250 watt ZW Transformer Struggles to power 2 trains

You are pushing the 190-200 watt continuous output capability of the ZW.

Thanks guys, good to get some confirmation of my suspicion. Will try the torpedo w/o the smoke...see if that helps it's speed with 2 trains running.  Any chance I can hook up another transformer (I have on old KW in storage) to my existing setup (i.e. can I have two transformers feeding one TIU?)

Fishman86,

   Time to add another ZW to your power station, in reality nothing wrong with the one you own, you are reaching max output with your lighted passenger cars however.  Guns puts LED's in his passenger cars to help with this power drain, you might try that also.

I have picked up more ZW, Z4K and KW Transformer over the years as my Train Room has  expanded.  

Always invest in more power for expansion, than you actually need to run your layout.

PCRR/Dave

Perhaps it's not your ZW but rather your Torpedo.  Isn't that when your problem started?  Try switching the ZW output to a different terminal and see if there's any change.   Do you have a way to see how many amps it is drawing.   For troubleshooting an amp meter is more important  than a volt meter.

Wild Mary, I have suspected that my new PRR Torpedo draws more power than previous engines I've used to pull the passenger train of 21" aluminum cars (formerly used a Pacific B&O LionChief steamer with no power troubles).  I have a digital multimeter that I've been measuring voltage with.  I think it has an amp measurement setting too (just need to put it's leads in series with the track connection I think).  I'll need to experiment and monitor the amp draw with the Torpedo pulling versus the LionChief pulling to see if the Torpedo is a power hog.  Any idea what kind of amp draw I should expect...or what the upper limit for a 250w ZW is?  Thanks everyone for your help. I'll need to report how my amp draw experiments workout when complete.

I wouldn't want to pull more than 10 amps continually on a 250W ZW. Intermitent burst to 15 amps are allowable.

While I agree with the others, it likely is the draw (I highly recommend having an Ammeter around, it can help diagnose who is at fault of he engines +lighting. Putting in LED lights is a great suggestion, I plan on retrofitting my own lighted things with LED's, plus turning off the smoke unit which is a heater/resistance unit. 

My other thought is if the last time the transformer was refurbished was the 1990's you may want to get someone knowledgeable to check it out, it is also possible that the transformer because of a variety of things (worn rollers inside, dirt/gunk, loose connections) is not able to put out its rated power, plus from a safety perspective never a bad idea to get it checked IMO. 

How many feet of track are you powering?  Surely you have enough power drops?  Do you feed each man with different outputs of the ZW?  I just run conventional so not familiar with the TIU but I see no way that two trains of any sort should overdraw a ZW.   Unless something is bad wrong with one of them or the unit.

Jim

All great advice given to you. IMHO...You need to re power your layout. ZW-C with two 180 W bricks and you can run command or conventional.One brick inner and one brick outer track as separate power districts.If you can afford the ZW-L go for it but it will be over kill. The PW ZW's are great transformers. Keep yours and use it to run accessories and call it a day.Good luck. Nick

Two other considerations: 

1. what else are you powering with that ZW?  Any continuously lighted accessories or switches with regular (non-LED) light bulbs and bulbs in their controllers?
2. What gauge wire are you using?  Too small will cause voltage drops.

Bill

The ZW is a thing of the past.  It was built in the middle of the last century.  Today we have many high powered transformers to choose from.   Use the ZW for lights as the guys mentioned.   I know guys worship them.   I am a huge fan of the ZW-L.  Now, that is a transformer.  

rockstars1989 posted:

You need to re power your layout. ZW-C with two 180 W bricks and you can run command or conventional.One brick inner and one brick outer track as separate power districts.If you can afford the ZW-L go for it but it will be over kill. The PW ZW's are great transformers. Keep yours and use it to run accessories and call it a day.Good luck. Nick

That's a bit overkill in my opinion. He already expressed he as a 190W KW and inquired about wiring it in conjunction with the 250W ZW to provide ~400Watts of power.

