Amazing Radio Control - the future of Model Trains?

Going to York?  Stop by the RCS America booth in Orange Hall.  Batteries, RC, ...it's already available for trains.  I installed one in an LGB engine....Excellent!...and no worries about track cleanliness/oxidation!!! 

 

It's a-comin'!....slowly.

 

KD

It is being researched. I think I wrote a thread about it a year or so ago.  A number of HO companies have played around with totally self contained RC trains. No power to the track, all on board lipo's and RC unit via a ipad. Makes Legacy and TMCC look old. Two rail track, no power, no blocks just like trains run in real life. It's coming my friends!

R/C + battery model railroading has been around for a while. I'll not convert.....but it is promising. The G scale guys have had it the longest because the size required....but now it's available for all but maybe N and smaller......for now. 

This all looks really great.  Perhaps, a hopeful sign is that the first piece of equipment shown is in Lionel orange and blue colors.

 

What I don't understand is how are the battery requirements going to be met.  If you are running a decent size consist for a half an hour are you going to have to buy a Tesla and remove the battery to put in your engine.  Also, without track power how are you going to light up passenger cars?

Alan

Lionel magnetic gantry cranes, operating coal loaders, log loaders, milk cars, etc.

 

Lionel did it first. 

 

(Albeit not RC controlled and not as smooth in operation as these are)

The nice thing about the R/C Battery train is you won't have to convert your layout.  You will be able to run your RC Battery train on the same 3 rail track along side your Postwar, TMCC, Legacy and DCS trains if that is what you wish.

 

Several years ago I hooked up a Williams engine to one of my RC airplane receivers and speed controls.  I placed a lipo battery in a gondola behind it.  I did not have sound or reverse, but it was fun to try.  The systems they have now which are made for trains are outstanding. 

 

I have video of the Williams engine.  I'll try to dig it out.

 

Ron

 

There is one purposed system were the locos are battery powered R/C controlled but track has a constant 12-16 volts that charges batteries and run other items. But dirty track and polarity do not hamper running trains. Kinda hybrid system. 

What I don't understand is how are the battery requirements going to be met

The Lipo's they have now are outstanding.  You will be able to run trains for quite a while depending on the size battery.  On the "test" I talked about above I used a 3 cell (11.1 volt) 2200 mah battery and ran the train at a consistent scale speed around my layout for 40 minutes.  It's really all dependent on throttle management as we say in the RC Airplane world.

 

For sheer convenience, I would place the battery in a separate car other than the engine.  When the power winds down... swap out the car with another battery car and you are back in business.  Trains with their own fuel.

 

Ron

 

Will everyone just rip up their 3 rail track?

Probably not... I hope this technology will eliminate comparability issues and burnt boards...

I guess I'll have to dig out my old Tesla books on wireless power transmission.

What about these batteries that come with some power tools that will recharge in 5 minutes......not a 100% full but enough to finish a project etc. 

Think of a fueling station on your layout, much like real world, were a section of track would charge batteries in 5 minutes. That might add another level of real world.....our trains would need refueling! 

Radio Control... with no batteries or track power! 

 

They're out there.

http://www.remotecontrolthrottles.com/

 

 

 

Here's a smaller scale system.

 

http://www.s-cab.com/

 

 

I'm all for radio control and batteries...however, I don't think that battery power can support smoke units.  Wouldn't one need a separate battery just to power a smoke unit?

 

If so, please let us know.

 

Steve

I think LC+ is just the beginning. 

I can't believe how long ago this was... 2008.  My basement walls are finished now and this layout is gone.

 

As mentioned above this is a standard Williams switcher engine.  I put electrical tape on the pickup rollers and tied in a receiver, speed control and battery in the trailing gondola from one of my RC planes.  I used a Spekrum 2.4 radio.  There were no sounds.  I added them in post production.

 

This was just for fun.  The Williams engine was upgraded to PS2 now.

