ATSF Prairie vs. Pacific?

I thought the Prairie was more of a light steam engine, many were rebuild upgraded 4-6-0 locomotives. The Northern Pacific had many of these, but they were unstable for higher speeds, thus not optimal for passenger service. The Pacific was built with more passenger service in mind, better center of gravity for speeds excess of 50 mph. The light pacific was a much more improved design.

Some of the Prairie engines were great freight engines they were rebuilt to class W-4 Mikados and used up to the late 50's. 

Here is a picture for comparison of an early class Q locomotive. They had larger boilers and were a very well balanced locomotive. The drivers were larger and specifically balanced for higher speeds

Lee,

The answer to your question is found in Worley's "Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail".  Copies available on abebooks.com.

The short, simplified, answer is that the Prairies, for the most part, predate the Pacifics and were designed for the freight and passenger trains of  that time.  As trains got longer and heavier, larger locos were needed; hence Pacifics, Mikados, etc.  In later years the Prairies were downgraded to mainline helpers and branchline main power.  Five members of one light Pacific class were converted to Prairies.

The only Santa Fe Prairie in O Scale that I am aware of is from PRB, who imported 25 models of the 1800 class.

ChipR 

I was surprised in reading through your posting that the driver size was the same

for ATSF Prairies and Pacifics.   I was long annoyed when getting back into three

rail that all that seemed available were what I considered passenger engines, with

(expected) larger diameter drivers.  Pennsy K series comes to mind with famous

passenger applications.  The Prairie I would have expected to be on smaller drivers,

for slower speeds, but with a designed ability to start and move heavier loads.  And

I thought of this wheel arrangement as that found on short and branch lines doing

every job, as were 4-6-0's.  However, with prototype steamers historically seen in

every kind of application, no matter what the wheel arrangement, I now have no

idea what was the driving force in selection of wheel arrangement, except that larger

fireboxes required trailing truck support, more drivers meant more traction, and

larger loads meant larger locos.

I think the Pacific with the 4-wheel lead truck was capable of higher speeds.   At least I think that was the design theory.   

The Prairie type was the next evolutionary step in steam motive power, from the Mogul (2-6-0) and Consolidation (2-8-0). The trailing truck allowed for a larger firebox, greater steam generation and more power at speed. Once the trailing truck "genie was out of the bottle", the benefit of a larger firebox rather rapidly spawned bigger locomotives. The Atlantic (4-4-2) was the next evolutionary step for passenger power, from the American Standard (4-4-0). Presume the Pacific (4-6-2) was the next evolutionary step from the Atlantic. From what I can see, very little engineering is a blinding breakthrough, rather progressive refinement of design.

Thank you everyone.  This helps a lot.  I reviewed all the data on the steamlocomotive.com website about atsf locos after reading this and see the differences in the trend of development of the Pacifics and Prairies.  Also ordered a copy of Worley's book.  

thank you!

Lee,

For a complete discussion of the development of steam locomotives, look for a copy of "The Steam Locomotive in America", by Alfred Bruce.  The author was a VP at ALCO and wrote the book at the end of steam loco manufacturing.  Available on abebooks for under $50.

ChipR

The 2-6-2 Prairie type had a brief moment in the sun between the turn of the last century and the start of WW 1.  Some were built as freight power for flat districts, on the Prairies.  Others were built for fast freight and passenger service. 

As steel passenger cars and faster schedules became common the larger boiler that a Pacific could carry with an extra axle was needed to make more horsepower at speed.  Pacifics also tended to ride well at speed.  Many tall drivered Prairies had a tendency to hunt laterally if attempting to move at a quick pace.

The CB&Q was another road with high drivered Prairies.  I do not believe they were very well regarded by the Q.

The Northern Pacific had many of these............

Some of the Prairie engines were great freight engines they were rebuilt to class W-4 Mikados and used up to the late 50's.

 

The NP Class T 2-6-2s were built with 63 inch drivers and were intended for freight service.  They were purchased at the same time as the NPs Class W 2-8-2s with idea that the 2-6-2s would handle mainline freights on the flatter east end of the system and the Mikados would take over on the more heavily graded west end.

As it turned out the Ts were not very good locomotives.  They had the same fire box size as the Mikes but a much shorter boiler.  They suffered from poor steaming qualities due to incomplete combustion and had a reputation for starting line side fires.  The six that were rebuilt into 2-8-2s had much of their extended length used to add a combustion chamber.  The W-4s were much better steamers that the Ts and used fuel more efficiently but were not repeated due to the cost of the rebuilding.  Many more Ts were converted to T-1s for yard switching.

