6466W Whistle Problem

Well chances are in the 50s kids were having fun with it with that being said few things to check for poor performance would be.

Clean both contact points lightly and carefully with emery cloth and perhaps adjust very little at a time closer or further away and test.

Check all solder joints especially looking were the stranded wire meets solder  and the one on the pickup roller.

Check and or replace brush springs if overheated at some point in time that will weaken them, clean brushes and commutator. Put small drop of oil on shaft coming out thru brushplate and test.

You can blow through chamber and here if its clogged kids will be kids and stuff something in there.

Good luck.

  If you can, try the tender with another transformer, or maybe a D cell battery, I have 2 that wont work with diodes. What kind of diode did you use? (part#)

You might have a coil short; intermediate, tempurature based, arising from repeated heat expansion or cycle vibration wear (transformer hum). Bad points (as stated). And maybe a need for lube. 

The whistle motor needs the same care as any other PW Lionel motor. Brushes, oil by impeller and brush end on the armature shaft both.

The transformer has three positions on the whistle controller, one is normal non whistling operation, second is DC to the track to lift the whistle relay, third is a DC and AC mix to keep the relay closed but reduce current through the rectifier. If the whistle start to blow, then drops out, you may be looking at a problem with the third step. It could be contacts on the whistle controller in the transformer. To check the whistle relay apply 10 VAC to the track.  Then apply 1.1 VDC to the track at the same time. This should cause the relay to close.  Then reduce the DC voltage to 0.5 volts.  The relay should remain closed. Lionel considered this the minimum acceptable criteria for a whistle relay. If the relay test good, then connect a DC volt meter to the wiring at the relay. Try to blow the whistle using the transformer. The DC voltage readings should exceed those listed above. If not work back to the transformer and see where the DC signal is being lost. 

If the relay is operating properly, but the whistle is still a problem, there are many connections in the tender that could be the problems.  Could be anything from dirty wheels to the contact through the whistle relay armature hinge. 

My bet is the problem is with the transformer, not the whistle relay.

Did you test the tender by itself or with it's engine.
The transformer needs a certain load to generate enough DC offset to operate the relay.
If the relay closes then opens as you operate the whistle control, that can be a sign of not having enough load on the transformer.

Adriatic posted:

  If you can, try the tender with another transformer, or maybe a D cell battery, I have 2 that wont work with diodes. What kind of diode did you use? (part#)

You might have a coil short; intermediate, tempurature based, arising from repeated heat expansion or cycle vibration wear (transformer hum). Bad points (as stated). And maybe a need for lube. 

The whistle motor needs the same care as any other PW Lionel motor. Brushes, oil by impeller and brush end on the armature shaft both.

Got the diode from Justtrains.com, it's a 16amp stud same type in used in the 1033 rebuild post on this site.  The relay activates but after a couple of uses it will not remain closed and get a lot of arcing on the points.  Cleaned the points, motor brushes, commutator and oiled it's shaft.  Only transformer I have, the relay did not work at all until I replaced the diode.  I'm leaning to a coil short due the obvious previous overheating, cooked the varnish off the windings thus reducing it's effectiveness.  Based on the fact that it works OK when cold I'm leaning in that direction.  Just looking for other opinions in case I'm missing something.  Justtrains has rebuilt relay's for around $25.

David Johnston posted:

The transformer has three positions on the whistle controller, one is normal non whistling operation, second is DC to the track to lift the whistle relay, third is a DC and AC mix to keep the relay closed but reduce current through the rectifier. If the whistle start to blow, then drops out, you may be looking at a problem with the third step. It could be contacts on the whistle controller in the transformer. To check the whistle relay apply 10 VAC to the track.  Then apply 1.1 VDC to the track at the same time. This should cause the relay to close.  Then reduce the DC voltage to 0.5 volts.  The relay should remain closed. Lionel considered this the minimum acceptable criteria for a whistle relay. If the relay test good, then connect a DC volt meter to the wiring at the relay. Try to blow the whistle using the transformer. The DC voltage readings should exceed those listed above. If not work back to the transformer and see where the DC signal is being lost. 

If the relay is operating properly, but the whistle is still a problem, there are many connections in the tender that could be the problems.  Could be anything from dirty wheels to the contact through the whistle relay armature hinge. 

