A Frustrating Purchase - Am I expecting too much or too much of a perfectionists?

It doesn't sound like you are being a perfectionist (of course, I'm the wrong person to ask about this topic.   ).

It sounds as if the item was not as described (how does something get a high grade (condition) with those modifications?).  And the shipping damage?  

I wouldn't sit still for any of it, let alone pay the repairs.

George

Hey bmoran4, First, I want to tell you I’m one of your followers and I admire the number of posts you reply to with very accurate information normally providing sites for the information a forum member is looking for. You obviously spend much time researching other forum members questions and problems. We need more people like you on the forum and I thank you.

As to your problem since you indicated you received reasonable pictures it would seem to me that some of the problems you indicated with the locomotive and tender you received would have been obvious in the pictures so there’s no doubt in my mind that the seller did not send you the locomotive in the pictures. I hope it wasn’t a forum member and was from some other source, however, if it were me I would give the seller one chance for a reasonable explanation and if i didn't get one I would do everything I could to blow the whistle on the seller because he’s probably done it in the past and will do it in the future. Good luck in getting a suitable resolution. Jim Lawson

No.  You are absolutely not being a perfectionist.

I had a similar experience with a much newer item I purchased from a fellow forum member.  The price was still arguably a good deal, but the item was described being in "pristine" condition (I have the email to prove it).  They were far, far from it.  Multiple broken, scratched or bent items - and what appears to my eyes as a hack job of a repair on a truck frame (wrong screw and epoxy applied.  It runs and looks nice enough - but it was NOT pristine.

When I asked about them - the response was basically "What? Well I never!" "I have a flawless reputation."  There was an offer for a refund, but I'm not going to recoup shipping.  Again, still a good deal but it's like - just be honest about the condition.  Maybe some people just aren't as observant?  I don't know.

This whole deal just sounds wrong to me! In my opinion the seller needs to make it right!

Something amiss here! Holes drilled for smoke air flow? Send it back for a full refund! :-(

Clearly the work itself doesn’t scare you off, ....I’ve seen your posts, and it sounds like you’re more than competent to make the correct repairs, and you obviously enjoy the work of making it factory correct, so maybe try and strike a deal with the seller to pay for the hard parts needed to make the thing right.....or at least a good portion of it.....

I’ve had similar deals, and I don’t mind the work, so I try and make it so I’m not putting parts money out of pocket,...that’s the point I’m trying to make...again, clearly judging by past posts, this job sounds like a cake walk for your skills......it’ll certainly make for an interesting thread on the forum as we all watch you make chicken salad from chicken...........you get my point.....I’m not excusing the seller BTW.....

Pat

@Tinplate Art posted:

Something amiss here! Holes drilled for smoke air flow? Send it back for a full refund! :-(

X1 - Full Refund.

It's a 73-year old toy train!

Who know how many miles it has been run or how many people have worked on it over its lifetime.

You're expecting too much...

I don't believe you are expecting too much to receive an item that was as advertised. However from my experiences of buying used and I am sure many others as well,  we don't always get our expectations met and sometimes we get burned bad even if the seller indicates it is in "great condition". I just recently had a bad lemon which unfortunately was not apparent right away and I am stuck with it. It happens, but the main thing is to not let it get the best of you and just do what you can to just move on even if it becomes a shelf queen (at least that is what I am doing).

This is how disputes are based.  Inconsistent expectations.

73 year old train you should have asked more questions.

However I would still seek a refund.

@Rich Melvin posted:

It's a 73-year old toy train!

Who know how many miles it has been run or how many people have worked on it over its lifetime.

You're expecting too much...

While this is very true, I am of the belief that the best sellers* go over an engine to make sure it will work as they advertise and back it up with a warranty.  Unfortunately I have often been lured by an attractive price and I realize that is a gamble which often does not come out well. 

*I should state that when I say sellers I am referring to people that sell model trains for a living and offer a warranty on all their items they sell.

The skinny is ;

If YOU ARE UNHAPPY about it then return the item for a full refund. 

If you add up the costs of repairs plus the original price yet still unhappy about the loco, return it.

To the buyer, in your introduction, you mentioned you were given photos of the 726?, were top and bottom pictures given, front and back given? Both the locomotive and the tender given? If they looked OK in the pictures, possibly it was a lackluster packing job, and I’ve seen that happen lots of times. An older forum member taught me years ago to Triple Pack all merchandise, in original cartons if possible, then add that 3rd carton for security sake. That’s my thoughts. So, when purchasing a steamer with lots of parts, ask for  special packing, even if shipping cost a bit more. Happy Railroading.

