All Nation/Varney Ten Wheeler...

Bill's Train Shop now owns Babbit.

Rusty

No and No.

Simon

Feel free to ask.

The boiler may be attached as you say, or the screw may come down through the stack (unlikely) or once in a while the main screw will come up behind the cylinder block.  Two small screws in back.

Drivers are quartered mechanically, so you will have to use the glue trick.  Clean it up really good, then quarter it as well as you can.  Hold it in position and put some   shaft Loctite in there.  Tighten the nut, and let it sit for 24 hrs.

@bob2 posted:

Feel free to ask.

The boiler may be attached as you say, or the screw may come down through the stack (unlikely) or once in a while the main screw will come up behind the cylinder block.  Two small screws in back.

Drivers are quartered mechanically, so you will have to use the glue trick.  Clean it up really good, then quarter it as well as you can.  Hold it in position and put some   shaft Loctite in there.  Tighten the nut, and let it sit for 24 hrs.

Thank you for the helpful responses. I bet you've had a couple of these pass through your capable hands. 

Which color of Loctite should I get?

For some strange reason, I already have assembly instructions:

...but they were written for someone who obviously knows what they are doing, so that leaves me out! For example, I don't see any mention of how the boiler is attached to the frame...

As I say, it won't be here for a while, but rest assured I will no doubt have plenty of questions about this as I proceed. Am looking forward to this project...

Mark in Oregon

Mine has a homemade frame.  But I can generally answer mechanical questions.

You need a photo of the B&O Ten-wheeler to guide your restoration.  I have seen spectacular examples - Joe Ferraioli did one.  I bet Ed Bommer did one, too.

Went looking for a photo for you.  Not only are they scarce as hen’s teeth, but also one site wiped out all of my bookmarks in one iPad.

Capture Al Stauffer’s B&O Steam book.  P. 227 is the best B-18 photo I could find.  Where is Bommer when we need him?

2024 is in green with gold leaf and red accents.  That’s the way I want to fix mine up.

Of all the All-Nation steam, this is the only one with a prototype.  The Pacific may come close to the USRA Light, but not with B&O drive wheels!

@bob2 posted:

1. Mine has a homemade frame.

2. But I can generally answer mechanical questions.

3. You need a photo of the B&O Ten-wheeler to guide your restoration.  I have seen spectacular examples - Joe Ferraioli did one.  I bet Ed Bommer did one, too.

1: Can we see it?

2: You can be sure I'll be asking  .  I'd like to look into putting a Pittman in there...

3. Will do some looking around; thanks again.

Mark in Oregon

Sure.  It is kinda dirtbag.  Remind me tomorrow.

bob2, et al

According to the TCA "Western Division" site, this was the "old faithful" of the All Nation Line, yet you're right: there is not a whole lot of stuff on the 'web about this model, including pictures. 

Perhaps some of you guys here have a photo or two to share.

Mark in Oregon

PS: bob2: consider this your "reminder"... 

On that ten-wheeler, the screw in the stack holds a bracket for the smoke box front.

To remove the boiler, first take off the engine truck up front. Then, the center screw that holds the cylinder casting to the boiler. After that removed the two screws holding the rear wall of the cab to the tailpiece on the frame. Then, carefully lift the boiler off the frame, taking  care not to yank out the headlight bulb wires.

The drivers were quartered by fitting into a machined square on each end of the axle that has a threaded extension on it.  A slotted nut-head secured the driver to the axle. To remove that head, cut a slot in the blade of a small blade screw driver. Keep it as an essential tool for working on a Varney/AN/Babbitt loco as all have the same quartering and driver attachment.

Having such a driver out of quarter means that it's either been forced, or was re-installed incorrectly  As the driver centers are cast brass and the axles are steel, it could be if forced the squareness of the driver's axle hole was compromised. 

A repair could be done as described, but the driver and axle set must be in the same exact quarter as all the others on the loco.  Not a simple thing to achieve without  a quartering jig set to match the original driver/axle setup.

Best to see if you can find a replacement driver. Not easy, but maybe not impossible.

Varney/AN/Babbitt drivers are all the same size, regardless of what loco they were on.  There were two types:  A main driver with a wide counter-weight and the secondary drivers all with a smaller same sized counter-weight.