My bet is the problem is with the transformer, not the whistle relay.

Thanks, I'll try the tests you suggested.  The relay did not work at all until I replaced the original rectifier plate with a 16 amp stud diode and 1.8 ohm 10 watt resistor from Justtrains.com.   When I opened the transformer the original resistor wire had been cut out and replaced with just a piece of hookup wire.    Do you know what the voltage should be at the transformer tap connected to the diode?

C W Burfle posted:

Did you test the tender by itself or with it's engine.
The transformer needs a certain load to generate enough DC offset to operate the relay.
If the relay closes then opens as you operate the whistle control, that can be a sign of not having enough load on the transformer.

Yep, found that mention in an old post I read on the form.  Worked much better when I put the engine on the track, that's how got the results described.  I assumed rightly or wrongly that the load can be with the engine in neutral.

 I assumed rightly or wrongly that the load can be with the engine in neutral.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
And sometimes, even an engine running light won't be enough.

There are three secondary coils on the 1033 transformer. They are two 5 volt and one 11 volt coils. If you are using the A and U terminal, one of the 5 volt coils is to give a minimum of 5 volts when starting.  This is to cause the E-unit to operate before the locomotive starts to move.  The 11 volt coil is the one the sliding contact slides on to provide variable voltage. The 5 and 11 volt coils together produce the 5 to 16 variable voltage used to run the train.  The second 5 volt coil is cut in by the whistle handle to compensate for the additional load placed on the transformer by the whistle motor and voltage drop across the rectifier.  

The resistor in parallel with the recitifer and is there to reduce the current passing through the old style rectifier after the whistle relay picks up.  This was to prevent it from overheating. Due to the nature of a resistor, with a light load more of the power will go through the resister.  As the load increases more power will go through the rectifier increasing the DC component.  The 1033 transformer is good for 5 amps. With a modern 16 amp diode my guess is that the parallel resistor serves no purpose and the dropping out of the whistle relay might stop if it was removed.  

The whistle relay is a "slug relay".  The copper washers make the whistle relay coil act like a transformer and short out the AC voltage to prevent it from operating the relay.  This has no effect on the DC power since a transformer will not work on DC, so only the DC is available in the coil to cause the contacts to close. The coil is shorting out the AC power all the time the train is running. In order to do this without overheating, there lots of turns in the coil of very small wire. This keeps the heat down while providing enough magnetism to operate the contacts. I doubt that the coil has been damaged due to heat since this is exactly what it is designed to prevent.  To test the relay see if you can check it with DC as I indicated above.  The other test Lionel describes is the relay should not close on AC power below 28 volts.  

For better electrical contact slide thin sandpaper between the two "hinge" points on the rear end of the contact points lever

The 1.8 resistor is ment to replace the original resistance wire if I'm not mistaken.

Check the relay chassis ground area if the bracket isn't spot welded.

With the post war voltsge boost, 1033=15v +5v boost - 1.5v diode drop= 18.5v or 11v+5v-1.5v=14.5v..

Some suggestion if you do a lot of whistle testing.  I process a lot of lcomotives and transformers through my shop and on my several test loops.  For whistle testing, I always use the same transformer, an RW with a known good whistle control circuit.  I also try to get full value from any transformer that I hapen to pick up.  For that I have a tender with a known good whistle that never leaves my workbench, and that tender is always used for testing a transformer.

Thanks, unfortunately only have one 1033 and a little cheap 40 watt with a 600 diesel set from 1955 (no whistle circuit).  Wish I had a second unit, thinking about picking up another 1033 with less wear or a ZW or LW.  My 1033 has seen a lot of use/abuse, the insulator top plate is pretty worn as is the mounting hole for the whistle/direction lever.  Had it's share of shorts from metal tinsel on the tracks .

I would recommend an RW or similar if you are going to work with a variety of locomotives.  A few weeks ago I was working on an old F-3 and using my 1033.  I could not get the expected speed fromit and noticed that the 1033 has a 16 volt max.  With an RW at 19 volts, performance was much better. 

I've also got a ZW for my main test loop, but it's bulky and heavy.  For the workbench, an RW is better - maybe an LW is just as good but don't have any experience with them.. I have only equipment from 1945 to '49 and a bit of prewar.

