Are We Behind With Our Steam Programs?

Much more difficult do accomplish in our country, due to the insurance/liability problems. We live in a highly litigious society, were everyone is ready to take someone, or some corporation, to court over the silliest issue. Thus, all excursions must be run under the "protection" of Amtrak and their insurance umbrella.

Not just steam.  The recent DIESEL passenger trip to the Galveston RR Museum was run under the "Amtrak Unbrella".

That's for sure. When I visited some vintage railway operations in Australia four years ago, I was informally invited to a shop tour and even a cab ride - something that would be difficult or impossible to happen in USA.

Hotwater hit the nail right on the head.  I say support those that are operating right now how ever you can.

As was IRM's E5/Nebraska Zephyr trip to Galesburg.

Rusty

How about we strive to keep the ones operational now in that condition rather than go for "quantity"?

DV

DV you're right. Trying to keep the ones we have running is a very expensive proposition. The Steam Railroading Institute is 2/3 of the way through the 15 year rebuild of the Pere Marquette 1225 at a cost of almost $900,000. We are still in need of money to finish up. Check it out here:

http://www.indiegogo.com/michigansteamtrain

Ron

Thanks for the link Ron, great to see the work is progressing.

Josh, I agree.

We can all help a little in the effort.

Do you support any of the tourist railroads with volunteer time or donations?

Operating and display engines!

Really? 3985,844,4449,3751,765, 1225 is getting its 15year overhaul, 261 is running again after nearly ending up on static display. Rumors of a 2900 northern rebuild, and even bigboy restoration "talk", not to mention a host of smaller operating steamers I have missed. I think as far as American steam is concerned things haven't been better especially given the current economic conditions as well as safety regulations etc.

Besides, when it comes to "big and powerful" American steamers are second to none.I'd take one operating berkshire or northern over 10 of those fancy, frilly, european steamers any day

Speaking of which, any progress on the 1361? Or will it never run again?

The 2900 is much more than a rumor...http://www.nmslrhs.org/ 

While the US does have some prime and high profile locomotives still in operation, along with the smaller scenic lines running smaller equipment (Porters and so on), the US roster of operating steam is descreasing a little due to money, insurance, regulations, any number of reasons.

However, if you look at the UK as a comparative example, there is a lot more steam running there, even to the extent of the pacific locomotive "Tornado" being built brand new!

I think it comes down to general attitude toward steam: the US does have dedicated followers, operators and preservationists.  But here it seems to be more a hobby, whereas somewhere like the UK it's viewed as a crucial part of their history and a point of pride.  Not saying it isn't here in the US, but more of the general public view it that way there than here.

You can look at a photo of a yard of operating steam locomotives in the UK and think it was 1930, but it was taken last year.

We have too many same type engines restored.  765 and 1225 basically the same engine.  3751 and a 2900 not much difference except weight and long tender.  Lets get the NW A and J back on the rails.  How about the Frisco 4-8-2 and engines like that.  It appears the US is in love with northerns and berkshires.

I know that restorations need big engines to pull long trains to haul tons of money paying customers,  but the museum in duluth, mn has the soo line pacific which pulls 2 and 3 car trains on a great trip to two harbors mn afew times a year, now the pacific is due for boiler work but the soo mikado ready to go in it place so no interruption in service.  Now that is a first class run museum.

What's wrong with that??

DV

I find it absolutely amazing that at a time when we have more main line steam running in the United states than we have had since the mid-90's, people now want to complain that we don't have enough variety to choose from. Good grief.

I have said this here before, but it bears repeating...

If some of you were given $1 million in 50-dollar bills, you would complain that it was too heavy to carry. 

For those thinking of doing the math, or looking it up, here's your answer:

$1 Million in $1's     weighs: 2204.622621 lbs

$1 Million in $50's   weighs: 44.052 lbs (20,000 $50 Bills)

$1 Million in $100's weighs: 22.026 lbs (10,000 $100 Bills)

Lets think about what is out there right now or soon to return or be added and I think you can see there is a good representation out there right now.  Not to mention all I didn't list here.

Nickel Plate Road S-2 #765

Possibly Nickel Plate Road #763 in the future.

