An Amtrak train struck a work crew with a backhoe. Two workers killed. Lead loco derailed. Story still developing.
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Very tragic! CNN reported this accident just south of Philly. Southbound train. CNN said the train was on tracks owned by BNSF. I was not aware that BNSF owned trackage out here in the east. I thought Amtrak owned the trackage from NY to DC.
trumptrain posted:Very tragic! CNN reported this accident just south of Philly. Southbound train. CNN said the train was on tracks owned by BNSF. I was not aware that BNSF owned trackage out here in the east. I thought Amtrak owned the trackage from NY to DC.
CNN has no idea what they are talking about. The tracks are indeed owned by Amtrak.
Typical news misinformation/lack of understanding. The pictures show the struck equipment was a Loram track maintenance. My guess is that part may have been fouling the active rails. It is a tragedy for sure with two workers killed. It also appears that the impact sent parts flying which also blew out a window on the first passenger car. The leading truck on the engine appears to be off the rails, but otherwise upright. There is a significant dent on the leading edge of the Sprinter. The windows are also spidered.
ES44AC posted:trumptrain posted:Very tragic! CNN reported this accident just south of Philly. Southbound train. CNN said the train was on tracks owned by BNSF. I was not aware that BNSF owned trackage out here in the east. I thought Amtrak owned the trackage from NY to DC.
CNN has no idea what they are talking about. The tracks are indeed owned by Amtrak.
CNN's story shifts to reference the Kansas (where BNSF does indeed own the tracks) derailment in the last two paragraphs.
Rusty
2 Killed After Amtrak Train Hits Backhoe, Derails
An Amtrak train struck a piece of construction equipment just south of Philadelphia on Sunday causing a derailment, killing two people and sending more than 30 others to hospitals, authorities said.
Train 89 was heading from New York to Savannah, Georgia, at about 8 a.m. when it hit a backhoe that was on the track in Chester, about 15 miles outside of Philadelphia, officials said. The impact derailed the lead engine of the train, which was carrying more than 300 passengers and seven crew members.
Chester fire commissioner Travis Thomas said two people were killed, but neither was a passenger on the train. Authorities provided no additional information on the fatalities. Thomas and Amtrak officials said more than 30 people were taken to hospitals with injuries that weren't considered life-threatening.
The National Transportation Safety Board was investigating. Officials with the Federal Railroad Administration were also sent to the scene, said Matthew Lehner, a spokesman for the agency.
Service on the Northeast Corridor between New York and Philadelphia is operating after an earlier suspension. Service between Wilmington, Delaware, and Philadelphia remains suspended.
Ari Ne'eman, a disability rights activist heading to Washington after speaking at an event in New York, said he was in the second car at the time of the crash.
"The car started shaking wildly, there was a smell of smoke, it looked like there was a small fire and then the window across from us blew out," said Ne'eman, 28, of Silver Spring, Maryland.
Some of the passengers started to get off after the train stopped, but the conductor quickly stopped them. Officials started evacuateing people to the rear of the train and then off and to a local church.
"It was a very frightening experience. I'm frankly very glad that I was not on the first car," where there were injuries, he said. "The moment that the car stopped, I said Shema, a Jewish prayer ... I was just so thankful that the train had come to a stop and we were OK."
This derailment comes almost a year after an Amtrak train originating from Washington D.C. bound for New York City derailed in Philadelphia. Eight people were killed and more than 200 were injured in the May 12 crash. The exact cause of that crash is still under investigation, but authorities have said the train had been traveling twice the speed limit.
In reality, BNSF does "own" some of Amtrak! When Amtrak was starting up, from what I understand, railroads could joint by providing equipment, money direct, or taking some sort of stock option. BN did obtain some Amtrak stock, and did not sell. Hence, due to merger, BNSF "owns" part of Amtrak.
Now, that is what I have heard. Now, this could also be some sort of myth!
Somebody really screwed up big time. See where the investigation goes.
My wife just asked if there were flagmen posted. It seems inconceivable that there were none, if that be the case. I know, from watching trains as most of us probably do, that you cannot hear a train until it is almost on top of you.
Back in 1984 I was doing some work on the roof of Breyers Ice Cream plant, off of Woodland Ave. Of course I was paying attention to the Amtrak trains rolling by. There were track workers on the tracks for a few days. There was also two flagmen, posted a couple hundred yards away from the track workers. Each of them had an air horn that was easily heard from my location on the roof.
Dominic Mazoch posted:In reality, BNSF does "own" some of Amtrak! When Amtrak was starting up, from what I understand, railroads could joint by providing equipment, money direct, or taking some sort of stock option. BN did obtain some Amtrak stock, and did not sell. Hence, due to merger, BNSF "owns" part of Amtrak.
Now, that is what I have heard. Now, this could also be some sort of myth!
The idiots at CNN would NOT have known such information that is over 40 years old. What really happened was, the CNN folks got confused between the Amtrak derailment, out in Kansas, a few weeks ago, with the current "event" that happened on the Northeast Corridor this morning.