Here's an All Nation Kit No. 5 Atlantic I built in 1970 at its new home in Rockford IL.  Scarcer than the ten-wheeler, it also was at heart a B&O locomotive!

Ed Bommer, aka here as S. Islander. 

,

I should have added that if a driver was out of quarter, it could also be possible that the rod pin's holes in the rod ends have become elongated.  If they fit too loosely, the mechanism can bind even if all drivers are in quarter. 

Again, it might be possible to bore out elongated rod holes and refit them with brass tube bushings. But getting the rod pin holes to the exact spacing needed is a machinist's art. And, you have only one shot to get it right!   Replacement rods are another part not easily found now. 

FWIW: The special B&O P-7 class "Presidential" paint job of green with gold and red striping on B&O 2024 was for its status as the dedicated locomotive for B&O President Daniel Willard's inspection train from 1925 to about 1930. Depression era austerity put the 2024 back into pool service in black paint.  Willard's inspection train (usually a coach/baggage combine,  a diner, a 12 section /1 drawing room Pullman and B&O office car "Maryland") was from then on drawn by a pool service locomotive.

S. Islander  

Beautiful!  Thanks.  I just started a Dockside.  It already doesn't look as good as yours, but I might stick a photo here later.  First mistake was making the window panes wrong.  Might not fix that.

Take these with a grain of salt.  They are just waiting to be refinished, both in green, with better stripes and professional decals.  Forgive the derailment - happens often around here.  I finally had to re-gauge the display track.

I should add - the American went to the Museum about two decades ago, to stand in for a repair I was doing.  They had it for a month, and ran the socks off of it.  Tried to talk me out of it.  I give them repairs and $ instead.  They said it never missed a beat, running all day long for a month!

S. Islander: Very helpful, thanks so much. #1447 is a beauty.

bob2: Very nice. I think I remember you mentioning your loan of the 4-4-0 to the Museum on another site; good to know (but not surprising) they are capable of such endurance.

Question for you both: do these have the original motors, or have you swapped out for a can-type?

Mark in Oregon

Okay gang, this old thing just arrived:

It's not as bad as I thought: it looks like all I'm lacking is the main crankpin (#1531), nut (#1278) and whatever it is that keeps the eccentric rod in place. If anyone out there happens to have these items, in search of a good home, please let me know. 

I think the body is held to the frame by (2) screws located under the pilot truck, and (2) more back under the cab. I don't see how else it's done.

The tender looks to be in fine shape, with nothing needed there...as far as I can tell.

I will begin the process of disassembly; just enough to test the motor, etc. Please feel free to chime in...

Thanks.

Mark in Oregon

Glad it worked out.  Let me check.

Thanks Bob; I appreciate the assistance.

After a couple of pleasant hours looking this over, I found a couple of things:

The motor was seized up tight; I gave it a "bath" in some WD40, worked it a bit, then cleaned everything and the motor now runs beautifully on about 4-5V.

If this the "slotted nut-head" mentioned earlier, it certainly will need to be attached, as it's now just kinda "floating" around and will fall out if you're not careful... 

I waited a long time to score one of these, and I'm in no big hurry to get it "road-worthy" (yeah, right!). As it is now, I think it makes a nice display piece. Looks much better without the huge motor in the cab:

I'm guessing this was not considered a "high end" model at the time, yet it really has nice details...

All in all, a nice old model I think, for less than a hundred bucks... 

Mark in Oregon

@S. Islander posted:

1. On that ten-wheeler, the screw in the stack holds a bracket for the smoke box front.

2. To remove the boiler, first take off the engine truck up front. Then, the center screw that holds the cylinder casting to the boiler. After that removed the two screws holding the rear wall of the cab to the tailpiece on the frame. Then, carefully lift the boiler off the frame, taking  care not to yank out the headlight bulb wires.

3. The drivers were quartered by fitting into a machined square on each end of the axle that has a threaded extension on it.  A slotted nut-head secured the driver to the axle. To remove that head, cut a slot in the blade of a small blade screw driver. Keep it as an essential tool for working on a Varney/AN/Babbitt loco as all have the same quartering and driver attachment.

Ed Bommer, aka here as S. Islander. 

Ed 

Sorry for the delay in responding; thanks for all the good information.

