Amazing Radio Control - the future of Model Trains?

For those who like 3-rail track, which should include all on this forum, battery power and R/C is useless, because it eliminates the one feature of your hobby that sets it apart.  That is, when battery power becomes the norm, the center rail will be retained for nostalgia only, and might start to seem silly.

 

It is coming, for much the same reasons that TMCC, DCS, and DCC have taken over - better control, smoother operation, fewer insulation headaches.  Fusing is not particularly challenging; we have to do that anyway.  Circuit breakers are cheap and reliable.  Battery size is still a problem, but I am going to guess that over the last decade the outside dimensions have been cut more than in half, and we should see a bit more shrinkage in the next couple years.

 

All of that is opinion, of course.  I have not yet converted anything to battery power, although my giant AC-8 is anxiously awaiting such a conversion.  I could stick a car battery in its tender.

I have a friend who designed a board to interface with TMCC on batteries , about 2 hr run time , we sent a letter Lionel , they said nice idea but it won't work , my NASA engineer friend has had it made for over 3 yrs . Only thing the track is for is the signal for TMCC

Still need the compelling reason to add the cost to the engine for the battery?

Were are in the phase of the hobby were train prices can't go up, so manufactures fine ways to cut cost making the item so profit still grows.

 

What is the Big Bang in this were the consumer say Yes I will pay $50 to a ?? more for that battery operated train because?

 

2 Railers and DC power, so tell me how much smoother a battery train runs over that?

 

I get the rail/wheel/pickup loses.  But the tech is good enough that it isn't much of an issue.

 

The only advantage I see is the hobbyist who likes to redo a layout frequently. Or the portable/outdoor types.  ust lay track no wiring.

 

I think the big money seems to be in the larger more permanent but always expanding layouts.  Battery is just another maintenance and weight consideration to that group.

 

So as always, where is the largest customer base.  That is where Lionel and MTH would go.  The small cottage industries supply the rest.   G

The only advantage I see is the hobbyist who likes to redo a layout frequently. Or the portable/outdoor types.  ust lay track no wiring.

 

That's because you like three rail track.  There are others who have gone to great lengths to make the center rail smaller, or to convert it to studs, all because they are not interested in the insulation difficulties of two rail.  For many 3-railers, the advantage will be better looking track.  For two railers, fewer short circuits, less hassle with dirty track, and way smoother operation.  I think, in balance, it will make our model trains far more realistic in the end.

This is a complete and total nonsense thread about a technology that almost no one will want or adopt.

 

Shoot it and put it our of its misery.

I've been experimenting with this for about a year. I have retrofitted 3 old MTH Premier PS1 locomotives to DCC Battery Power with the Air Wire system from CVP products. I installed sound boards from Soundtraxx. So far I am pleased with the results.I put the battery pack in a MTH Express reefer so I don't have to buy a battery for every loco.I am using Lithium Ion 14.8 4400MA-Hr. The AirWire system is proven technology and they're based out of and made in Texas.

 

http://www.cvpusa.com/airwire_system.php

 

 

The technology will improve over time. My plan is to convert my locomotives one by one when their TMCC or DCC boards fail. 

 

No, because the only advantage of battery is no wiring.  Self contained DC.

 

Plenty of alternatives to 2R or 3 rail track AC or DC.  MTH has AC power HO 2 rail boards now based on Marklin model.

 

Battery or no battery has nothing to do with track selection in my mind, though it makes it easier to use just 2 rail.

 

Boomer, I have posted about CVP quite a lot when folks start talking about LC+ and RC trains.  Again, this is out there.  AC, CVP and other have been doing this in G and even O for a while.

 

As an example I used a 7.2V power pack from an RC car in my MTH Premier PS-1 J.  This was a decade ago.  12V motor that is optimized around that voltage.  Now a days with 12V and 14 volt power pack you can do all this.  Probably could buy a $39 RC car at Walmart and use it to drive a train forward and reverse at various speeds.   G

 

 

 

 

I also want to be able to run O gauge outside and not have to worry about track. I have experimented with using Gargraves Stainless and pulling up the 3rd rail. I encased the wooden (Insect and weather prone)ties in a slurry of kitty litter and liquid epoxy. Looks great and right now I have a few trial pieces that have been sitting out in the Arkansas weather since last summer. 

That heavy equipment operating in the opening video is cool.......and expensive. I checked one site, and a small dozer is a bargain at about $1300. Those excavators run $5600-$7800. These are made in Germany.