However, I seem to recall that the TIU is rated to 190VA, or about 10Amps. Maybe the issue isn't necessarily the transformer itself, but the TIU and it's abilities to carry the power demands. Admittedly, it could be just at the limit for both the transformer and the TIU.

bmoran4 posted:

rockstars1989 posted:

You need to re power your layout. ZW-C with two 180 W bricks and you can run command or conventional.One brick inner and one brick outer track as separate power districts.If you can afford the ZW-L go for it but it will be over kill. The PW ZW's are great transformers. Keep yours and use it to run accessories and call it a day.Good luck. Nick

That's a bit overkill in my opinion. He already expressed he as a 190W KW and inquired about wiring it in conjunction with the 250ZW to provide ~400Watts of power.

However, I seem to recall that the TIU is rated to 190VA, or about 10Amps. Maybe the issue isn't necessarily the transformer itself, but the TIU and it's abilities to carry the power demands. Admittedly, it could be just at the limit for both the transformer and the TIU.

The TIU (not the Revision G) has internal fuses that would blow in an overload situation. I think these fuses are 20 amps. While the TIU is rated for 190VA, it will deliver more power if it is provided / needed, but this will most likely damage the TIU. I suspect that the TIU won't choke the current needed by the track even if that current is beyond the designed specs of the TIU.

When running a postwar transformer with the TIU, It is recommended to place 10 Amp fast blow fuses between the transformer and the TIU inputs to prevent damage to the TIU. Fuses are cheap, TIUs are not.

If you have a smaller layout & run in passive mode, there is no limit for the power to the track.  Within your tolerance for arc welding, anyway.

Which revision is the TIU?

When you encounter the problem feel near the TIU outputs for heat.

Loose internal connections of the terminals could be a possible problem.

If they are warm or hot, remove the cover and tighten the fasteners.

Agree with Dave about the passenger cars. 

I doubt your problem is the ZW.   I was running three 20 car consists, and a 10 passenger car Amtrak, with 4 superliners, on my double-tracked overhead.  My family owned, 60 year old ZW, seemed to be underpowering the layout.  I needed a new Z4000 for my table layout expansion anyway.  I switched the brand new Z4000 in place of the ZW.   Absolutely no difference. 

Adding those superliners, with all those lamps, was causing a problem.  Gunrunner's led modules solved the problem.  It took a couple of days to swap out the lamps for led's, but it's a pretty straightforward operation.   Life on the overhead layout returned to normal.  That ZW, (and it's 60 year old twin on the table layout) has continued to power it's 6th family layout, in it's fourth house, as if it were brand new.

I suspect your problem lies with the new engine, but, swapping out those lamps for led's saves a lot of amps.  In case you're not aware, look for the module at Henning's Trains.

Good luck,

Jerry

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

 Now, that is a transformer.  

I think its a welder actually, but it good at running trains!

I can run 2 post war trains on a 12x14 dual track main with a KW for hours without it getting hardly warm. A ZW should be able to do that more without breathing hard. This speaks to a wiring problem, a locomotive/motor/pickup/onboard accessory like head light, whistle, smoke is the problem, too many accessories, track connection problems, or an issue inside the transformer probably a wiper (poor contact or dirty) or shorting secondary coil wires.

Bogie

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

The ZW is a thing of the past.  It was built in the middle of the last century.  Today we have many high powered transformers to choose from.   Use the ZW for lights as the guys mentioned.   I know guys worship them.   I am a huge fan of the ZW-L.  Now, that is a transformer.  

You better believe it! I re powered my layout with modern power 4 180W bricks ZW-C .I previously was powered with 2 PW ZW's in parallel. Got tired of blowing up boards in my command / Legacy engines. Problem solved now. You have to PAY to PLAY!! DO IT RIGHT!  Nick

Same thing if you use inner handles B & C  rather than A & D. They get the most use. perhaps the rollers are shot.

What's on the other track? I have a  275W ZW and it will run an ABBA set of F3s (2 Pullmor motors, Railsounds) with 6 16" aluminum cars on one track and an ABBA set of F3s  (2 Pullmor motors, Railsounds) pulling 10 scale refrigerator cars and a lighted caboose on the other track with no issue. Two passenger trains would overload the ZW but a passenger and a freight are fine. 

You're probably just overloading the ZW.