1. You were right.

2. Also right; in my case, no headlight or wires to fuss with.

3. Good tip about the slotted screwdriver; will have to make one.

I contacted Bill at "BTS" this morning about possible availability of parts; he got back to me almost immediately. Said he'd dig around and try to come up with something. 

After I got the motor running, I attempted to put everything back the way it was; I had no luck in getting the motor with its large drive bracket to line up with the frame enough to be able to screw it all back together. What's the secret here?  

Mark in Oregon

Good news about Bill.  Couldn't tell what you were displaying as a "slotted nut" there.  Each axle gets two; you can see them in the center of the driver if the builder didn't putty them over.  That is where you want Loctite (and putty).

The main crankpin, as I recall, is held the same way, with a slotted nut, from the back side.  The eccentric is held in place with a small nail.  Being a little loose is not cause for alarm, unless the crankpin itself is loose.

Looks good - at $100 it is a true O Scale bargain.  Usually $250.

Mark and all,

The fit of the motor bracket is tricky. I loaned my All Nation steam loco instruction sheets a few moths ago to someone who wanted to make a copy of them. But they've not come back.   I will try to recall. I sold my 4-4-2  two years ago, so I  no longer have a ready reference.

The bracket has a horseshoe-like end which attaches to the motor with a pair of 4-40 round head machine screws.  The holes in the bracket I had were a little oversized, which allowed for some wiggle room in adjusting the fit of the motor. I think there were motor bracket tail end mounting screws too.

The other end of the bracket has a toe-like extension with one (?) hole in it for another 4-40 (or 6-32) machine screw to hold it to the fame. That end is where you adjust the mesh of the worm and drive gear on the axle, with a thin washer or two under the toe.  The drive gear mesh needs to be about 50% into the worm so that its a good fit, but not loose enough to have any gear tooth backlash. Nor so tight that it binds at any point when the worm shaft is turned by hand. Once that is set the other screws holding the motor bracket to the fame can be tightened, then check the gear mesh again. 

It's a fussy job to get it right, but once set correctly. that drive can outlast us all. It reminded me in part on how a mechanic sets the mesh of a pinion and ring gear in repairing an automobile's rear axle, but those days are gone now. 

Now here is where I need to see an instruction sheet, because I'm fuzzy on just where the motor bracket toe meets the fame. Is it on one of the round spacers holding the fame sides together, or does it reach down to the bottom plate that holds the driver bearings in place? 

Either way, the fit of that motor bracket toe screw also determines how far back or forward the motor and bracket will be on the frame. On the 4-6-0, the bracket toe screw hole should be in front of the middle, main driver axle, to center the worm over the main driver's gear. Be sure to check the worm to drive gear mesh.

Onward!

S. Islander

Thanks guys

Bob: that picture was supposed to show the "slotted nut" that holds the crankpin: (the crankpin is one of the missing parts, along with the eccentric crank itself and whatever it is that holds the eccentric rod to the crank...you say it's a small nail?) I'm hoping "BTS" Bill will find some. I guess I should feel lucky that the slotted nut was still there, since there is really nothing to hold it in place. I've currently got a long 2-56 bolt-head screw holding everything together for the time being, just so the side rods don't flop around.

Ed: indeed, the front end of that bracket is supposed to reach down and connect with the bottom plate. I fussed with that for quite a while yesterday and just couldn't get it right. I suppose there's no point in worrying about that until I can get those valve gear parts anyway...

As I look further into this, it's amazing how almost everything is held together with screws...of all different sizes. Heck, even the marker lights on the smokebox front are screwed to their brackets...which are in turn screwed to the smokebox front. The steps on the pilot: screwed in place. The tender hatch: 2 screws; tender steps...and on and on...

One last thing: from the underside, the boiler looks like one big hunk of...bronze, maybe? I took the smokestack off to adjust the smokebox front, and that unpainted section of the boiler had a reddish tint...

Very cool old model!

Mark in Oregon

Yes. Sand cast brass or bronze.  I think the exact alloy was whatever they were pouring that day.  Let us know if Bill doesn't find your parts.

@bob2 posted:

1. Yes. Sand cast brass or bronze.  I think the exact alloy was whatever they were pouring that day.  2. Let us know if Bill doesn't find your parts.