 

I'm no expert at all, but I sure didn't think battery technology was near the point where it has the necessary power/longevity/size combination for significant O gauge train operation. R/C cars and airplanes (the larger ones that are run more rigorously and for longer periods of time -not the small, lightweight stuff with 5-6 min. operating times - run on fuel. I imagine there's a reason for that. A scale diecast steamer with a string of 20-30 cars is a very heavy load - hard to believe there's a small battery available that could keep that consist running for an hour.

 

The idea mentioned by some of constant recharging using track power is an interesting one, though. 

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."

Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943

 

"Television won't be able to hold on to any market it captures after the first six months. People will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night."

Darryl Zanuck, executive at 20th Century Fox, 1946

 

"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."

Ken Olsen, founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977

 

"Almost all of the many predictions now being made about 1996 hinge on the Internet's continuing exponential growth. But I predict the Internet will soon go spectacularly supernova and in 1996 catastrophically collapse."

Robert Metcalfe, founder of 3Com, 1995

 

"Two years from now, spam will be solved."

Bill Gates, founder of Microsoft, 2004

 

"But what...is it good for?" -- Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.

 

Etc., etc., etc....blah, blah, blah.

 

Hey, you're in good company!

 

 

When my layout starts, I turn up the throttle on each loop and let the trains run until I shut them off. If I have to go forward or reverse this feature is there. I don't know what all the fuss about remote control is, but on a display layout like mine with little switching, it may lessen the wiring task, but doesn't get you very much. I don't say this sarcastically but can someone explain to me why I would need anything other than conventional?

Oh contraire...Boomer system w /lipo technology i could embrace easily.

Hmmm..... 

 

You mean the idea of a train, its locomotive, having its own on-board power source to propel it?  You mean the track rails not carrying electrical power from which the train/engine is able to move?

 

Radical.

 

 

 

P.S....One more time....   Going to York this month?  Stop by the RCS America booth in Orange Hall.  

 

P.P.S....I have no skin in their game....except that I bought one of their systems.  It works.  And as others on this forum have testified using other components/systems, it worked for them, also. 

 

Oh yes, and BTW, if you have a GOOD full-line LHS nearby that has expertise in RC items...particularly drones and RTF/ARF airplanes using battery power...stop by for a chat/demo. 

 

Oh, and consider this....as well as the hobby industry has exploited new battery technology commercially, there is yet a higher level of performance out there utilized in less commercial applications.  Call it 'the next generation'.

 

Go ahead.  Cling to your paradigms.

 

Not me. That lipo technology sucks.

Doesn't LC+ still get its power from the track and isn't each engine bound to its own handheld?

 

The battery powered RC systems that I've looked at

 

http://www.rcs-rc.com/pages/home

 

are independent of track power and can bind multiple engines to a single transmitter.

 

I recently bought an old Weaver 3-rail RS3.  I've already converted it to 2-rail and the next step may be using this RC for control being I don't have a current system set up to run it, other than a DC power pack.

The neat thing is, even if it becomes the norm, you do not have to convert, or pull up the third rail, or anything.  Nobody will force you to go battery power.

You have put forward an inappropriate analogy using cherry picked quotes.

 

The examples you cited are of what were groundbreaking technologies, each of which affected a very large segment of society.

 

Radio controlled battery vehicles (in the hobby context) are no longer in this category and as related to this application will have no large impact on society.

 

Apples and oranges comparison.

 

Running toy trains on batteries seems somewhat of a step backward.  Changing and charging batteries seems an unnecessary inconvenience.  

 

Will clockwork motors be the next new "trend" in this hobby?

The folks who seem to vehemently disagree with battery RC make it seem like someone will take away your transformer and Lionel and MTH remotes if battery trains become popular. 

 

Relax folks... it's just another way to do it.  That does not mean it has to be the only way.

 

Ron

 

Some of the replies on this post absolutely amaze me.  I can not put into words how ashamed to be part of the community some of the posts above make me.  

There is an easy answer.  For your operation, conventional works just fine.  Now, if you wanted to run your New Delta Lines like the old Delta Lines ran, complete with time table (and I think train order) operation, complete with switching, then the equation changes.   Command control, and then radio command control, while not entirely necessary, sure does enhance the ability to switch, and in both cases, simplifies and / or eliminates wiring.  Command control did more to enhance my enjoyment of the hobby far more than any other single technological development.  Sound is right behind that. 

 

I model in HO, but still have some of my O scale three rail stuff to run at a couple of local layouts since ditching the trailer railroading.

 

In my HO world, I jumped straight into Dynatrol when I started my layout in 1987.   Found out DCC was a far better system, so I converted to DCC in 1996 (I had to change about 14 decoders at that point).  Nineteen years later, in HO, DCC is still the way to go (IMHO), but once battery technology and the associated electronics gets even smaller, I'm sure that battery power will make DCC, DCS, and TMCC obsolete. 