Nickel Plate Road #587

Pere Marquette N-1 #1225

Southern Pacific GS-4 #4449

Southern Pacific P-8 #2472

Union Pacific FEF-3 #844

Union Pacific Challenger #3985

Possibly Union Pacific 4***? Big Boy

Milwaukee Road S-3 #261

SP&S #700

ATSF #3751

Soon to be added ATSF 2926

Southern #610

Southern #630

Southern #4501

L&N #152 ( down for 15yr rbld)

So the question of are we behind......uhhhmmmm No.  I think we are just fine...you know...leave them wanting more...

The US, compared to Great Britain, is a large country.   We do have a lot of steam to see, photograph and ride behind, not to mention that we should all be helping support the efforts of those that are responsible.  In addition to Chris's list there are other "tourist railroads"  (hate to use that term; it sounds so corny) like the Durango and Silverton, Cumbres and Toltec, Nevada Northern and many others.  One problem, as I mentioned is that our country is so large that it would be hard to get around to experience all of them.  As I understand, most of the activity in England is centered around York where their National Railroad Museum resides.

But, all of us, this very New Year, should strive to visit, support, and help out all of the operations that we are blessed with right here.

Paul Fischer

The reason for this?? A: thats what was built latest in steam era, and what was stuck in parks... and B: If you're going to pull excursions, you need an engine big enough to get the job done that will pull enough cars to pay for the expenses of the trip...

here is a link that shows where all our heritage lines are located

http://www.heritage-railways.com/map.php

Regards,

Neil

I find it funny you guys are complaining about no variety and want more engines in operation, etc. I think most of you think these operations are rolling in dough. If they were you WOULD SEE more engines getting refurbished. The FACT IS most of these operations are running on the edge of the fiscal cliff and could fall off at any time. I have said it before and I'll say it again "Most people don't have a clue on how much money and work it takes to keep big steam running". You want the 611 running again? It's really simple, mount an effort to collect a million five and get the money in hand. Once you have that done the rest is a piece of cake.

Just my opinion,

Ron

Well said Ron.  I believe Steve Lee said they don't burn fuel they burn money.  So donate what you can to which ever group you can, buy merchandise & DVDS from them ect...$$$ help keep these treasures operating.

There are very good reasons...

• VERSATILITY
  Engines like the 765, 4449, 844, 261, etc. can go almost anywhere and turn on almost any wye. They are not so heavy that they pose an undue burden on bridges and track structure. Their axle loadings are actually LESS than the heaviest freight cars in use today.
• PHYSICAL SIZE
  The engines mentioned above do not have any significant clearance issues. Typically the most critical area for clearances on a steam locomotive is in the bottom 3 feet of the engine. The cylinders can pose a clearance problem down low, but these engines are able to negotiate all but the tightest clearances.
• POWER
  An excursion engine running today has to be able to pull a large enough train to make money. That means at least 12 cars, and more if the railroad grade profile will allow it. NKP 765 has pulled the longest excursion passenger trains in the word, at 34 cars. And we made a little money doing it. The other engines in this list are right at home with 12-14 cars. If a smaller locomotive can only handle four or five cars, it unlikely that engine will be able to make any money running excursions because they cannot sell enough tickets.
• SPEED
  Any steam locomotive running today has to be able to maintain at least 40 mph and run all day without problems. That is a piece of cake for the locomotives in my short list above. Many of them can settle in at 80 mph and run all day at that speed.
• RELIABILITY
  This is a big one. In today's world of Class 1 railroading, a steam locomotive has to be reliable over the road. Steaming problems, hot bearings and any other issues that cause an engine to suffer road failures are a huge operating problem for the host railroad. Older locomotives with plain (non-roller) bearings on the axles can have problems today because suitable lubrication is tough to find. If the bearings have not been converted to oil and still use the old grease cakes, finding a suitable grease to use in those bearings today is tough.
  
  A plain bearing locomotive converted to oil (such as the 4449) can be just as reliable as a roller bearing engine. But older, smaller power, perhaps owned by organizations without the resources to convert the old bearings to oil, simply can't handle the stresses of all-day running because the proper lube just isn't available any more.