1. Thanks Bob.  This thing has a wonderful "old school" feel to it which I find most compelling; can only guess that's something like what Carey Williams must feel when he plays with his fantastic collection of old stuff...or any of you with your Lobaugh, Hines, etc.

2. I will keep you all in the loop regarding "your parts"... 

Mark in Oregon

I spent a few more hours fussing with this, and this is what I discovered.

My All Nation instruction sheets show that the big u-shaped bracket is closest to the motor; with the "mounting foot" outside of it:

However, on this Varney example (which has a different motor), the "foot" is up against the motor, with the big bracket outside of it:

Once I figured that out, it all came together fairly easily. Note that there are (2) tapped holes in the "foot", so one wonders is there was a modification made at some point. Odd thing is that I now have an extra brass washer; where that came from is a mystery.

It is perfectly sized to fit on the worm shaft, but upon installing it, it was too tight and bound up the mechanism. 

As it stands now; given the fact that it's missing several crucial pieces, it runs very well up on blocks. Am hoping that BTS can come through with those parts: (in the meantime, I am open to any suggestions and/or offers... &nbsp

Mark in Oregon

EDIT: By swapping the 2 brackets back to where they should be, we gained enough space on the worm shaft to put that washer back where it belongs...🙂

Update:

Thanks to a fellow Forum member (who I shall not name, as I didn't ask permission to do so), the much needed valve gear parts arrived today. Now on to the questions/problems...

How exactly does one set the "timing" on the main crank?

That may be a moot point however, as I think I have discovered a real issue. It looks like the left side "valve rod" has seized up in the cylinder, and it is no longer connected to the "combination lever". Because of this, that "combo" lever cannot swing freely enough and is causing a bind. I tried to take a couple of photos:

These don't really show much; I just wanted to illustrate the "where" as much as the "what". You may notice I have disconnected the (according to Wikipedia) "union link" so that at least the rest of the gear can move...

Because the instruction sheets are so vague, I have no clue as to how to take this apart enough to try to fix it, and due to my ignorance about this kind of stuff, I think I may be "dead in the water" with this.  

Your thoughts are not only appreciated, but needed!   

Thank you.

Mark in Oregon

Maybe try a little WD40 into the cyclinder to see if that frees-up the valve rod?

Chuck

@PRR1950 posted:

Maybe try a little WD40 into the cyclinder to see if that frees-up the valve rod?

Chuck

Thanks Chuck; I actually tried that. No luck.

I think that however that rod is/was attached to the combination lever; that is probably broken, as I can detect no movement from the rod, yet the other parts have some play...  

Very puzzling...

Mark in Oregon

Remove the combination lever and anything that is attached to it.  The radius rod may not be riveted to the Walschaerts link, and may just slide out.  Then clean it up and re-fit.

instead of WD-40, try acetone or lacquer thinner, just in case it is all welded with paint.

@bob2 posted:

Remove the combination lever and anything that is attached to it.  The radius rod may not be riveted to the Walschaerts link, and may just slide out.  Then clean it up and re-fit.

instead of WD-40, try acetone or lacquer thinner, just in case it is all welded with paint.

Thanks bob2 (the guy who sent me those parts.)  

Maybe this is why I was able to get this for only 75 bucks... 

I'm just unsure as to how this was all put together: the top of the combination lever (where it is hinged, I suppose) is tucked up inside that part of the cylinder (as in my photos), so I can't actually see "what goes where". I hate to be a PITA, but I obviously don't wanna make things worse...

Mark in Oregon

Another update: good news this time.     

I was able to free up that stuck rod (sure enough bob2, acetone did the trick) so now it's a question of getting the (2) main cranks to be in proper sync with each other...anyone?

Mark in Oregon

Yes.  The eccentric is canted slightly forward with the rods bottom dead center.  Adjust those main crank pins that way, then Loctite, then driver on axle w/ Loctite. Final step is pinning the eccentric after the rods are back on.

Radius rod does not need to be pinned to the Walschaerts link, but there should be a pin to keep it from sliding too far aft and allowing the valve stem to fall out of its guide.

Thanks. I will look into all that tomorrow sometime.   

Right now I'm using a simple straight pin (cut down) to hold the main crank in place. If I can find an escutcheon pin, would that be better/more correct? 