Fishman86 posted:

Hello everyone, thanks for taking the time to help a fellow model railroader out.  I have a two track display that's powered by an old 250 watt ZW transformer and controlled by MTH's DCS with a TIU and remote.  I often run MTH protosound 3 engines and occasionally post-war Lionels.  I always run the MTH engines in the DCS mode, and set the track voltage for each track manually with the DCS variable setting (set to 18 volts when running MTH engines, use variable voltage when running a post-war Lionel).  It seems my ZW has begun to struggle when running two trains.  When running a recently purchased Railking PRR Torpedo steamer on one track at about 40-50 smph (she can run pretty quickly, even when pulling six 21" aluminum passenger cars), as soon as I startup up the second engine on the other track (whether it be a post-war Lionel or another MTH proto 3 engine), the PRR Torpedo will greatly lose speed and struggle (the chuffing sound even begins to sound as if I'm holding the labored chuff toggle button).  The electrical posts on the back of ZW have been consistently measured at 18 volts when no trains are running, but both channels drop to around 14 volts when two trains are run.  The ZW was purchased in the early/mid 1990s as a refurbished unit.  I started using it a couple years ago (after years of long-term storage) and it has just started to have these aforementioned symptoms---shortly after purchasing the PRR Torpedo. Has my old ZW finally become worn out, or am I just asking too much of it?

does it have the same problem with other engine's, ie is it the torpedo? Also, you  might pull the top and check the carbon rollers just in case.  refurbished or not, you will know for sure

JerryG posted:

Agree with Dave about the passenger cars. 

I doubt your problem is the ZW.   I was running three 20 car consists, and a 10 passenger car Amtrak, with 4 superliners, on my double-tracked overhead.  My family owned, 60 year old ZW, seemed to be underpowering the layout.  I needed a new Z4000 for my table layout expansion anyway.  I switched the brand new Z4000 in place of the ZW.   Absolutely no difference. 

Adding those superliners, with all those lamps, was causing a problem.  Gunrunner's led modules solved the problem.  It took a couple of days to swap out the lamps for led's, but it's a pretty straightforward operation.   Life on the overhead layout returned to normal.  That ZW, (and it's 60 year old twin on the table layout) has continued to power it's 6th family layout, in it's fourth house, as if it were brand new.

I suspect your problem lies with the new engine, but, swapping out those lamps for led's saves a lot of amps.  In case you're not aware, look for the module at Henning's Trains.

Good luck,

Jerry

18V lamps about 5 watts each, two per car and ten cars= 20 lamps and maybe 100 watts let alone any accessories you may have linked in to the track circuit.  ZW rated at 250 watts was long stated to be able to provide 180 ish continuously.  When you add up all the lamps in addition the trains, it is a pile of power requirement.   Thus, when you switch to LEDs, its an incredible reduction in power requirements on your transformer.

Probably more if your talking pullmor motor F-3's.  ZW's can weld too if you try though

rockstars1989 posted:

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

The ZW is a thing of the past.  It was built in the middle of the last century.  Today we have many high powered transformers to choose from.   Use the ZW for lights as the guys mentioned.   I know guys worship them.   I am a huge fan of the ZW-L.  Now, that is a transformer.  

You better believe it! I re powered my layout with modern power 4 180W bricks ZW-C .I previously was powered with 2 PW ZW's in parallel. Got tired of blowing up boards in my command / Legacy engines. Problem solved now. You have to PAY to PLAY!! DO IT RIGHT!  Nick

You can't fault the ZWs for that - that is operator error by either improper/unprotected installation or operation. There are many many posts on this forum on proper installation and use of the robust and reliable ZWs (or any great classic) with DCS, TMCC, Legacy, LionChief, LionChief+ and so on (just as there are many posts on correct use of ZW-Cs and ZW-Ls and such).

bmoran4 posted:

rockstars1989 posted:

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

The ZW is a thing of the past.  It was built in the middle of the last century.  Today we have many high powered transformers to choose from.   Use the ZW for lights as the guys mentioned.   I know guys worship them.   I am a huge fan of the ZW-L.  Now, that is a transformer.  