David Johnston posted:

There are three secondary coils on the 1033 transformer. They are two 5 volt and one 11 volt coils. If you are using the A and U terminal, one of the 5 volt coils is to give a minimum of 5 volts when starting.  This is to cause the E-unit to operate before the locomotive starts to move.  The 11 volt coil is the one the sliding contact slides on to provide variable voltage. The 5 and 11 volt coils together produce the 5 to 16 variable voltage used to run the train.  The second 5 volt coil is cut in by the whistle handle to compensate for the additional load placed on the transformer by the whistle motor and voltage drop across the rectifier.  

The resistor in parallel with the recitifer and is there to reduce the current passing through the old style rectifier after the whistle relay picks up.  This was to prevent it from overheating. Due to the nature of a resistor, with a light load more of the power will go through the resister.  As the load increases more power will go through the rectifier increasing the DC component.  The 1033 transformer is good for 5 amps. With a modern 16 amp diode my guess is that the parallel resistor serves no purpose and the dropping out of the whistle relay might stop if it was removed.  

The whistle relay is a "slug relay".  The copper washers make the whistle relay coil act like a transformer and short out the AC voltage to prevent it from operating the relay.  This has no effect on the DC power since a transformer will not work on DC, so only the DC is available in the coil to cause the contacts to close. The coil is shorting out the AC power all the time the train is running. In order to do this without overheating, there lots of turns in the coil of very small wire. This keeps the heat down while providing enough magnetism to operate the contacts. I doubt that the coil has been damaged due to heat since this is exactly what it is designed to prevent.  To test the relay see if you can check it with DC as I indicated above.  The other test Lionel describes is the relay should not close on AC power below 28 volts.  

Bingo, removed the resistor and the whistle starts and keeps running.  After removing the transformer cover I noticed that there was a  small distance between when the large post engages (DC current) but the second smaller post was not yet connected the whistle ran fine.  But once the whistle lever connected the resistor into the circuit,  the relay chattered and dropped.  Also, the whistle works now even with no engine load on the transformer but with the resistor still in place and the engine running the whistle was working better than just sitting in neutral.  Voltage checks showed 11+ volts at max power, 5.5 volts on the lead going to the diode and resistor, measures 1.5 DC when the whistle was engaged.   Picture of 1033 with well worn top plate and resistor removed. 

 Thank you and all the other contributors for their suggestions and assistance.

Were you planning to leave the resistor out?

The comment about its function above isn't quite complete. When the rectifier is inserted into the circuit, the output is changed to half wave D.C., and the effective voltage the train 'sees' is cut in half, so it slows down. As the whistle control handle continues to move, the resistor is placed in parallel with the rectifier, which allows most of the A.C. through, so the train gets most of its voltage, and does not slow down. Only a small D.C. offset continues to be created by the rectifier. 

Your problem could be that too little D.C. offset is being generated, which usually means that a new rectifier is needed. But I'd clean all the contacts first.

This is described in the Lionel Service Manual, which can be found online at the Olsens parts web site. See page 3

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=630

"Insufficient offset" 

  I had forgot I discovered two diodes worked on my whistles.

I had run out or 6a diodes

For those that are interested, there is a table of "pickup" (handle part way) and "holding" (handle all the way) voltages for all Postwar Lionel multitrol transformers on the pages below. These pages come from the 5F test bench instructions.
It must be noted that the voltages are specific to the dummy load that is built into the 5F test bench.  Those voltages change with the load, which is the reason a tender alone often won't work, and sometimes not even a lightly loaded locomotive will provide enough load.

I built the 5F whistle test out of surplus radio components years ago. I will try to look up the load later.

The charts also list circuit breaker loads and trip times.
When I look at the long trip times, it reinforces the idea that external fast acting circuit breakers are needed on all the larger transformers. (I use them on ALL transformers).

I built the 5F whistle test out of surplus radio components years ago. I will try to look up the load later.

According to the 5F drawings the dummy load consists of two resistors (one fixed 25 ohm and one adjustable 10 ohm), wired in such a way that the pickup voltage is measured against both in series, and the holding voltage is measured against the 10 ohm adjustable only. I do not see a ohms specification for the adjustable one.