 

I tired of pushing handles on a ZW about 43 years ago.   

 

Regards,

GNNPNUT

Battery power for trains may be all but inevitable. I have several self designed battery powered RC trains running on my layout and their operation is as smooth as velvet.

Tell us more - what kind of link?  What kind of battery?  Did you design your own receiver?

Same feeling here. Some folks just their "kicks" poking fun at and criticizing discussions about new ideas. They should just keep their un-constructive comments to themselves and move along. This is an interesting thread to some of us.

Why inevitable.  Electricity becoming obsolete?  Is a chemical battery a better source of DC power than a electrically converted and smoothed infinite DC power source?  What land fill will all these chemical batteries be deposited into?

 

I only comment  on this post because it was declared the newest or future of the hobby.  Those are strong statements considering all the various ways this hobby is practiced.

 

They all have pro and cons.  Your circumstance dictate which pros you need and which cons you can't have.

 

Just don't present this as the all pros and no cons solution to model railroading.  G

I don't think rc is necessarily the only future, given that conventional
control is still here 80 years + after the e-unit, it is unlikely that that
is going anywhere.Lionel and Mth I am sure would love to find a way to get
people to have to buy their cc rigs and not support conventional,but it
hasn't happened.

I think technologically some of the posters against rc,about the batteries
being weak,lasting only a couple of minutes,are mistaken.An rc airplane is
different than a train,weight is a big factor there,and gas engines have
the same problem as batteries,so they need to be light,so time of
operation is gonna be limited,a train doesn't have that,space is more the
consideration.

I hear the same thing in car circles about electric vehicles,sneering how
it will never replace Detroit iron and the like,how they are tree hugger
cars and so forth. The reality is that car companies have gotten
serious,and battery and fuel cell tech is moving forward,and in the not so
distant future gas powered cars are going to be in decline (in large part
because tech companies,other than the auto industry suits with their cozy
relationship to ExxonMobil and such,can't kill it). It is like those who
tell me about the good Ole days of cars you fixed with pliers and a
screwdriver,didn't mention how often you had to repair them or hunk them.

I don't think rc is going to take over per se, the hobby is too
diverse.Like with the move to scale equipment vs post war semiscale,it will
be a part I suspect.For rivet counters,It is more true to prototype having
the power source on board.

For the train companies,gets rid of command bases and power bricks and so
forth.

For users,no wiring, no special reverse loop wiring,no issues w dirt on the
rails or worries about signal strength in the rails,star wiring,and a
layout underside that looks like the flying spaghetti monster.

I think lc+ shows another reason,that there are people out there who would
like to do command control but don't want the complexity of legacy or dcs.
An rc system could offer for example something like an SD card you plug in
the engine that allows it to be controlled. Rather than having to program
in engine numbers and such,you have a card that is engine1,engine2,etc.
Many of us don't have huge collections or layouts,so for running we may
only use a small number of engines,and unlike lc+ it allows swapping the id
card.

I don't think rc will take over or necessarily become big,but it has
potential.From what I understand Lionel is surprised at the popularity of
lc, I think it has captured the audience that wants command control but
doesn't need (litetally) all the bells and whistles of current cc systems.
On Apr 5, 2015 9:51 AM, "O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum" <alerts@hoop.la>
wrote:

Is this your personal opinion or do you actually have facts to back up your statement?

Back in March 2004 I saw a radio-controlled "G-gauge" loco where the motor power was supplied by a battery in the car immediately behind it at the Fort Washington PA East Coast Hobby Show. They were using dcc for loco control. A brief summary was published in Train Collectors Quarterly Vol. 50-3 page 19.

 

The company was CVP Products. Their website is: www.cvpusa.com

 

Ron M

 

Whether it's battery or track power ,  I would like to  see the remote talk directly to the engine 's receiver..  Just think of all the wiring issues disappearing . (except for switches and accessories.)

I like the idea if the batteries are in the locomotive. I'm not pulling a special battery car.

 

Clem

To me the ongoing balkinization of control systems is a problem,   Setting aside the pros and cons of individual systems, the fact that we have so many different incompatible systems is a real waste.  I wish I did not have to have two command control systems to run both Lionel and MTH equipment.  Bachmann may add a Bluetooth system and maybe we will also get RC, all on top of conventional and Lionchief and some DCC.  I believe that if this could be standardized the total benefit to all (including manufacturers) would be great.  An analogy is the early days of computers when each manufacturer had software that would run only on its own equipment.  Software standards were created across manufacturers and the totally of the software world grew greatly. 

