4 z1000 bricks vs 1 z4000

Marty,

 I learned I would need to manually cycle the throttles each power cycle

the way to beat that requirement is to use a Z4000 Remote Commander Receiver with Z4K Tracks and adjust fixed channel voltage right from the DCS Remote.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

I do not think you will even come close to tripping the house outlet. At 15 Amps AC, the total power out of that socket is around 1800 V.A which can translate to many many AC amps on your layout. Me thinks!

That's one of the things I'm missing. thanks.

An advantage to having the Z4000 is that it's circuit breaker protection is somewhat faster than the ones in the bricks. This can make a difference in some situations. Likewise, the Lionel 180 brick is very fast...

Marty you need not worry I have a customer that has 8 - Z1000 plus 2 - Z4000 on one power strip has never trip the breaker , the one thing I like about the Z4000 they have a heaver breaker to the handle 12amp verse Z1000 only has a 6amp breaker , I have 4-Z4000 on my layout I have one on a shelve I use the remote that Barry mention you can run 3- Z4000 with that remote .

Guy

Guy,

 I use the remote that Barry mention you can run 3- Z4000 with that remote .

Actually, there's a "trick" that allows running an unlimited number of Z4000's using Z4000 Remote Commanders and Z4K Tracks. It's discussed in detail on page 98 of The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Thanks Barry I will look that up in the book .

Guy

PH-180's are very nice and a really great value for power vs cost. Arguably possibly the best and fastest breakers available in a toy train transformer. You could probably run 7 or 8 safely at full power on a 120 volt, 15 amp breaker (1800 V.A. = 1800 watts so 10 in theory, but there is some loss of efficiency). With even 8 PH-180's it's extremely unlikely all of them would ever be at full power at the same time. If anyone has ever tripped their 15 amp breaker running trains, TommyZ could be the only person to have ever done it? (Was recently watching some of his youtube videos.)

A quick eBay search turned up PH-180s and Z1Ks for roughly the same money. You're comparing a 180W to 100W transformer. For the $$$, I'd go with the PH-180 too.

That said, I have a Z1K and would rate the breaker as "very fast". For my home layout, I have two PH-135s, primarily for the great deal I got for the pair.

Gilly

he way to beat that requirement is to use a Z4000 Remote Commander Receiver with Z4K Tracks and adjust fixed channel voltage right from the DCS Remote.

Do be aware that when using this device, which is excellent and I highly recommend it, you do not get a readout of amperage on the Z4000.  You do get a voltage readout.

Also be aware that the device may be hard to find.

Marty R,

    I do not like the Bricks at all, and you are starting to see some of the reasons why.

Do as Barry suggest with the Z4K or invest in a couple old ZW's and KW's, you can set them on your hard to get at shelf with the handles set to what ever voltage you desire, and run everything with the DCS hand held remote, use a remote control Etekcity outlet switch to initiate power on your full layout.  Remember the Scott 10 Amp Breakers for your ZW's & KW's and have fun.  I use a combination of the Z4K, ZW's & KW's most all the time.

PCRR/Dave

Just as a FYI and a FWIW, I believe the PH-180's have much improved breakers over the PH-135's.

You are very correct, sir. I know deep down inside that I should have popped for the PH-180s. Maybe later. For now, I haven't smoked anything.

Gilly

Good luck, so far I haven't either. Keep the 'No Smoking' signs in place on the layout!

The PH180 has a circuit breaker that's the "best in breed" of any transformer I've seen.  I'm not sure why Dave doesn't like the bricks, for a command only situation, they're dirt simple and trouble-free.  If you have DCS, you also have conventional operation with the variable channels with the bricks.

I have both the bricks and the Z4000.  The Z4000 is on the shelf and is used on my test bench, the bricks power the TIU.  I turn them on, and they're at the rated voltage.  No need to screw around setting voltage on power up like I have to with the Z4000.

Guns,

   You can pick up a couple old ZW's, with 4 channels, and if you want, set them to what ever voltage you desire to run your trains, and still have 2 channels for others uses, and the cost is just about the same as the bricks, heck the KW's you can pick up for $50.00 now rebuilt.  No doubt you have to put the Z4K where you can get to her, because of the rotation built into her however.  IMO Bricks are a big waste of money, when it comes to over all powering of a layout.