That is how my home made one is built.

Since the 10 ohm resistor is listed as adjustable, I put a meter on the 5D I have in my shop (should be the same as a 5F), and got readings of 33.4 ohms (pickup) and 8.2 ohms (holding). The adjustable resistor in this unit does not seem to have been touched.

If anyone would like to build one, attached is the drawing for a 5D. This drawing specifies the smaller resistor as being set to 8.3 ohms, close to the readings I got on my bench. (I did not realize the 5D drawing gave a specification until just now). I am going to check how my homemade one is set.

Some folks might notice that the test bench has a choke wired as a load to the internal transformer. I believe it is there to put a load on the internal transformer so that whistling tenders can be tested without any other load.

VERY interesting reading, especially since I just encountered the same exact issue only moments ago on a 234W tender. The whistle motor runs great, comes up to speed quickly, but then shuts off after 2-3 seconds - dropping back slightly on the whistle handle restarts the whistle, then advancing the handle where it once again runs for 2-3 seconds. The only difference here is that just sitting on powered track, the whistle relay emits a sound very similar to an e-unit, just not as loud as they can be. This all occurs on an unmodified 1033 transformer.

I just put it away in my stash of "future repairs" so I won't be going back t check it on my ZW any time soon, but I will definitely keep a record of this discussion!!!

C W Burfle posted:

Were you planning to leave the resistor out?

The comment about its function above isn't quite complete. When the rectifier is inserted into the circuit, the output is changed to half wave D.C., and the effective voltage the train 'sees' is cut in half, so it slows down. As the whistle control handle continues to move, the resistor is placed in parallel with the rectifier, which allows most of the A.C. through, so the train gets most of its voltage, and does not slow down. Only a small D.C. offset continues to be created by the rectifier. 

Your problem could be that too little D.C. offset is being generated, which usually means that a new rectifier is needed. But I'd clean all the contacts first.

This is described in the Lionel Service Manual, which can be found online at the Olsens parts web site. See page 3

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=630

Thanks, right now the resistor is out, at this point I think I'm going to try and find another transformer and see what happens.   My experience with diodes is they usually work or fail and the 16 amp diode is brand new.  Definitely see the effect of the relay dropping when the resistor is added to the circuit.    It's been a long time since the whistle ever worked properly.  The fact that the original resistor wire was removed tells me my father or his brother figured out that would make the whistle work again.  That modification was done when the original rectifier was still in place.  Need a tie breaker by using a known good transformer to see how the whistle behaves.  Thanks for the service manual, I used software I have to assemble the multiple pages into a single PDF and it's attached.

GeoPeg posted:

VERY interesting reading, especially since I just encountered the same exact issue only moments ago on a 234W tender. The whistle motor runs great, comes up to speed quickly, but then shuts off after 2-3 seconds - dropping back slightly on the whistle handle restarts the whistle, then advancing the handle where it once again runs for 2-3 seconds. The only difference here is that just sitting on powered track, the whistle relay emits a sound very similar to an e-unit, just not as loud as they can be. This all occurs on an unmodified 1033 transformer.

I just put it away in my stash of "future repairs" so I won't be going back t check it on my ZW any time soon, but I will definitely keep a record of this discussion!!!

Identical, most of my tests have been with the 6466W sitting on a couple sections of track by itself.  I think what you described is chattering of the relay as it try's to maintain it's contacts.  With the resistor in place, works as expected for 2 or 3 tries and then the relay will either just chatter or no long engage.  Once I find another transformer I'll update this post.  

I live about 30 miles from Nicholas Smith trains, if I cannot find a friend with a transformer locally I'll take the 6466w down and see how it works on one of the tracks he has setup in his store.  

Identical, most of my tests have been with the 6466W sitting on a couple sections of track by itself.  I think what you described is chattering of the relay as it try's to maintain it's contacts.

My relay is chattering with just AC on the track - whistle button is not being used. When the "button" is pushed, it starts the whistle right up and it runs with no stuttering for 2-3 seconds, then just flat-out quits.

And I also got confused, the tender displaying this problem is a 234W, not a 6466W. 

Let us know how your testing goes, definitely want to follow this thread