Thanks again for ALL your help.  

Mark in Oregon

Spanner driver is what you use on those types of nuts/screws. They also have dot versions with holes vs slots... pig nose, snake eye, dot, spanner, varies by maker what they call them.

The dot type work on slots, but not visa versa. Many, even cheap, tamper proof bit sets have them (usually the slotted version)   You can find precision sets too though.

There are large spanner wrenches and socket sets for industry.

And side noteInote ItI they call an open end wrench 🔧 a spanner in the UK I think. (goofle spellwreck, not my fault)

This locomotive kit has a long history in O scale.    As I remember it was originally issued by Varney.    Then a company called General Models bought the models and patterns and it was issued by them for awhile.    After that, The All Nation hobby shop bought the line and it became All Nation for years.    I am most familiar with that line and they had at that point in 70s the 4-6-0, a 4-4-2, a 4-4-0, and a 2-6-2.    They also had F3 and F7 A and B Units along with the NW2 switcher.    I think the diesels were added when is was General Models and some of the steamers.    There has also been an 4-8-2 and an articulated of some type mentioned as part of this line.

All Nation sold off the Steam loco line to Babbitt who made a lot of upgrades to the mechanisms which included sprung drivers and I think Can motors.     Finally Babbitt sold the steam model line to BTS, Bill's Train Shop.

I don't know the dates for these changes.   When I got in the hobby it was All Nation and it was a big player in the O Scale hobby at the time.    Also, all models were not always available at the same time.     It would be interesting to learn when each model was added to the line.   They do all follow similar assembly and have a family look.   Also, they all used the same size drivers.

prrjim:

I agree.

Another question: The 0-80 brass bolt that holds the eccentric rod to the main crank:

...if I tighten this up all the way, it binds. If I loosen it (just enough to allow it to function), won't it continue to loosen itself until it drops out and I loose it forever?  Is this where some Locktite comes into play?

More fun and games... 

Mark in Oregon

Yes, Loctite should work OK. But be sparing! There is little drag on that screw from the rod.

Like all machinery that goes back 60+ years or so, model locomotives likewise needed regular inspections to check on loosening screws (especially on steam locos and cars with machine screw king pins), any need for cleaning wheel treads and if needed, some oil or grease. 

Regular maintenance gives a longer, more trouble free life whether its a car, truck, bus, boat, locomotive or operating model.  However, older things needed more care. Older operating models, likewise. Gone are the days of the 1,000 mile grease job and oil change for a car or light truck, also the 30,000-40,000 mile "carbon and valve" job! 

Been there, done that, S.  Islander

That nut for the eccentric might be a replacement for the original.   Is it possible that there was a shouldered nut or screw at one time?    Are the eccentric holes a little sloppy on the bolt?

Well even if that is the original construction, a shouldered bolt would solve the problem, and you could make one with the existing bolt.    Simply find a piece of brass tubing with an ID the same (actually a couple 1000ths inch bigger) as the OD of the bolt shaft.    Cut a length just a few thousandths longer than the thickness of the eccentric rod.    Slide it over the bolt and then install the bolt.    You should be able to tighten the bolt down while the eccentric rod rides on the piece of brass tube.    some guys solder the piece of tube to the bolt, some don't.   

Now if it originally had a shouldered bolt, the tube should fit the hole.    If not,  you may need to bore out the hole a little if there is enough material.  

A friend of mine made shouldered scews and bolts like this for many of his HO locos which are much tinier and fiddlier.

Thanks guys. 

As it turns out, I tried something a bit different and it seems to be working:

The 0-80 bolt I got from bob2 is 3/32" in length over all. Since there was no "play" if I tightened it all the way, I thought maybe a slightly longer bolt would do the trick. I shortened a different 0-80 down to 1/4". That extra 1/16" made all the difference; I can now tighten the bolt fully (so it stays tight) yet there is a little "play" for the eccentric rod to move freely.

The chassis is now (more or less) reassembled and is turning at a nice 3V; will kick in at 2V off my Heathkit power pack (which is a whole other story). Still need to put it on a track, but I'm feeling pretty good about this project right now... 

Question: the tender has no rivet detail; is as smooth as can be. Can that be right?

Mark in Oregon