Hot Water posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:In reality, BNSF does "own" some of Amtrak! When Amtrak was starting up, from what I understand, railroads could joint by providing equipment, money direct, or taking some sort of stock option. BN did obtain some Amtrak stock, and did not sell. Hence, due to merger, BNSF "owns" part of Amtrak.
Now, that is what I have heard. Now, this could also be some sort of myth!
The idiots at CNN would NOT have known such information that is over 40 years old. What really happened was, the CNN folks got confused between the Amtrak derailment, out in Kansas, a few weeks ago, with the current "event" that happened on the Northeast Corridor this morning.
The article has been updated and no longer references the Kansas derailment.
However, there was no confusion. What the previous article did mention was that this derailment happened less than a month after the derailment occurred on the BNSF in Kansas. It did not imply that BNSF owned the Philly tracks in any way, shape or form.
What CNN was pointing out was there were two Amtrak derailments in different parts of the country within a month.
Rusty
Still lousy reporting but they have mentioned, also, the curve derailment almost a year ago when there is no connection at all between the accidents. Funny they haven't mentioned "acts of terrorism -or have they !!
The focus is always on PTC and locomotive safety. When will the focus be on Amtrak's aging single level coach fleet. Its doesn't seem to take much to blow a hole through the side of an Amfleet car. Time for a new fleet of coaches.
Is there an issue with the Amfleet coaches ?
The cars are Aluminum. When you hit something going that speed, not muck is going to help it. If they go back to heavier cars, speeds will be down and not as efficient. The cars are safe, no need to change them. PTC, would not have helped here either. A case of MOW on the track, and not protected. Plain and simple.
Yes definitely in this case I agree. This just prompted my thought about the coaches. The Amfleet cars rattle and vibrate, I rode 178 recently from Boston on a trip and the panels above the seat were hanging loose and you could see where it was rigged with velcro. Compare to coaches on Via or European trains. There has to be newer tech out there for coaches with strong yet light construction.
Yes, they are older. Amtrak does not have the budget to buy new cars to replace all the old ones. Some of the older ones, do need rebuilding, but at what costs. There is a saying on the RR, Ugly, is not a defect. I remember riding them back in the 70's when they were old RR passenger cars.
When were the different sets of Amfleet added? I know the short haul ones were in the 70's but Amfleet II was early 80's right? The worst looking Amtrak cars are those Horizon coaches. A side note...Aluminum can be stronger than steel in some cases.
Amfleet cars came out in 75. The Amfleet II in 81 i believe. There is not telling how many miles are on them, and what they have been thru. Aluminum in some cases are stronger. I have been to too many Amtrak derailments and the cars have always held up. Nothing ever hit them from the side like these cars. When something hits the window, it tears it, out, the next thing is the frame, so damage is bound to happen.
Those ACS 64 engines cost some serious money, around 6 million each. That is two down that I count, this one and the bad one in north Philly.
Amfleet cars were built by Budd, who used stainless steel.
I'm riding on one as I type this:, car# 25111 on the northbound Crescent (Train 20)
(yes, I'm using the onboard Wifi)
---=PCJ
All Amfleet cars are constructed of spot-welded stainless steel. Only the Lionel cars are made of aluminum...
Jon 
Some unofficial, preliminary , "rumor" has it that the maintenance of way work crew just might have been on the wrong track that they were assigned to be on. The NTSB and FRA are obviously heavily involved.
Just reading some of the news stories on this. The press is of course building the "trains are dangerous" case. Yet accident's like this probably happen often on highways...cars or trucks hitting road workers. Its just magnified in the current situation.
The WAll Street Journal says a "miscommunication at the shift change" was the cause. Funny that there aren't more photos of the wreck. Was it a real back hoe or a LORAM track machine ?? Caused a lot of damage to the front of the engine. No mention of the speed but they had left the station so, maybe, not too high. Sad occurence.
Human error........news tonight showed a traditional backhoe that was traveling on the rails parallel with the track....per the Amtrak cab camera. Two killed were on the backhoe. Not sure what track speed is there....but why could not the works get off the backhoe??? Very sad.
AMCDave posted:Human error........news tonight showed a traditional backhoe that was traveling on the rails parallel with the track....per the Amtrak cab camera. Two killed were on the backhoe. Not sure what track speed is there....but why could not the works get off the backhoe??? Very sad.
Well for one thing, the passenger train was running about 100 MPH (authorized normal speed would have been 110 MPH for that equipment). According to reports, the operator of the "backhoe" was NOT looking towards the direction of the train, but on the work he was performing with the "backhoe".
How quickly do you think that YOU could jump off your equipment, if a train was bearing down on you at about 100 MPH, and you were not even looking for it?
And this shows that PTC cannot prevent all bad situations.
But if those tracks were really out of service, could the DS set up the PTC to stop trains within the work limits?
Was there a person along the ROW who was watching the tract warrants, signals, personal, equipment.......... Electrics are very quiet. But a 100 MPH train is covering a mile in 36 seconds. There is no room for error!