PCRR/Dave

In fact I use the Z4K, ZW's & KW's but no Bricks, why limit yourself, always over power your layout.  I might just pick up a new ZW-L in the near future.

Dave, the PW ZW is not nearly the same power output as two bricks.  Real power output from the PW-ZW is around 220-230 watts, the PH180 actually puts out 180 watts.  The PH180 bricks have a far better circuit breaker than any of the transformers or the add-on thermal breakers that are so popular.  The only breaker that compares is the PSX-AC with adds a significant bump in price.  I find the bricks far more convenient to live with.  There's still room for a variable transformer for powering accessories, on that point we can agree.

Obviously, everyone has their opinion on how things should be done, and as long as it works for you, that's all that matters.  We'll just agree to disagree on the issue of the bricks vs. the old transformers.

Around here the old transformers are much more expensive than the PH-180's. I can buy 2-PH-180's brand new at my LHS for about $160-$180. A 50-70 year old re-furbished ZW is over $200. We haven't seen the price drops others have. You guys back East where all the trains are have it good! If I could get a ZW for $50, I would not use it for my trains anyway, but I would use it for accessory power and stuff like that.

Now with that said, I would take a new ZW-L in a heartbeat, but the bricks are still a much better deal. However, the show stopper is the price of a new ZW-L. Around here you could get close to 8-PH-180's for the price of a new ZW-L. Used is a viable option for some, but I have really not had good luck buying anything used, so I prefer to purchase new.

rtr12,

  I believe you misread my post, the rebuilt KW's around here can be purchased for about $50.00, the 275 ZW's go for about $150.00 at the train shows from a good vendor. 

Every once in a while you can pick up an older 250 ZW for about $90.00-$100.00 at a train show, depending on the vendor.  To me this completely eliminates the purchase of any brick.  Guns has always liked the bricks, I just think they limit things way to much for the cost you have to pay for them, now if they were about 1/2 the cost, that would be a different matter.  As Guns has pointed out, the great thing about the Brick is the breaker, darn good engineering in that respect. I totally agree about the cost of the ZW-L, I can purchase 2 or even 3 original ZW's for the cost of a new ZW-L and the old ZW's run the DCS just as well.  If I could find one for a reasonable cost I would own a ZW-L, I do like them.

PCRR/Dave 

PCRR/Dave,

I sure did miss that KW part, thought you were getting ZW's for $50. I feel much better now, at $150 for a ZW your prices there are not a great deal better than they are around here for $200 plus refurbished. I think the last one my LHS had (may still have it?) was $225, but they have had them for around $200 I think. The 2 PH-180's I bought new at my LHS were $80 each about 3 years or so ago, so that's 360 watts with excellent breakers for about the same price as an old ZW, with at least half again as much output power. Nothing extra to buy. An even bigger savings for me here in my area.

I have one old conventional train that I have only run one time just to see if it still worked. It was my daughters from about 1982 (has a 15VA transformer), so actually it's not mine, it's hers. Everything else I have is DCS or Legacy command control, so I don't need any handles. It is unlikely, but if I ever do want to do any conventional operation (like my daughter's train) I can use my DCS system's variable channels. So the only need or use for an old transformer I would ever have would possibly be for accessories and so far I have a Z1000 for that. I didn't have any old transformers when I got back in the hobby a few years ago, so I started from scratch on everything. Got a lot of information, tips and advice here too.

So I guess that puts me squarely in the gunrunnerjohn camp being a believer of PH-180 bricks for track power. I also agree with him about getting the most bang for your buck with the PH-180s. Now, if I could just figure out how to get multiple voltages out of the PH-180's I might consider them for accessories and lighting power as well. Maybe GRJ will be along with another tip for doing this, or reason why that's a bad idea and I should not be doing this?   

You really want variable voltage out of the PH180? 

You could pick up a couple of the MTH Z500 controllers that are floating around, a few have passed through my hands.  Those would allow you to set the voltage for accessories.

Another option for DC is the very inexpensive switching power supplies on eBay as long as you can use DC.

You can also find the ZW-C pretty reasonably at times, that will do the trick.