Short answer I don’t think you are expecting too much.

I will never get to the prototypical level and artistry of many of the folks on here and don’t yet have the expertise you obviously have to identify missing or improperly made repairs.  I am an engineer so I love to tinker and often “fix” things to get them to work, even if it is not like original, but I know I have made that choice.

  Yes as someone mentioned it is a 74 year old engine.  BUT...  I thought that was the entire reason for grading.  While I personally might not be upset that the boiler face is wrong if it looks good, I would not expect to pay a premium price that did not match up with the condition.  I suppose the seller could be like me and say “I bought this a while ago and it looks and seems really nice.” and be shocked to find out that they bought a Franken-loco.  I were the seller I would try and make it right or take it back.

  So if you think you can repair it to your level of satisfaction I would try and get a price reduction for the parts etc. and eat the repair time because you like to work on things. Otherwise I would ask for a refund including return shipping.

Bill

Similar to others above, I enjoy your contributions to the forum.  You always give sound advice and make it easy for the end user. 

You should certainly expect better from the packing job. It seems like those defects are the worst and likely won’t ever be like they should without proper replacement. Also, this was 100% preventable by the seller.

The boiler plate holes should have been explicit in the Seller’s description.  Even a novice seller would notice holes drilled into the face and disclose that with a piece such as this.

The 736 boiler face vs 1946 726 boiler face is probably on you if there were pictures of it.  This could slip by a novice seller if they didn’t know what they were looking at.

To me the insulators, incorrect assembly, and replacement smoke box cover fall under caveat emptor.  This is one of the downfalls of buying online.  I would not assume the seller had anything to do with the incorrect repairs, and likely wouldn’t know unless he did it himself. 

With that said, you still have a very highly desired item. I think it’s in the right hands to return to its original state and it will likely bring you quite a bit of joy once you repair it. So even if you end up upside down with the fixes, you still have a great piece.  The cost sting wears away once the wheels start turning.   

I hope you share your steps repairing and replacing parts here on the forum. Looking forward to it! 🍿

Mr. Melvin, just for the record, we’ve held up pretty good to be 70 something years Young, just a bit of humor to soften the heartache of a purchase full of surprises. Your 765 Berkshire seems to always stand tall, stay safe, stay healthy, Happy Railroading Everyone.  (Don’t be mad). 

Lol! Thanks Leapin’ Larry! And for the record, “Mr. Melvin” was my father.  😉

A suggestion ...

You've resurrected other locos by applying your knowledge-based and experienced-based repair skills -- perhaps to some "basket cases."  This current item could be a chapter in a book you should write on the resurrection theme.  It would be a valued treasure trove of information to hobbyists and probably cathartic for you!  Pick up a pen ...

Mike Mottler    LCCA 12394

Understand your issues.

Purchased 2 items recently described as lightly run. Except both units had 1-1/2" hairline cracks in the roof and the paint was messed up. THAT stuff he neglected to mention as they didn't show up in the images.

I have seen way too many locos that have had a similar treatment to what you described.  Some people are proud of their jury rigged repairs. This is a fine loco, if the shell paint and condition is excellent, the effort and parts required are worth it to give this fine loco a new life.

      I have had to return things on Ebay that were not as described in the original offering. There, Ebay protects the buyer if the item is not as described.

     If that loco does not fit the original verbal description and/or the description in the photos, I would explain, as you have done here, why you want to return it and get rid of that Frankenstein engine! Certainly, the improper packing a resulting damage are reason alone to contact the seller and ask for a return.

    That would be what I would do. For me, the cost of looking for and buying correct postwar parts, filling in holes, plus regular lubricating, etc would be too much.

John

Moran,

Speaking as a fellow perfectionist:  IN MY OPINION, YOU WERE LIED TO!

Send it back, even if you have to eat shipping.  Perhaps the Seller will learn some type of lesson.

So, you have to pay some shipping.  Hopefully, it is a relatively small sum, and certainly not worth all of the time, trouble, and aggravation you are having to put up with.   Pay the shipping, return it for a full refund, go forth and be happy again!

Mannyrock

I'm with Rich on this one.  First thing I thought when I read the original post was, "A '46?  How many hands has this been through and how reasonable is it to expect the most recent seller to be aware of every mod that was made?"  We're not even told if we should expect the seller to be train knowledgeable.