Hot Water posted:AMCDave posted:Human error........news tonight showed a traditional backhoe that was traveling on the rails parallel with the track....per the Amtrak cab camera. Two killed were on the backhoe. Not sure what track speed is there....but why could not the works get off the backhoe??? Very sad.
Well for one thing, the passenger train was running about 100 MPH (authorized normal speed would have been 110 MPH for that equipment). According to reports, the operator of the "backhoe" was NOT looking towards the direction of the train, but on the work he was performing with the "backhoe".
How quickly do you think that YOU could jump off your equipment, if a train was bearing down on you at about 100 MPH, and you were not even looking for it?
I didn't know the speed.....thus why I ASKED. Was not accusing.....thinking out loud. chill
PS PTC would have come into play if the tracks had officially been labeled as 'work area'......per NBC NEWS and NTSB so don't hang me if wrong
The train was going 106 MPH. Backhoe was tramming down the track in front of train. PTC would not have stopped this accident, unless the track was either out of service. If a work Authority was on the track, Amtrak would have to had verbal clearance from an employee in charge, to enter the work limits. That can not/should not be done is the track is not safe, or clear of men and equipment.
Loram track cleaner was working on the adjacent track. I surmise the beach was enroute to site and on the wrong track to get around equipment. Not all equipment shunts the track. I know our backhoe did not shunt the track when tramming. It could be made too, but limits as to where it can tram. The two men had their backs to Amtrak, Backhoe cab equipped, hard to get out of quickly.
A few questions, I have, was this straight track? If so, how long? Was backhoe completely fouling/tramming down the wrong track? Why didn't Amtrak start slowing down quicker than the 5 seconds before impact if track was straight? Why were those two men and their backhoe on the wrong track, unless they had permission and the flagman screwed up. If that is the case, why didn't Amtrak start slowing down quicker than the 5 seconds before impact if track was straight?
I am sure, more will come out in the next few days. Very preventable accident.
Gene posted:A few questions, I have, was this straight track? If so, how long? Was backhoe completely fouling/tramming down the wrong track? Why didn't Amtrak start slowing down quicker than the 5 seconds before impact if track was straight? Why were those two men and their backhoe on the wrong track, unless they had permission and the flagman screwed up. If that is the case, why didn't Amtrak start slowing down quicker than the 5 seconds before impact if track was straight?
There were some passenger comments that the train went through a dust cloud before the impact. If the track workers were doing ballast work, they could have created such a cloud. When the train emerged, the engineer might have had only seconds to activate the emergency stop, albeit too late.
If that be the case and knowing how the Loram machine works. I would say, the backhoe was assisting Loram, by sitting on the track, and loosing up the fouled ballast. Would have been dusty, and sight distance would have been cut down.
Still only speculation. But since I worked out there, I am interested as to seeing the facts.
Still a tragic, and two people were not able to go home Sunday. I few for the rest of the crew and train crew as well.
Prob was some type of backhoe on the track adjacent..maybe part of a loram track group with mixed Amtrak and vendor employees. Do NEC trains not slow through work zones? Just curious.
I'm out of touch with track permits and how things are done today. However at one time a pilot Conductor would be in charge of the work limits & responsible for the safe operation of the work equipment. He wasn't concerned about how much ballast or how other track work was being performed. He job was getting work orders and track permits. Even then bad things can still happen. This is so sad..
After listening to the NTSB, they still have crew interviews to do, and several other things to investigate before rendering their findings.
Loram machinery was on the adjacent track, backhoe was fouling the live main track assisting the Loram machine. On CSX, trains do not have to slow down around this type of work, larger scale, yes. The EIC can request passing trains to slow down, during his release to the train. The EIC has to be concerned of all track work that is being done under his jurisdiction. It is his responsibility to know what work is being performed and proper protection is given.
I think we will hear in a few days, Human error, in several circumstances.
I heard what it was this evening (I have connections): Human error.
I do not think it appropriate to say who, what, or how until the NTSB announces it themselves.
I am sure the most prevalent cause is out. Just as you stated, NTSB will have it covered.
I can imagine, who was, and what it was at fault. Not fair to speculate. I have been through those investigations, and they are not fun. You know the cause, just have to go through the formalities.
So tired of "journalists" reporting poorly-researched stories that contradict the facts portrayed by their own video footage.
Almost EVERY story refers to the "lead locomotive". There was only ONE locomotive (motor actually). So why do they keep calling it the "lead" locomotive?
My favorite? NBC saying that the locomotive "became detached from the track". What?!
Jon
KOOLjock1 posted:So tired of "journalists" reporting poorly-researched stories that contradict the facts portrayed by their own video footage.
Almost EVERY story refers to the "lead locomotive". There was only ONE locomotive (motor actually). So why do they keep calling it the "lead" locomotive?
My favorite? NBC saying that the locomotive "became detached from the track". What?!
Jon
Or the CG recreation shows the train being lead by a diesel?
TV news people are not the brightest bulbs on the string-trust me. And the news crew is often facing a deadline to have the story ready to put on the air. Of course, this accident happened in the morning so you would think by the evening news they would have it right but, they don't know it is wrog.
