3 way, 4 way, and yard Switch direction identification by color question

@TomSuperO posted:

When designating switch direction for non main lines - ie switches entering yards, are there other colors used or is the same green / red format used?   

How do you do 3 way and 4 way switches? - switched direction green; everything else red?  Does anybody use any other LED colors for yard switches (white, blue, yellow)?  What's prototypical?

Tom       

Although it may not be obvious why, 3-way and 4-way switches do not exist in the real world.  Consequently, there is no prototypically correct color set, except to continue to use red and green only.

How does this really work?  instead of cramming two or three sets of diverging rails on top of the through track, and on top of each other, they're actually stretched out in a row one after the other.  The track gangs actually just lay out two or three independent standard switches sequentially in order to achieve two or three tracks diverging from the through path.

Why?  Real-world yards, and all rail lines in general, do not have to be shoe-horned into a tiny little space as we have to do on our layouts.  They can live with the extra linear distance that two or three standard switches in a row occupy when they're used to complete this kind of job.

No need for other colors in yards in the real world as a result -- just use red/green in each signal head or dwarf, applying one head or dwarf for each of the diverging paths/switches.

Mike

Thank You Mike.  I appreciate the explanation.  I didn't realize they didn't exist in the real world.  We are space limited , aren't we.  I'm starting to build a control panel with toggle switches and LED's to indicate switch position out on the layout (including the yards) and realized how do i show positions on these 3 & 4 ways that i can see at a glance.  I like your idea of using dwarf signals to show switch position, but on all our yards, the dwarfs would be facing away from us.   3  red/green bi-color LEd's (1 on each track on the control panel for a 3 way switch ) would work, but i've read here on the forum that bi-color LED's aren't compatible with DZ1000 switch controllers.  Wonder if they're compatible with the dz2500's.

Thanks Mike

Tom           

they exist!

I 3D printed both 3-way and 4-way switch controllers.

Left, Center and Right buttons have a micro-spst under each button head.  The SPST button switches go to a circuit that controls the three DZ2500C switch machines on the three-way Ross turnouts. The 3-way circuit requires 4 diodes that switch the specific set of DZ2500C machines to align with the direction desired.

The 4-way is like the 3-way with an additional button. Here you are controlling 4 switch machines that are synched for the 4 directions.

note the key-way that keeps the buttons aligned vertically. The spring in the SpSt keeps the buttons up.

Controlling a 4-way switch with one Momentary switch for each path. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum

For 4 way switch circuit see link above

Ross Custom 3-Way turnout pains-- 3D print of 3-way direction switch | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum

for more detail on the 3-way controller see link above

@AlanRail posted:

note the key-way that keeps the buttons aligned vertically. The spring in the SpSt keeps the buttons up.

Alan,  very interesting.  All my other Ross switches are equipped with dz1000's. I'm comfortable with how these will be set up, controlled and lit on the control panel and at the fascia.  I was trying to figure out how to use just 3 led's to indicate 3 way switch position on the control panel and reduce the switch clutter on the control panel.  Bi-color Led's seemed like a possible solution, but i heard  that bi-color Led's and DZ1000's aren't compatible - hence the willingness to use the Dz2500's instead.  This seems like an even better solution for my 3 way and 4 ways switches.

1) can u mount these (under) in a lexan control panel or are they strictly for on the layout at the fascia.

2) I assume the 3 way would have 3 diff led's  - would each of these led's be bi-color?

3) what type of Diodes are needed and how would it all be wired.   I'm not electrical, so i'd need a wiring diag

Tom

Alan,  I'm reading thru the other posts u directed me to - for the 4 way video. Let me chew on this wiring set up a while.

Tom

Alan, those are some really great solutions for Ross multi-switches.

Tom, about your interest in using bi-color LED position indicators, @Rod Stewart created a some designs for DZ1000 machines that include bi-color LEDs.  Here's a link to his topic about these:

UPDATE: Led Turnout Position Indicator For Control Panel Mounting

Tom

the reason these were 3D designed to be surface-mounted is because I have an existing control panel.

