula offers space for a town/city. Could do mountains in one or two of the corners. Will need a scenic backdrop budget for all that wall space.

If I were to adopt an around-the-walls plan, I would need to work in a feature, like the peninsula/wye/loop to add some interest and train routing options other than the outer loops. Adding some sort of elevation/grade might be nice too. I know there are other options here to add that sort of interest to a layout like this, so I want to work out a few options and definitely interested in everyone's opinion and suggestions for this style layout.

Taking the inner loop out, there would probably be room for passing sidings on the main lines, industry sidings, and maybe some additional curvature to some of the straight runs to break them up a little, as well. The yard is not a fine tuned attempt, but would get the job done with a few longer storage tracks.

I appreciate the feedback so far - this will be a fun one to design and will certainly be a long term project, especially since I am being quoted nearly $100/sqft to essentially frame, drywall, and put down a floor in the basement! So, it's not happening overnight. But, these designs will help me shape the overall space and make sure I'm able to work in the appropriate amount of space when the time comes.

You could consider using Fastrack for your mainlines and Ross switches with Ross or Gargraves track for your yard. A Ross 4-way will get you longer sidings with tighter spacing than you can accomplish with Fastrack.