The Burlington's 2-6-2's lasted into the early '50's (there were 37 on the June 1, 1950 locomotive assignment sheet). Have no knowledge of how they were regarded, but would feel that longevity would imply that they were reasonably succesful. Think they were just outmoded by the large number of Mikados the Q had, that did the same tasks better. Prairie #2219 pulled one of the first Burlington steam fantrips, a jaunt up the Prague Branch for the Omaha-based Camerail Club, in 1950. Some of the Burlington Prairies were leased to the Southern Pacific in WWII. Someone liked them!

The Lake Shore & Michigan Southern had quite a fleet of high-drivered (81") Prairies that were used on the mainline. As noted elsewhere, they were prone to "nosing" down the track which had to be incredibly scary to the crew rolling along at 80 or 90 mph. Yes, they were rebuilt into Pacifics by the NYC.

Neil

Thank you everyone for all the info.  It helped alot.  I will soon complete my bashing conversion of a Lionchief Plus Hudson to a presentation of ATSF 1800 class and all this helped a lot.  And a specail thanks to ChipR for the recommendation of E. D. Worley's Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail. I managed to find a shopworn but complete copy from 1965 for an affordable $48.  It just arrived.  It is big!!!!!!  8.5 by 11.5 inch pages - 476 text and photos and then 124 pages of drawings of each type.  Just excellent - And when I first opened it, there on the overleaf: a photo of Praire number 1809, which I am modeling.   Wow!

I find this ATSF 2-6-2 really interesting.

Note the tall domes, Pensy style cow catcher, coal load and white painted drive rods. I'm guessing these pics were taken right after it was shopped... This loco would make a great model. :/

1010 is a lovely loco.  But I'm making a model of one of the later ATSF Prairies, the 1800 class, some of which were kept in service into the period I model (1950s - some of them were run up to the early '50s).  The 1800s had slightly wider, lower domes, and in the time period I am modeling them ('40s onward) had been converted to oil and had their tenders converted with square upper tanks.  

I'm guessing these pics were taken right after it was shopped...

1010 was historically significant and a TV star.  Judging by it's diesel company, the pictures from the 50's.  In 1955, 1010 was refurbished and used for a television re-enactment of the Scott Special for the "Death Valley Days" program about the special train. This locomotive was also prominently featured in a 1958 episode of the TV series Sky, entitled "Stop That Train".  

It is considered the most historic of the Santa Fe Prairies. 

The 2-6-2 Prairies were suited to Great Plains service (across the Prairies), where steep grades were seldom encountered, and heavy drawbar pull was not required.

They were in their heyday when Oklahoma achieved Statehood in 1907 and the Sooners boarded them from points East to come out to stake a claim in the territory where the "Wind comes sweepin' down the plain" (From the Musical and film "Oklahoma!")

That's all,

Bad Order

The Burlington's 2-6-2's lasted into the early '50's (there were 37 on the June 1, 1950 locomotive assignment sheet). Have no knowledge of how they were regarded, but would feel that longevity would imply that they were reasonably succesful.

Many locomotives lasted a log time because they were simple and paid for.  Longevity doesn't necessarily indicate that they were particularly good.

The Pennsy had hundreds upon hundreds of outdated but simple and paid for locomotives that lasted a long lime.  So did western roads like the Santa Fe, the NP and the CB&Q.  But the western roads weren't double heading their old steamers on the Chief or the North Coast Limited in 1940, they had Northerns.  

According to the Worley book, some of the later 1800s served into the mid '50s.  At least one of the 1000 series - number 1079 lasted to 1951 - there is a photo of it leaving Topeka with a freight consist in June '51.  By then they all had tenders converted to oil which is how I will be modeling mine.  They were good locos.  

From what I can recall off the top of my head, the Prairie types tended to be unstable at speed because the drive axle was near the center of the loco, causing it to 'yaw' from the piston thrusts. So they quickly fell from favor after about a decade of popularity, as already noted. I think this undesirable characteristic was also true of some 2-10-2 types.

The Prairie locos that lasted the longest were most likely saved for branch line service where a smaller, lighter loco was needed.

In my Lionel world I consider the Prairie locos as modified Pacific types, better suited for very sharp curves.

The prairies are just one of the locomotives ignored by the larger manufactures. Also the earlier pre-WWI boilers are overlooked in all configurations. I would purchase a WWI era 2-6-2, 2-8-0, or a 4-4-0 model if they were made. I will also toot my horn about making some oil burning locomotives instead of coal burning. These would be small command control locos that could easily run on 0-48 so us small layout types could use them as well as the larger layouts.  There are some good 2-6-0 type engines that have been manufactured, but the rest have been ignored.

