BIGKID: THANK YOU for the enlightened clarification of your earlier comments.
FORMER OGR CEO - RETIRED posted:Tinplate Art posted:This will be THE steam event of this century, barring a reconstructed NYC Hudson!
Oh please...
The diesel behind it will be more interesting, and doing most of the work.
Just my opinion, but I would not go to see 4014, even if I lived 20 minutes away. Too much hype, drama, crazy people, and likely not enough REAL work from that locomotive, among other issues.
Granted, the New River trips behind NKP 765 may not ever be beat, but riding behind and watching her on Metra trips and even CVSRR is much better than the proposed 4014 stuff. The SP 4449 is another incredible locomotive, even though i have to fly thousands of miles.
Besides, I'd much rather put my money into the all-volunteer, fantastic groups like FWRHS and Friends of 4449.
LLKJR posted:Yeah, yeah yeah. Bring the Big Boy to Handley WV for a trip to Hinton WV and put 11500 tons of coal behind her and see how the BB performs, and put one in the back of the train also to make the test fair. The H8 is the ultimate in super power steam.
Larry
Based on drawbar pull curves published in Kratville's and Huddleston's books, the Big Boy outpulls the H8 up to 30 mph. If you believe the Davis equation for train resistance, the H8 isn't running up the 0.2% average grade between Handley and Hinton over 30 mph with 11,500 tons in tow. Using Davis, the balancing speed for the H8 pulling that load up 0.2% is about 23 mph. The Big Boy could manage 25 mph pulling the same load up that grade. One Big Boy, not two.
Scott Griggs
Louisville, KY
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I don't know what it is about the UP steam program that seems to generate lots of heat, foam and/or steam on this forum (pun sorta intended) - and I've been on this forum for several years (so I actually do have some idea "what it is"). What I don't get is why - especially among a group of folks who, for the most part are enthusiastic about steam engines - the resurrection of the 4014 isn't more generally appreciated as the ambitious project that it is. I don't think there is any question that the UP Big Boy is iconic (but only one of several steam icons - and maybe not your favorite). Just retrieving the 4014 out of the fairgrounds at Pomona was pretty amazing - laying the 'fast-track' across the parking lot by itself was fun to watch. And watch, a lot of people did. How many YouTube videos were made of that whole process, let alone the chase half way across the country deadheading 4014 to Cheyenne.
I think UP should be given credit for being willing to undertake this effort - they obviously didn't have to. As far as I can tell, they are now the only class 1 RR with any sort of steam program, as it appears that NS has backed away from theirs (do I have that right?). So kudos to them for the effort. As far as that "diesel" in the consist goes - it may be the 'same' diesel that has run behind the 844 or the 3965 -- I didn't care about it then and won't this time either.
I thought about this the other night when I watched the SpaceX folks stick the landings of the two side booster rockets and the first main stage from their Falcon Heavy launch - the first time they've done all three - landing them vertically on their tails, straight out of the old Disney space cartoons some of us used to watch. Pretty darn cool - even though I'm not a charter member of the Elon Musk fan club... Firing up and running a large steam locomotive after it sat for 53 years as a cold museum piece (three times longer than it was actually in service) should also be pretty darn cool.
RICH509: WELL STATED! I, too, am amazed at some of the acrimony and snarkiness posted here, when in fact this is a landmark event worthy of some of the hype derided by a few here. Whether or not the UP or the Big Boy is your favorite engine, their efforts at this huge task of restoration should be applauded for the visibility and public relations this project will generate for steam restorations across this great land. I say GO UP! and put on a heckuva show for all the world to see and enjoy! Furthermore, their dignified handling of the Bush 41 funeral train was appreciated by thousands regardless of political affiliation, including myself, a lifelong Democrat. Although I will not be in attendance at this auspicious event due to health issues, I will certainly be following the media coverage, and will be looking forward to several professionally produced videos of the Big Boy's inaugural trek on its home rails. BRAVO, UP!
Well said Rich and Art!!
richs09 posted:I don't know what it is about the UP steam program that seems to generate lots of heat, foam and/or steam on this forum (pun sorta intended) - and I've been on this forum for several years (so I actually do have some idea "what it is"). What I don't get is why - especially among a group of folks who, for the most part are enthusiastic about steam engines - the resurrection of the 4014 isn't more generally appreciated as the ambitious project that it is. I don't think there is any question that the UP Big Boy is iconic (but only one of several steam icons - and maybe not your favorite). Just retrieving the 4014 out of the fairgrounds at Pomona was pretty amazing - laying the 'fast-track' across the parking lot by itself was fun to watch. And watch, a lot of people did. How many YouTube videos were made of that whole process, let alone the chase half way across the country deadheading 4014 to Cheyenne.