I think there may have been some reasonable expectations as to the packing for shipping and the resulting shipping damage but if you confidently made the purchase based on the information provided then buyer beware.

@Mannyrock posted:

Moran,

Speaking as a fellow perfectionist:  IN MY OPINION, YOU WERE LIED TO!

Send it back, even if you have to eat shipping.  Perhaps the Seller will learn some type of lesson.

So, you have to pay some shipping.  Hopefully, it is a relatively small sum, and certainly not worth all of the time, trouble, and aggravation you are having to put up with.   Pay the shipping, return it for a full refund, go forth and be happy again!

Mannyrock

I’m just curious, were you there when BMORAN4 made the purchase?....what makes you so confident he was out and out lied to??....or is that just an assumption?.....if it was an assumption, I hope you know the root words of assume......kinda quick to jump the gun......no??....

Pat

Certainly, it is the buyer's call whether or not to return the engine or make the necessary repairs. He certainly has the skills to get this engine in prime condition and I wish him success whatever he decides! :-)

It's difficult to give you a good answer since you didn't provide the actual ad w/photos along with any questions you may have asked.  If all of the pictures were clear, and the seller answered your questions honestly, then you have nothing to complain about.  Did you ask the seller about the packaging to be used?  If not, then I don't think you can complain about the shipping damage.  In my experience, sellers will usually use the cheapest packaging they can.  Many times that is inadequate to prevent damage.  If the buyer wants to make sure there is no damage to the item(s), then the buyer needs to agree on a price for reasonably adequate packaging along with the option of paying for insurance to cover extraordinary circumstances.  BOTTOM LINE: If the seller was 100% honest in his description, answers to questions, and photos, then there is nothing you should complain about.  If the seller lied, forged or passed off items of similar items without stating so, then I think you have a valid complaint to justify asking for a refund including shipping costs.

Pat,

Yes, I see your point.  I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that when Moran said that he bought the engine in "high grade condition" that these were the words actually  used by the Seller in his description of the engine.  If so, then it doesn't matter what the Seller actually knew or didn't know.  He made a false statement of description, and has to stand by it, even if innocently made.

On the other hand, if the phrase "high grade condition" is Moran's words, a conclusion reached by him after looking at the photos, and that the Seller didn't make any substantially false statements in his description, then yes, Moran is expecting too much and should eat the sale.   

Sorry I didn't clarify my assumption earlier.

Which person has to absorb the loss if there was damage in the shipment depends on the terms of sale (which are often specified in advance on a buy/sell board. )  Were the terms FOB point of shipment?  FOB destination?  Or C&F?  It all depends.

Mannyrock

@Mannyrock posted:

Pat,

Yes, I see your point.  I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that when Moran said that he bought the engine in "high grade condition" that these were the words actually  used by the Seller in his description of the engine.  If so, then it doesn't matter what the Seller actually knew or didn't know.  He made a false statement of description, and has to stand by it, even if innocently made.

On the other hand, if the phrase "high grade condition" is Moran's words, a conclusion reached by him after looking at the photos, and that the Seller didn't make any substantially false statements in his description, then yes, Moran is expecting too much and should eat the sale.   

Sorry I didn't clarify my assumption earlier.

Which person has to absorb the loss if there was damage in the shipment depends on the terms of sale (which are often specified in advance on a buy/sell board. )  Were the terms FOB point of shipment?  FOB destination?  Or C&F?  It all depends.

Mannyrock

I’d agree with that....sometimes I jump the gun myself....I guess we’re all eager to see what BMORAN4 says will be the outcome.....but yes, I’d agree with you, if the seller said “High Grade” then I’d have to call BS like you said....

Pat

It sounds like you purchased someone's well used toy.  

@Byrdie posted:

I'm with Rich on this one.  First thing I thought when I read the original post was, "A '46?  How many hands has this been through and how reasonable is it to expect the most recent seller to be aware of every mod that was made?"  We're not even told if we should expect the seller to be train knowledgeable.

The age shouldn’t matter if it was sold as “original”. Only the buyer and seller know the exact language though. 

When joining the TCA you must agree to accurately represent items when selling them.  Misrepresentation is grounds for dismissal.  Therefore if it was listed as original, it should have original parts - at the bare minimum on the outside. Inside is trickier and I think that’s more of a grey area since opening the item could destroy some value.