If you have a lot of accessories, I can see picking up a ZW or two if you get them at an attractive price for the loads of variable outputs.  I know someone on the forum rebuilds them and sells them in the $160-165 range, that's a pretty good deal for a totally rebuilt ZW if you're so inclined.

Marty,

The most economical, the simplest, and perhaps the best (technological) solution is a PH180.  You can set the voltage delivered and forget about it.  And it's got the very fast breakers.  If you can live without the meter (of course you can put a cheap one in the circuit), you will have simple ON/OFF control at the power strip.  A Z-4000 and / or a Remote Commander will work, but that's massive overkill and violates the KISS principle. 

Best,

George 

The thought was that a PH-180 would probably power a LOT of accessories and other items. Even at the $160-$165 range plus shipping for old ZW's, that's about 2 PH-180s and a lot more power. I have a couple of Z500's, but I don't have the controllers. I also have a Lionel accessory transformer, the small 1.8 amp one. Are the ebay switching power supplies wall warts that you are talking about, like Arduino power supplies and the like in 5, 9, 12 VDC etc.? If so I have a few of those too, and I think in the 5, 9, & 12 volt models.

I have actually been thinking about trying DC using the ebay AC/DC to DC converters. Already have a few, even got some with adjustment knob and LED readout for output voltage. I have been fiddling with some Atlas switch machines on DC and they seem to work better. Someone had posted that they were using DC with them. Had some that were really weak so I replaced them with new ones on the layout. The weak ones seem to work quite well on the bench with DC, much better than they were working on the layout with AC.

Haven't really got a lot of accessories yet, but have been thinking about adding some. I don't know what all will work on DC? I found an old Lionel crossing gate from the '80s with my daughters old train set, one of the extra large ones, maybe toy train or standard gauge size? It really buzzed when I tried it out with AC to see if it worked. Tried it on DC and it worked perfectly with no noise, buzzing, or humming at all. Very quiet. Impressive!

Great points on many options here. I'm actually glad there are multiple opinions. If, once again, I was the only one that didn't get the answer, I'd have been bummed

Marty R,

   There is no actual right or wrong answer to powering your layout, I was taught long ago to over power my layouts for both train & accessory control.  For me that means

decently powerful transformers with multi channels.  The very least I would ever invest in would be a Z1000, and IMO, even that is a might small.

Scotty we need more Power!

PCRR/Dave

Agreed that there is no one "right" way to power your layout.

Since DC was brought up, I will tell you what I'm doing.  Wherever possible, I am using DC to power lights and accessories that will accept it.  As has been pointed out by several posters, small switching DC power supplies are available inexpensively ($10-25) on eBay or electrical supply houses.  I have one for 3VDC, one for 5VDC, and one for 12VDC accessories and lights.  I have created a spreadsheet that computes the loading (number and voltages, amperes) for each supply.  If you use LEDs, you can power a very large number of them with just 1 supply.  And all the power supplies can be plugged into that single power strip - 1 big On/Off capability.  These power supplies can be mounted on a plywood panel so they don't take up table space. 

More to chew on,

George

Jumping in with my 2 cents...

I use 4 or 5 Z-1000's on my small home layout (12' x 12').  They work great and are easily opened and modified to connect a wire to the horn button so that kids can blow the horns from remote locations around the layout.  Nice size too!

For DCS/TMCC, I have a 180W PH-1 and it is direct wired to my TIU.  Breaker is very fast, plenty of power.

I select conventional/DCS with a DPDT switch for each track loop.  Works great!

On my DCS modular layout, I power 3 track loops with 1 PH-1 180W.  I got tired of changing fuses, so the breakers are much easier.

For accessories, I have 240W commercial 12V power transformers... just one is needed for each layout, plus there is no load on the control transformers.

Ed

ps. As John said, no reason why you cant connect a bunch of Z-1000, 750,500 contollers to a PH-1 180W brick.  Done that too, works well!

I also agree that there is no one right way to power a layout.  BUT, there are wrong ways:  failing to have any functional overload protection of the correct capacity limit.