 

Pardon the goofy movie.  I had a new movie camera and was bit of a ham.

 

Ron

 

The technology is here: we just choose not to update our thinking.

 

I'm all for this because I hate wiring.  There's a lot of other advantages also.

 

 

One of my co-workers was just showing me a video of an HO engine he had done that to yeserday.

He said the works were about the size of his thomb.

I Loved the video... very funny.  

 

Much discussion over the years on the freerails forum on "deadrail".

Followed immediately by the crowed that doesn't want the batteries to have to be changed or charged, so some guy invents this new system with powered rails that recharge the batteries as it is used! 

 

How much did we learn about electricity, track planning, wiring, building layouts and hooking up operating accessories as kids?  Now we want it to run out of the box on the hardwood floor without track?  I think they have those trains too, but they tend to be plastic.

 

Everything has it's place.  The outdoor large scale guys have had this for quite a while.  Where it is very useful.  They also make O scale RC systems.  You probably can get 2 decent sized 12V packs in series or parallel in a large steam tender.  It is out there so you can upgrade your engines and do this.

 

Heck, The large scale guys remove the guts of the TIU and install it in a large scale car powered by a battery and run PS-2 engines via DCS outdoors with no power pack.   G

I better start selling off my locomotives so I can invest in the new battery powered stuff.

 

Ron, thanks for the video; very, very funny!

Thanks for sharing the video, and for the other examples of battery operated trains.  Having been into RC 1/10th scale cars and RC planes for 15+ years, I am glad to see where RC trains have come already.  I can see a hybrid layout as a real possibility to integrate what we have now with the battery versions. The idea of what Ron said about having the batteries in a separate car that can be swapped out is the way to go - reminds me of the RC10 off road "enduros" we used to have where we ran for 30 minutes and had to pit for battery swap-outs. Yeah, this one could cost me, but bring it on.  

So what is the difference between the RC frequency and the radio frequency from the rail to the onboard TMCC / Legacy antenna?

 

Why can we just broadcast the 455 KHz frequency in the room, rather than through the rail?

 

GRJ?  Please correct me...

 

Thanks,

Mario

I think Lee makes a good point, as he often does.   With LC and LC+ Lionel is already into radio control and more than half-way there.   The next step is to add battery power to LC and LC+.

 

I would like to see the hybrid battery with track power.   This will extend the running session before the battery runs down, and perhaps the battery can be recharged from track power.

 

Perhaps this could eventually allow the capability for 2-rail O using LC+battery.   No need for the third rail, return loops and such simply need to be electrically blocked to prevent short circuits - dead spaces in the track so a loco or car does not bridge opposing polarity track sections.   The RC+battery will not care about polarity of power on two outside rails, so no power reversing would be needed.   The LC+battery equipment could have a switch for either 3-rail or 2-rail.   Rolling stock would need to be converted to be 2-rail, so as not to short out the two outside rails from the wheelsets - both Atlas and MTH make 2-rail.   Sounds like a fun alternative, if Lionel were to go this way I would build a modest test layout to play with.

 

 

Add powered sidings to recharge batteries.

Ron - I think you put the Williams switcher RC video on the wrong post.  Didn’t you mean to put it on the “silliest thing about the hobby” post?

Battery tech would have to come a long way and the batteries would have to be easy to replace before I would even think about it.  We have lots of LEGO trains, all of them since LEGO went from rail power to RC control and battery boxes.  My son and I drain the batteries quick, and swapping the batteries out is a royal pain.  So more often then not they get pushed around the track.  Because of this, I would never want my layout to be RC/battery operated.  3 rail makes track power wiring so easy too (Come from N because of that.).  I like TMCC/Legacy because of the one remote to rule them all.  The only LC stuff I'll own is the Thomas stuff, and that's for my 2 year old so that he leaves my Cab-2 alone.

Ron - I think you put the Williams switcher RC video on the wrong post.  Didn’t you mean to put it on the “silliest thing about the hobby” post?