Too much high grade, original box postwar available out there now days for me to try and do the repairs.   Unless it was incredibly cheap, I would send it back. 

High grade to me should be really nice and well taken care of. 

I must have missed the part where they said it was a TCA sale.  TCA nomenclature would not necessarily apply if it was not a TCA sale.  Also where did it say "original"?  I saw where he said "complete operating condition" and "high grade.  In my book neither of these descriptions precludes the item having replacement parts to deal with items that were worn out or damaged in operation. 

What I think happened is that we have an item that dates from the late 1940s.  It was probably used for its intended purpose, as a toy for a child.  At some point it sustained damage.  The locomotive was taken to a shop.  The shop repaired the locomotive using parts it had on hand rather than seeking out correct #726 parts.   The locomotive looked nice and was fully functional so the owner was happy and continued to use it for years afterwards.  Then at some point someone, either the original owner who knew the history or a subsequent owner who did not sold the loco to the OP.  Its a 726.  It runs.  It looks nice enough to the seller.  Assuming the pictures were accurate I don't see calling this a high grade loco in complete operating condition to be a misrepresentation by a nonmerchant/non-TCA member.

What the item isn't is a correct #726 locomotive with all original external parts in functioning order that operates.  If that was what the purchaser was expecting and that is how the item was priced then yes I would be a bit ticked off.

@Bill N posted:

I must have missed the part where they said it was a TCA sale.  TCA nomenclature would not necessarily apply if it was not a TCA sale.

That’s true. Who knows if the seller was a TCA member.  What I was attempting to get across is age should be of no consequence.  It’s really the description that matters. 

@Rich Melvin posted:

Lol! Thanks Leapin’ Larry! And for the record, “Mr. Melvin” was my father.  😉

Yes, but it gets worse. Wait until people start calling you "sir".

Gerry

I recently bought a Williams/Samhongsa brass Southern Railway USRA 2-8-2 off Ebay (from one of our sponsors) for a selling price of $186 plus shipping and tax.  When it arrived it looked almost new on the outside, dust was the only tell that it had some age on it.  I had a hint things may be not what was advertised when I noticed the green color of the boiler and the black tender didn't match, neither did the Williams box, Williams outer shipping box, the actual outside shipping box had no brand name on it, just labels form the seller.

But when I took it apart...the inside of the tender was completely covered with duct tape and the QSI electronics (PS1?) were held in place with tiny blocks of foam rubber and electrical tape.  I gutted the tender and removed most of the tape, it also was dry rotted.  On the engine, the traction tires were rotted away, fortunately there was 7 good spares in the box.  Also found the drive had a bind, solved that by shimming the steam chest casting.

Not sure the electronics even work as I'm replacing it anyway with either PS2, ERR, TMCC, or BPRC, but obviously there must have been an issue AFTER manufacturing, hence the tape inside the tender.

Reading these posts made me wonder, how many sellers open up an engine or tender to note the condition inside?  I'm betting very few as most deal in quantity.  They get them from people who have had them for years and need to downsize or selling off a collection or estate sales, the seller probably doesn't take the time to inspect every piece inside and out.

If it's old and at a good price, I expect there's going to be some issues, but if it's new, I expect it to be in like new condition...and run.

@bmoran4 since everyone is stirred up, why not post the "reasonable pictures" provided by the seller, and your own pics illustrating the actual condition?  Then we can have an informed discussion.

The one I'm most curious about is the holes drilled in the boiler face.  I have a '46 726 in my own repair queue.  So photos of the other defects you found will give me clues about what to look for.  Thanks!

@Ted S posted:

@bmoran4 since everyone is stirred up, why not post the "reasonable pictures" provided by the seller, and your own pics illustrating the actual condition?

Finally.

"Yes, but it gets worse. Wait until people start calling you "sir"."

Yea, but it gets worse.  Wait until people start calling you "Pops."   :-)

I think everyone has had these experiences. The excited purchase at the train show that ends up to be an "uh oh" when you get it home and really start to look at it. Or the eBay purchase where you find out that descriptions and digital pictures can deceive and can be far from the reality of the piece.

As far as PW and PreWar Lionel, I have found 4 or 5 reliable, high-star purveyors on eBay and I never buy from anyone else. It's just not worth the risk. I'll just wait until the piece I am looking for shows up in one of their auction listings. I'd rather wait a year or two to buy the item from them than to buy it today from a eBay dealer I have no experience with.