You better believe it! I re powered my layout with modern power 4 180W bricks ZW-C .I previously was powered with 2 PW ZW's in parallel. Got tired of blowing up boards in my command / Legacy engines. Problem solved now. You have to PAY to PLAY!! DO IT RIGHT!  Nick

You can't fault the ZWs for that - that is operator error by either improper/unprotected installation or operation. There are many many posts on this forum on proper installation and use of the robust and reliable ZWs (or any great classic) with DCS, TMCC, Legacy, LionChief, LionChief+ and so on (just as there are many posts on correct use of ZW-Cs and ZW-Ls and such).

I believe that Nick was just referring to the slow acting breakers in the postwar ZW's. Yes, you could augment them with separate, fast-acting units but most folks probably just assume that the internal protection is adequate.

I will say that I've had both the ZW-C (135w bricks) and the ZW-L over the past 17 years and have never suffered any damaged loco boards.

It's the lighted cars. I bet 2 freight trains would run just fine.

I believe that Nick was just referring to the slow acting breakers in the postwar ZW's. Yes, you could augment them with separate, fast-acting units but most folks probably just assume that the internal protection is adequate.

Therein lies the rub.
How many times has the subject of using external protection with ZW and KW transformers been discussed here?
If folks don't understand what is being discussed in those threads, or are unwilling to add the external protection, then they should not be using those transformers.

C W Burfle posted:

I believe that Nick was just referring to the slow acting breakers in the postwar ZW's. Yes, you could augment them with separate, fast-acting units but most folks probably just assume that the internal protection is adequate.

Therein lies the rub.
How many times has the subject of using external protection with ZW and KW transformers been discussed here?
If folks don't understand what is being discussed in those threads, or are unwilling to add the external protection, then they should not be using those transformers.

I get frustrated when people recommend $1000 of new transformer and command equipment when under $20 can get you adequate breakers and TVS diodes to use what one already has in serviceable condition.

I get frustrated when people recommend $1000 of new transformer and command equipment when under $20 can get you adequate breakers and TVS diodes to use what one already has in serviceable condition.

Some folks are incapable of adding external breakers and TVS diodes. Those folks should not be using KW or ZW transformers.

bmoran4 posted:

C W Burfle posted:

I believe that Nick was just referring to the slow acting breakers in the postwar ZW's. Yes, you could augment them with separate, fast-acting units but most folks probably just assume that the internal protection is adequate.

Therein lies the rub.
How many times has the subject of using external protection with ZW and KW transformers been discussed here?
If folks don't understand what is being discussed in those threads, or are unwilling to add the external protection, then they should not be using those transformers.

I get frustrated when people recommend $1000 of new transformer and command equipment when under $20 can get you adequate breakers and TVS diodes to use what one already has in serviceable condition.

Agreed,  I fail to see what a 750 dollar ZWL will provide me that the a couple of ZW's and fast blowing fuses won't all for under 250.  When it comes to the TIU, it doesn't seem to care much.  I have powered it with bricks and the ZW.

If I was to do anything different, I would probably buy more Z1000 bricks.

Thanks everyone for your input.  After some experimentation, it seems that the Torpedo's maximum smoke volume setting was my problem.  With two trains running and the smoke volume on the low setting the train doesn't slow down and labor chuff.  However, when I switch the smoke volume setting to max while running two trains, the Torpedo will immediately slow down and begin to labor chuff.  It runs fine alone (when other train is off) with max smoke setting.  For reference, I have the ZW powering everything for this display as it is just a dual-track ceiling shelf layout (see below pictures).  When summing up the electrical load, I think I was pushing it.  The six 21" PRR passenger train cars each have 4 lamps (24 total).  The other train (hauling freight) has a lighted caboose, searchlight car, two aquarium cars (one of those motorized) and two Lionel railsounds box cars with the sound cranked up.  I also have a few accessories....a couple searchlight towers, two bridge lights, four street lights, and a crossing gate.  I have the TIU protected from the ZW with two 10-amp automotive fuses.  It seems that as long as I have the Torpedo smoke setting on low, everything runs fine.  I even placed a second MTH diesel on the freight track and still didn't have a problem.