This elaborate enclosure is hiding three momentary contact switches. No reason that you cannot provide 3 holes in your panel along the three paths for these switches to mount (under) a Lexan or acrylic (I use acrylic on my laser-cutter} control panel; then add adjacent bicolor LEDs. Same is true for the 4-way.

the problem I have had with two LEDs, is that even set to one direction, both LEDs are lit, the undirected LED is slightly illuminated not completely off.

a Ross, or Lionel or MTH turnouts are actually a large locking relays.  the DZ-2500Cs have yellow and green wires used for non-derailing but can also be connected to a DZ-1008 relay to control or set LEDs. See Ross and DZ's websites for circuit diagrams for 3-way switches, too.

@SteveH posted:

Alan, those are some really great solutions for Ross multi-switches.

Tom, about your interest in using bi-color LED position indicators, @Rod Stewart created a some designs for DZ1000 machines that include bi-color LEDs.  Here's a link to his topic about these:

UPDATE: Led Turnout Position Indicator For Control Panel Mounting

Thanks Steve,  I've been working with Rod to experiment with his boards for my control panel. We're trying a dif diode for the green LED and also trying some 5mm diodes. I havent discussed the 3 way switches w him because i believe he said the bicolor diodes weren't compatible w his boards. I'll be in touch w him to discuss this in detail.

Tom   

@AlanRail posted:

Tom

the reason these were 3D designed to be surface-mounted is because I have an existing control panel.

This elaborate enclosure is hiding three momentary contact switches. No reason that you cannot provide 3 holes in your panel along the three paths for these switches to mount (under) a Lexan or acrylic (I use acrylic on my laser-cutter} control panel; then add adjacent bicolor LEDs. Same is true for the 4-way.

the problem I have had with two LEDs, is that even set to one direction, both LEDs are lit, the undirected LED is slightly illuminated not completely off.

a Ross, or Lionel or MTH turnouts are actually a large locking relays.  the DZ-2500Cs have yellow and green wires used for non-derailing but can also be connected to a DZ-1008 relay to control or set LEDs. See Ross and DZ's websites for circuit diagrams for 3-way switches, too.

Thank You Alan.  I may be interested in talking to you further about these.

Tom

As TomSuper O mentioned we have been working together to fine tune indicators for his Ross-DZ1000 switches. He also plans on using a 3-way and a 4-way four way in his yard, so he asked me how these indicators could be used for those guys.

A little background: So far I have indicator pcb's in place for Lionel PW, Fastrack, and DZ-1000 switch machines. The first two allow use of either a single bi-color red/green led, or optionally two separate leds as desired. The leds can be small 2mm post type, 3mm, or 5mm depending on user preference. (Tom is currently experimenting with a couple of sample 5mm boards I sent him) Depending on the panel material thickness and type, the leds can be simply poked through the panel from below, or housed in suitable bezels for a more finished look. Best visibility is simply poked up through the panel.

The DZ-1000 machines do not allow use of bi-color leds because of the way they are wired internally. So these boards are two-led only. There are two types A&B, the first for RH turnouts, the second for LH. There is only one board design, it's reversible depending on the switch type, See below finished boards, these are built with 3mm leds.

I don't want to interfere with any of the above discussions or plans for various indicators. In fact I think Alanrail's indicator housing looks great.

Here is a re-cap of the discussion I had with Tom about optionally using the boards pictured above: The 4 way is easy enough. It has 3 machines I believe, so 3 two-led boards would work fine; one for each DZ-1000 machine. For the lead-in switch there is no straight-through position, so you would have to make an arbitrary choice as to which direction is red and which is green. No big deal. The other two ladder track switches are easy enough, just like any other DZ-1000.

The 3 way is a bit more of a challenge. Only 2 DZ-1000 machines so 2 two-led boards would work I think. You can have the left switch set to left turnout (red led), or the right switch set to right turnout (red led), easy enough. With both switches set to green you get straight-through. The setting with both set to turnout (red) is a no-no and will cause a derailment as I understand it.

To solve this problem I have read that there is a way to hook them up using a relay, such that there can never be both switches set to turnout. The basic logic is that say the right switch is accidentally left to turnout from a previous train. Now if you select the left switch to turnout, the right switch automatically returns to straight. And vice versa. If both switches are set to straight, that of course is allowed. No action taken.

Attached below is a detailed discussion for building and using the DZ-1000 boards, just for reference. Hope this helps!

Multi-way switches were common in US narrow gauge railroads.  I saw my first 3-way at the East Broad Top.  Here's a link to a 5-way in New Zealand.

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfr...7355102/0switch-.jpg

Jan