I do throw out another question for consideration:  Is it ok to use DC on an accessory that has a solenoid?  Lionel over the years has used many, and they buzz annoyingly on AC.  But, due to impedance, the apparent resistance of an AC coil on a core is greater than the actual resistance of the wire comprising the coil.  Will a Lionel solenoid run on DC of equal voltage to what it would be fed on AC, without overheating?

Robert,

Will a Lionel solenoid run on DC of equal voltage to what it would be fed on AC, without overheating?

Yes, they will. I've been running al of my trackside stuff with solenoids (crossing gates, gateman, etc.) on recrified DC for years.

Generally speaking, a coil designed for AC should be DC powered at a lower voltage to keep it within it's rated power handling capability.  With model train stuff, it's usually not critical, but it could overheat the solenoid faster, if it is left powered for a long time.

Example: a solenoid triggered by an isolated track section that has a train parked on it, so the solenoid is continually powered.

Also, the solenoid core could become magnetized. (as in permanently magnetic).

Just wanted to "rectify" the thinking on this!

Ed

If you ever have one magnetized, just hit it with a few shots of AC and all is forgiven.

GRJ, in your bag of tricks, do you have any schematic for a time-delay relay that will drop out after a given period of being powered?  No problem if the power is cut, that's easy  to do, but what if power is stating on?  Another example of where needed would be powering an uncoupling track through an AIU ACC circuit, and having toggle rather than off-upon-release.

RJR,

These are DC, I think they do what you are asking. They were recently discussed in another thread. Power can remain on and there is a trigger that activates the adjustable time relay. DC Timer Relay 

However, I imagine GRJ will probably have something better here shortly.

Here is another that I believe operates by cycling power to it which activates the timer relay. Power Activated Timer Relay

So many electronic gadgets on ebay, so little time...(and such lousy sequences of operation.

I have one of each and can fiddle with them to provide more info if you need it.

And then there was this one that does about everything but slice bread. stan2004 will have to explain this if you want more detail, I think he has it mastered and I don't have this one figured out. Multi Function Timer Relay

Actually, for the price, it's hard to fault that delay module.  With so many choices of cheap circuits on eBay, I've never felt the need to develop my own.

Just looking at the link, I can't tell if the relay (1) delays in pulling in, (2) delays in dropping out, or (3) what I seek, turns off after an interval and will not turn on again until power to the coil is turned off and then on again.

I don't know about a power cycle, but I suspect a search of the stuff on eBay will turn up the functionality you desire.

Did you look at the Multi-Function Timer Relay?  That looks like it does everything but mix the drinks.

The first linked device works off a trigger that starts the adjustable timer for the specified time then shuts off. The timer works the relay. The device itself needs to remain powered. With another closure of the trigger contact the timer will repeat it's cycle.

The second linked device works when power is turned on to the device. It can either be set to energize the relay on power up for the specified time set, then de-energize the relay (device can remain powered and will need a power cycle to repeat I this mode). Or wait the specified time set before energizing the relay and once energized the relay will remain energized (the device needs to be powered down in this mode to de-energize the relay).

As gunrunnerjohn says, the 3rd device does just about anything and we need either he or stan2004 to help cipher that one, They are both much better at this than me. I believe stan2004 posted some better instructions for the Multi Function Device in another thread here: Cycle Timer Needed

I use brick via Power Master and ZW-C.  I still like raising voltage manually via the CAB-1.  If something is wrong I can catch it at lower than higher voltage.

I strictly use the Z-4000 on the bench.  I always start a PS-2 board up around 10V watching current.  Also a shorted light fet can be throttled down quickly before a bulb is burned out or worst.

The throttle also comes in handy on a test track for a run away engine.  You don't need to panic, just simply lower the throttle to a manageable track voltage.   G

I use a old 1033 on my bench, and I've added a 2A breaker box to the output of the transformer.  I don't run anything on the test bench that needs more than 2 amps as a rule, and I like a low threshold for a trip in case something is wrong.

For the test track, I have the TIU wired in, just press the red button and everything stops.  I don't recall ever having to panic. 

Panic is on the club layout when the Legacy base isn't on and you do a couple of power cycles!  The second power cycle, all the TMCC/Legacy engines wake up and start forward at warp speed!  If you have the turntable engine house power switches all on, it would be a real mess!