 

Yeah, I know.  My son even said to me yesterday, "You're putting that video online?  Ooooo Kaaaay!"

 

He's got to be an old soul at 12.  I told him I'd upgrade his Thomas to PS2.  "No Thanks."  I told him I'd make it a battery train.  "Nope", he replies.  Then I told him I'd buy him a new Lion Chief Thomas to replace the old one.  Then he says, "I like the one I have".

 

Smart Kid.

Ron

 

 

Ken, it's simple to ignore polarity and charge the batteries regardless of what's on the track, a bridge rectifier solves that issue.

 

Speaking of, I just got my May, 2015 issue of model railroader and, on the front cover:

running trains with batteries and radio control!

When I look at some of the wonderful layout folks have, and my own desires to have operating accessories, remote decoupling tracks, lighting, etc...   Why would having a battery train be desirable, when I want all those electrical accessories anyway?

 

PW folks have an aversion to batteries.  More modern like BCR.  So how large is the market for O gauge battery trains?  Will they leak, what will the cost be, what is the advantage?  When people say this is the future of model railroading, for who?

 

I think it is a niche, not new, and the folks who needed it most already have it.  Outdoor railroads.

 

Also, most electric trains have about 10amp max internal.

 

You need special safety switches/breakers in trains with 24V DC batteries capable of sourcing 30 or 40amps on a short internal.  You start welding and fires at those amperages.

 

I guess if the demand is great enough Lionel and MTH might build it, but Lionel has made battery trains, and they are considered the toy end of the Train Toy hobby.

 

 

 

 

I did this with a Williams switcher and the boards available from Crest Electronics ( Aristo Craft Trains )

 

This is the installation of the Train Engineer Revolution Receiver and DC board

This is a tether that I had installed   I have since installed a smaller connector

 

This was the original Lithium Ion battery I did the testing with   Since then John S made a drop center flat car that we put a 19.2 volt Drill battery into   We needed the low clearance to make it through the subway tunnels  

We use this engine to basically pull track cleaning cars through hard to get areas

 

 

Hmmm for someone like me who has an aversion to electricity, this might be a good possibility!

I like the idea of the remote (transmitter) talking directly to a receiver in the engine. Whether it's battery operated  or battery operated with a charging system from the track makes no difference to me.  The Airplane guys transmitter has a great range(at least 1/2 mile) and could never figure out why the dcs remote 's range was only  around 50 feet.  No tiu, no command base. now we get into switches and accessories. what happens with them ? I don't know. 

This is exactly what I like about all the construction vehicles.  There is direct control from the operator to the vehicle via a radio signal.  There is no Legacy controller, TIU, etc., between the vehicle and the operator.  They are all running together in close proximity without interference.  The steering, dumping, shovels, etc., all work.

 

I don't care if power comes from batteries or a constant voltage on the track.  In fact, I think that constant voltage track power is better than battery power.  It is always available.

 

What I think we need in O gauge is reliable control of the engines wherever they are on the track.  I don't feel that either Legacy or DCS give positive engine control - especially over longer distances such as on a garden railroad.  At least this has been my experience.

 

The new Lion Chief Plus system seems to a step in that direction.  I bet a VL Big Boy controlled by a Lion Chief Plus system that includes all the bells, whistles, smoke and disappearing coal load of the current BB would be a runaway best seller.

 

Joe

Batteries are rapidly improving, in large part because of the growth of electric vehicles, not just Tesla, and as battery technology is improved to increase the range and power of batteries (and charging time) for cars, it is going to come down to other products, the technology is basically the same whether the batteries are in a Tesla or the reported Apple car, or your train (basically, the difference is in the number of cells). So what people are saying is very true, some on here are posting as if it is 30+ years ago and we are talking Ni Cad technology, ask the RC guys about what the LI batteries in electric RC planes are like, the difference is staggering. 

For cryin' out loud guys I'm still learning how to use my legacy system.  Please slow down a little bit.