 

Bill

 

I agree with you Clem, that is what would need to happen to get me on board, in HO or O.  For me, than means it needs to fit into an EMD SW or ALCo S switcher on the diesel side, and at least a USRA 0-8-0 on the steam side (but would prefer the flexibility to have it fit in an 0-6-0 with a slope back tender).  

 

This technology constantly evolves, and will progress to this level soon enough.

 

Regards,

Jerry 

 

Hogwash!  What it eliminates is the function of the 3rd rail, not the rail itself, just as you state in the last sentence above. If you like the look, keep it, if not, remove it. Some might like RC better.

 

Simon

Thank you for all the information everyone posted in this thread. Are any of the battery systems (links) posted in this thread backwards compatible on existing DCC layouts? If I were to get a battery control system & convert the few locomotives I have to run off the battery, charged from the track or having a separate battery car, could I take those converted locomotives to any club that has contemporary DCC systems like Digitrax & run them along with typical DCC-equipped locomotives? I have bought Atlas-O Gold locomotives & MTH Protosound 3.0 locomotive since they can run on my DC powered track but also give me the option to run them on DCC layouts if needed? Do any of these battery power systems that flexible?

I have a 2-rail temporary loop on my basement floor. I am getting tired of the DC power pack I have been using for years due to the limited features & I am looking into getting a DCC starter set. This battery power seems even better for my needs.

These are just my opinion,

Thanks,

Naveen Rajan

Here is a nice free download of "O Scale Resource" magazine that has a great article on battery operation.  It is the March / April 2015 edition.  Can't beat the price.   

 

Home Page:

 

http://oscaleresource.com/

 

March / April 2015:

 

http://oscale.uberflip.com/t/6...the-o-scale-resource

 

Regards,

Jerry

 

Hi Clem! 

Installing the battery in a the locomotive,tender or dummy unit in a consist is ideal. I am still experimenting with this and I don't want to make to big an investment in an experiment that might go nowhere so I have the batteries in an express reefer for now. I am not going to abandon Legacy and DCS and convert 450+ locomotives. I've only converted three that had bad boards.

 

My interest in radio control with onboard batteries is purely for outside running.I envy the large scale guys who can do this. I bought three 1 gauge live steamers a couple of years back and tried them out.Alas,they are just too much trouble and extremely fussy so I sold them.

 

Have fun at York!

My posts are indeed hogwash.   Mostly they are opinion, and here I simply find the concept of interest.

 

My problem with O Scale is the inaccurate track gauge.  I have implemented cures for that.  If I were in 3-rail, I personally would have a serious problem with the track appearance, and a mild problem with those flanges.  If I were in 3- rail, I would simply convert to 2- rail.

 

I can assume that most here are in 3- rail because they like the looks of 3- rail track.  There are no rational reasons for them to consider 2-rail or battery power or any combination.  Three rail works fine for such folks.

 

Battery power may always remain a curiosity.  For those above maintaining that it is useless, you may in about five years start a thread called "told you so" and name me specifically.  The problem is, I won't care, since opinions are non- binding.

 

This is a little like religion, except that I really don't care who holds the same opinions that I do.  Choose to believe that batteries will never work in model trains.  I applaud your choice, but disagree.

 

 

Nice to hear from you Boomer  

 

Clem k

How many major manufacturers in any gauge presently offer this technology as a significant part of their product line for the serious hobbyist?  How many have announced plans to adopt it in the foreseeable future?  Is there a sufficient demand or viable market for it now or in the future?

 

Will either Lionel or MTH use this approach after each spending considerable money and effort on their own track powered command systems?

 

Will there ever be a battery system that can adequately replace the role of mains powered transformers, and would it be economically viable to market on a large scale?

 

 It seems a very narrow niche product at best.

The answers to those questions are unknown at this point in time. However, some Garden Railroads are using the technology and there is an article in the current issue of Model Railroader about this very thing. There are modelers in HO and O who are doing it.

 

So to say it is a complete and total nonsense thread about a technology that almost no one will want or adopt is a bit of an overstatement at best.

I only think one person said that, other have pointed out the middle road.  A few say this is better than anything else and the future for all.  (I embellished a little, but that is about what was said).

 

NO one seems to disagree that this is being done and has value to some.

 

Those that say this is new, discredit those that have been doing this for a decade or more. CVP, AC, etc..  Same applies to LC+

 

CVP is RC based with DCC code.  Doesn't care if it is powered from the rail or a battery pack, frankly, MTH PS-2 board doesn't care either.  It is rated for 22VAC or 24VDC.  So power the red and black wires with the power of your choosing.  If you chose battery in the engine, you can run the train on any hard surface, track not required.  Steering is optional.

 

I don't have G layout, so when I finish repairing battery trains, I just put them on the tile floor and test them out for motion, sounds, etc....

 

G