These are but a few reasons why "...the US is in love with northerns and berkshires..."

Regarding the UK vs. USA and quantity of operational steam locomotives, what is their law suit environment there? The UK is certainly not richer then the USA, although it is the 7th largest economy, worldwide. But clearly they have a heck of a lot more locomotives operating. Why?

Why? Because their society does NOT revolve around the legal profession, and all the ambulance chasing attorneys that we have in our country!

I'm always amazed and gratified when "Trains" magazine publishes their annual tourist railroad guide, at how many steam locomotives the U.S. still has operating.

A couple of comments on what I remember of the UK's legal atmosphere:

1.  Your barrister and your solicitor will most likely try to convince to not sue as you won't collect their fees.  Each side pays their own fees

2.  Suing for "pain and suffering" is out

3.  No contingency fees

ChipR

I thought 4449 was buit in such a way so the driver bearings were constantly lubed.  SP identified these with stars on the center of the wheel.  Or was the type of lube used changed.

No, the "type of lube" was NOT changed. But what does this have to due with the title subject?

Mark,

I guess that we had the good fortune that one particular scrap yard based in South Wales  concentrated on cutting up large volumes of rolling stock in the 60's and 70's instead of locomotives because it was easier. You can read all about the yard at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodham_Brothers I'm sure that some people here know about this remarkable place. There was a good cross section of motive power to satisfy the needs of many heritage lines which needed specific sized engines. In total about 218 engines were pulled out while others beyond salvage were used as a sourace of spares.

So with all these engines they needed to go somewhere, hence the number of organisations that sprang up purchasing lengths of track from the government after the Beeching act to close non profit elements of our system. This then gave these start ups the ability to run a service. It has to be said that most, if not all of these engines from South Wales were in no condition to run immediately. In reality they were the subject of many years of restoration. 

A number of society's/groups etc were set up specifically to restore just one engine or several engines. At the same time these people were/are affiliated to a heritage line and both parties come to an operating agreement. Engines are also be owned by the lines themselves. As of now we do see a large number of engines in service or in for overhaul but this has evolved slowly over the last 30 years with many people from all walks of life volunteering to help these lines keep running. It is the volunteers that I believe have been the key to where we are now. In the beginning we ran what could be restored quickly to kick start the preservation movement into a long term viable business.

I would say the big difference between us is that we have a good number of dedicated lines running steam all over the country and the public does not have to travel huge distances to see them in action. In fact many families will make a day of it visiting a line and depending where the stations are, there are also other non railway things to entertain people. For the serious steam fan that may not want to travel all over the country, you will also find that engines will move between heritage lines on loan for a period of time, just to ring the changes and have variety.

There is a lot more to the above but I think it does give a reasonable explanation to the question.

Regards,

Neil

HW, I would say we are equal to you now with our legal beagles chasing a good case if they can smell a win! In fact we as the public will have our hand up within seconds of something happening looking for someone to represent us.

Regards,

Neil

I have little knowledge on our law but I do believe that depending on the outcome of a case that either party could end up paying costs for both sides.

The law here will only discourage you if they feel that they will not win, but again I'm sure there are plenty of greedy lawyers out there will take a case on regardless!!

We also have those no win, no fee lot here as well as you do, so in reality anything is considered fair game to pursue.

A shame. The UK seems to emulate all the dopey things done in the USA.

Neil/UKaflyer - Yes, I had heard about that miraculous scrap yard. We have a trans-national scrap yard here and in Canada. That being steam locomotives banished to park display and subsequently ignored by their communities. We seem to lack capital committment. I guess rich guys don't like steam!? But judging young folks with their ears and eyeballs glued to pointless electronic machines, I am not surprised. I am very glad I grew up when I did - so much richer a time!

We had at least one example of a scrap merchant saving an entire railroad and steam operation. The East Broad Top and the Kovalchick family which acquired the railroad for scrap value, then reconstituted it in 1960. Just a wonderful turn of events!

I think the fact remains that we do have a good number of locomotives operating in this country  When you factor in all the tourist roads across the nation along with the main line steam that captures most of the attention the number is quite large considering the economics of it all.

As a side question what is freight traffic and everyday passenger traffic like across the pond?