  The period 1890-1917 saw some huge technological progress. The improvements in steel and steel alloy drove a lot of inovation in railroads and cars. Electricity came into widespread use during this period as well as improvements is fuels and lubricants.

Douglas

If memory serves, some or one of the ATSF Prairies were/was given late in their career(s) hand-me-down early Mallet turtle-back tenders, with the Pullman-style 6 wheel trucks. Those trucks were employed because the more modern Commonwealth trucks had yet to be developed at the time of the malleys' construction. Seem to recall that ATSF Prairies ended their careers in helper service in Oklahoma.

         The Burlington had an early series of 2-6-2's (R1-2-3's) that were quickly outmoded and were rebuilt into real odd-duck, ungainly, squat 0-6-0's. This was accomplished by removing the taller drivers and replacing them with 51"-ers, plus amputating engine and trailing trucks. These rebuilds were pretty long-lived, some lasting into the  '50's. In fact the last 0-6-0 on the Burlington roster was one of those engines (condemned in 1959). The 2-6-2's that remained intact were more modern R4's and R5's, some of which were rebuilt with modern cylinders in the '20's. All Prairies were gone from the Q by about 1954. The NP 2-6-2's lasted until the last full year of NP steam operation, as switch engines. Apparently their liabilites did not come into play at slow, switching speeds.

Here is my effort at converting the Lionchief Plus Hudson to a scale representation of the ATSF Prairie: Not a perfect model but its close and the project was a lot of fun.  When the paint is hardened I will weather and do the letters and numbers, and number it 1856 - there is a photo of that loco, with a six-wheel tender converted to oil fuel, on page 172 of Iron Horses of the Santa Fe Trail, in June 1952: since I model the early '50s on my layout it will be true to that time period. I used a photo on page 229 of the book, showing the detail of that tender type from above, to convert the tender.  

Lee very nice job. 

Lee,

More pictures from different angles, please.

Excellent work, Lee.

In case you've missed it, there have been at least two threads in the past couple years which encouraged the mfrs (esp. 3rd Rail) to consider a ATSF Prairie, either the 1050 class (affectionately 'Park Princesses', due to the several now residing quietly in towns along the ROW.), or (my choice!) the 1800 class.

Sure there are lots of Prairie types among the plethora or roads having them early in the 20th century, but the Fe's were typically iconic.  (OK, I'm prejudiced....I admit it.)

A well done scale 2-6-2 w/TMCC or DCS would be just the thing for our typically tight radius layouts, IMHO. 

We'll keep pushing the car up the hill with the rope.

KD

I'm in for a CB&Q R-5a and An AT&SF 188.

ChipR

I'm in for a Burlington R5, too! And an S3, S1a, O1a, M2a, K2, K4, T2, B1a; ok, most anything CB&Q!   

I agree that someone should produce a Prairie.  I'd like a couple of really good models of the 1050 and 1800 class, too.  They were wonderful locos - but this representative if not exactly prototypical model in ever detail, and one other I am making about like it, will have to do me until they do.  My conversions aren't perfect models but they are good enough until I get a Vision version!

It is finished in gloss now.  I will dull it near the end of the week when the paint hardens, and weather it, too.  

It is as scale as I could make it - the firebox is a bit too long and the wheelbase about 10 inches too long, too, but otherwise . . . .and so it "fits" now, whereas as a Lionchief Plus semi-scale it did not look good alongside scale locos: here is is with a Legacy Pacific (it was the Southern Crescent before repainting).  It looks like what it should: a slightly smaller loco.

Nice job on the conversion!  I'd really like to do that with a Milwaukee Road version of the Prairie type.  The "road" had nearly 200 of these engines.  they were ordered and delivered just before the 2-8-2's and the "road" realized that they should have ordered Mikes instead.  But they were used in regular service for many years, some actually lasting until the end of steam in the 1950's.  They had small, 63" drivers and were not very fast, most being used on "patrols"  (the Milwaukee's term for way freights)

The most difficult feature to replicate in doing a model of the Milwaukee was the huge cab that this class of engine had.  Really very large compared to other railroad's engines of similar size.  They also had an inside frame trailing truck with spoke wheels; typical of the "road".

I'm going to have to keep my imagination open to try to duplicate one of these engines because I'm sure, now, that no manufacturer will ever offer it.

Paul Fischer