I think UP should be given credit for being willing to undertake this effort - they obviously didn't have to. As far as I can tell, they are now the only class 1 RR with any sort of steam program, as it appears that NS has backed away from theirs (do I have that right?). So kudos to them for the effort. As far as that "diesel" in the consist goes - it may be the 'same' diesel that has run behind the 844 or the 3965 -- I didn't care about it then and won't this time either.
I thought about this the other night when I watched the SpaceX folks stick the landings of the two side booster rockets and the first main stage from their Falcon Heavy launch - the first time they've done all three - landing them vertically on their tails, straight out of the old Disney space cartoons some of us used to watch. Pretty darn cool - even though I'm not a charter member of the Elon Musk fan club... Firing up and running a large steam locomotive after it sat for 53 years as a cold museum piece (three times longer than it was actually in service) should also be pretty darn cool.
Bravo! I agree that this was a major feat, and like the Falcon heavy it is an achievement to be celebrated, the UP spent the time and money to do this,from what I have read the steam team threw themselves into this and someine told the corporate beancounters and finance guys and hedge funds to keep their soul-less selves away from this. Kind of like the Israeli moon lander that failed,they dared to try. This doesn't take away from any other steam projects,a steam engine saved and running is a delight, no matter what some say.
But the Falcon Heavy had a TEST FLIGHT before launching for a paying customer!
Now the 4014 is being placed on a special passenger train on one of the critical freight corridors in the country without knowing how the whole engine will handle.
IF there is a single major accident and/or at least one employee, passenger, or bystander killed or seriously injured, and if the NTSB determines a cause was a rush to get BB running, is one death or injury too many for me. Plus such an accident could shut down all steam operations PERIOD.
The frist word in the old Code of Rules is SAFETY.
I used to accept anything coming out is good and right. Not anymore. I now freely question everything.
DOMINIC: Your cynicism and skepticism may seem valid for you, and like you, I have also learned to question everything, especially ALL politicians, but at 76, I have also learned it is important to sometimes have a little FUN before the smiling mortician steps in! Seriously, do you not think a MAJOR railroad corporation, Union Pacific, with experienced and highly compensated attorneys very familiar with liability law, have already considered all the safety parameters of this venture? Nothing less would be folly. 4014 WILL run and amaze railfans worldwide! I lift my cup to the GREAT Union Pacific Railroad!
Hey Dom ! Lighten up, enjoy having another Steamer running. You have belly ached enough about this project.
I am as ecstatic about the Big Boy's debut as I am about the restoration of OUR own NC&StL #576 here in Music City, USA , Nashville, TN! The more steam running, the better!
I would think that this EARLY run of 4014 would include a diesel to really do the heavy lifting (Rich) and prevent total failure of the event (stalled train) just in case she pulls a hammy. Having the diesel along ameliorates the risk (Dominic) of a broken and stalled train, or one that has numerous steaming bugs.
I expect and understand 4014 will be there for show for now, allowed to loaf and will hopefully do some real work in the future, as 765 does so brilliantly. At least she'll be there all lubed up, shiny and breathing!
I agree the diesel(s) are necessary and practical for her first runs. Some of the BEST and most experienced steam people in the nation have been working on the 4014 project and they have been given the necessary resources to do an expert job. Of course, with a complex machine like a Big Boy, there will be some last minute tinkering and adjustments, not unusual to any recently restored steam locomotive. A few shakedown cruises are in order, and hopefully will be executed. The UP folks have a lot riding on the successful outcome of this venture, and I am personally confident in their ability to do so. Let the contrarians bray as they might, and there just might be a hint of jealousy in some of this negativity registered here!
Times^2 - I think you have it right - I'm sure that the diesel is there for more than risk management especially on the inaugural run to Ogden - but as I said in my earlier post, the last time I saw 844 in Oakland, CA, there was a diesel right behind the extra water tank (though I've seen pictures with the 844 flyin' without a diesel in sight). My thought is simply that whatever the diesel is doing there, it doesn't detract from the larger fact that 4014 is back on the rails - "lubed up, shiny and breathing", as you say. Unless something within UP corporate goes south (as it apparently did with NS??), its hard to imagine that this is gonna be a one and done event for 4014. UP has announced that they plan to double head 4014 and 844 going back from Ogden to Cheyenne -- that will be something to see.