Fishman86 posted:

Thanks everyone for your input.  After some experimentation, it seems that the Torpedo's maximum smoke volume setting was my problem.  With two trains running and the smoke volume on the low setting the train doesn't slow down and labor chuff.  However, when I switch the smoke volume setting to max while running two trains, the Torpedo will immediately slow down and begin to labor chuff.  It runs fine alone (when other train is off) with max smoke setting.  For reference, I have the ZW powering everything for this display as it is just a dual-track ceiling shelf layout (see below pictures).  When summing up the electrical load, I think I was pushing it.  The six 21" PRR passenger train cars each have 4 lamps (24 total).  The other train (hauling freight) has a lighted caboose, searchlight car, two aquarium cars (one of those motorized) and two Lionel railsounds box cars with the sound cranked up.  I also have a few accessories....a couple searchlight towers, two bridge lights, four street lights, and a crossing gate.  I have the TIU protected from the ZW with two 10-amp automotive fuses.  It seems that as long as I have the Torpedo smoke setting on low, everything runs fine.  I even placed a second MTH diesel on the freight track and still didn't have a problem.

I'd say that ZW is working pretty hard for the load you have. May need to consider adding some more power. (PCRR/DAVE is itching to give you a recommendation!)

Nice layout!

Sounds like the smoke unit is malfunctioning- the resistors are shorted out/drawing too much power.

Well it looks like you do not need to turn the lights on in that room at night time. Those trains sure do light everything up. looks good and enjoy

Fishman,

Looks great.  Glad your problem was solved.  I still recommend swapping out those lamps for LED's.

BTW, your overhead layout looks quite familiar, right down to the pool table.  I love that elevated track in the back.  I couldn't do it because the boxed beams are too close to the ceiling.  One question of great import, where's the BAR??  Haha.

This is an old pic of the beer/booze train.  There are now 12 such cars in this 22 car consist.  The poker guys love watching these guys pass by as they enjoy their ales and Jim Beam Manhattens.

Happy train running.

Jerry

JerryG,  funny you posted these pictures.  I was just looking at them the other day when I stumbled across them when I did a search for ceiling shelf layouts.  What an awesome basement.  Not sure what impressed me more....the ceiling layout or the bar and all the games.  While my basement is pretty big, I have toiled away at where to put a bar...can't seem to carve out enough space.  I'll need to post the ceiling shelf construction pictures and tag it.  Me and some buddies of mine built each dual-shelf segment (about 6' - 8' each segment) like an independent kitchen cabinet that hangs and fits together like a puzzle.

I am a little concerned that this new engine's smoke unit has a problem.  Odd thing is that it works just fine at max setting when run alone.

That's a lot of lights for the one ZW. Consider another transformer for the accessories. It'll free up power for the trains. On my layout I have a ZW for track power and a Z for all the other lights/accessories. Zs can be had for cheap. I paid $90 for mine refurbished from a local hobby shop.

TexasSP posted:

bmoran4 posted:

C W Burfle posted:

I believe that Nick was just referring to the slow acting breakers in the postwar ZW's. Yes, you could augment them with separate, fast-acting units but most folks probably just assume that the internal protection is adequate.

Therein lies the rub.
How many times has the subject of using external protection with ZW and KW transformers been discussed here?
If folks don't understand what is being discussed in those threads, or are unwilling to add the external protection, then they should not be using those transformers.

I get frustrated when people recommend $1000 of new transformer and command equipment when under $20 can get you adequate breakers and TVS diodes to use what one already has in serviceable condition.

Agreed,  I fail to see what a 750 dollar ZWL will provide me that the a couple of ZW's and fast blowing fuses won't all for under 250.  When it comes to the TIU, it doesn't seem to care much.  I have powered it with bricks and the ZW.

If I was to do anything different, I would probably buy more Z1000 bricks.

Well, this is an instance of only looking at your own scenario rather than any of the possible options that other users might be experiencing.

I'm running four separate loops and each can be populated with TMCC/Legacy locos or Postwar conventional locos. The ZW-L allows for remote control of all 4 of the handles so I can run those conventional loops almost the same way as the TMCC loops. I didn't have to buy four separate powermasters to do it. If I add 4 of those to a couple of postwar ZW's and separate breakers, I'm at about the same price as a ZW-L.