I find it amusing every time I read the critical comments on this forum concerning the fact that Big Boy 4014 will probably have a diesel engine assisting in this May's scheduled Union Pacific event. Sure, I would rather see and take pictures of a big steamer without the help of a diesel! But this has been done this way for years with restored steam engines and is not uncommon. And how often do you see a single diesel engine operating on a mainline? Having two or more diesel engines operating together is done for many of the same reasons!
Here are a few pictures of some of our other favorite steam engines operating with a diesel assist or backup.
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Best comment I have ever read about the “The Most powerful locomotives”.
“The best thing about the UP, C&O and N&W super power steam is it gives us all something to chew on 'til we are dust w/o a definitive answer on who was best 
”
R. Hales posted:I find it amusing every time I read the critical comments on this forum concerning the fact that Big Boy 4014 will probably have a diesel engine assisting in this May's scheduled Union Pacific event. Sure, I would rather see and take pictures of a big steamer without the help of a diesel! But this has been done this way for years with restored steam engines and is not uncommon. And how often do you see a single diesel engine operating on a mainline? Having two or more diesel engines operating together is done for many of the same reasons!
Here are a few pictures of some of our other favorite steam engines operating with a diesel assist or backup.
Exactly! For the Horseshoe Curve trips on Memorial Day Weekend in 2013, the 765 even had two diesels assisting!
(Photo removed to comply with TOS.)
If a diesel is in the 4014 consist between Cheyenne and Ogden, I have a hard time believing it would be there for any reason other than dynamic braking. I would be surprised if the trailing load exceeds 1600 tons. That would be a sack of feathers for a 4000 on Track 3’s 0.82%, where they were rated for 6000 tons.
Scott Griggs
Louisville, KY
Dominic Mazoch posted:But the Falcon Heavy had a TEST FLIGHT before launching for a paying customer!
Now the 4014 is being placed on a special passenger train on one of the critical freight corridors in the country without knowing how the whole engine will handle.
IF there is a single major accident and/or at least one employee, passenger, or bystander killed or seriously injured, and if the NTSB determines a cause was a rush to get BB running, is one death or injury too many for me. Plus such an accident could shut down all steam operations PERIOD.
The frist word in the old Code of Rules is SAFETY.
I used to accept anything coming out is good and right. Not anymore. I now freely question everything.
A little less on the overly dramatic side would help here....
There will be a test run, even if it's back and forth in the yard. It won't be announced. May not even happen during daylight hours--if I was in charge, it would happen under the cover of darkness just to keep the inevitable railfan masses away. Either way, it will either be ready, or it will be delayed until it is ready, or it won't go at all. Fairly simple. They won't leave Cheyenne without the belief that everything is good to go.
On the subject of safety, there isn't much that can fail immediately that would cause a situation that can be attributed to "rushing the engine out". Either your FRA inspector signs off on it, or they don't....and you can forget any wild Hollywood scene of something like an air compressor going flying into the fields rolling down the track. Just isn't going to happen.
Give the crew some amount of credit. They know what they are doing.
Bob Hale - thanks for the pictures of the steam-diesel mix - demonstrating that its not unheard of to have a diesel in the consist (apparently not even sacrilegious...). You will note that in your second picture - the one of the 844 - that's not jes' any ol' diesel in the mix, but UP's 6936, the last surviving member of the 6600 hp DDA40x class - dubbed 'Centennials' because the first was delivered to UP just in time for the Golden Spike centenary in 1969.
In the picture of the 4449, that diesel was only for dynamic braking. That's why its ahead of the 4449 and not behind. The diesel didnt help pull anything.
Steve_611 posted:In the picture of the 4449, that diesel was only for dynamic braking. That's why its ahead of the 4449 and not behind.
So a diesel's dynamic braking ability doesn't work when it's behind a steam locomotive?
richs09 posted:Bob Hale - thanks for the pictures of the steam-diesel mix - demonstrating that its not unheard of to have a diesel in the consist (apparently not even sacrilegious...). You will note that in your second picture - the one of the 844 - that's not jes' any ol' diesel in the mix, but UP's 6936, the last surviving member of the 6600 hp DDA40x class - dubbed 'Centennials' because the first was delivered to UP just in time for the Golden Spike centenary in 1969.
The DDA40X is often used in conjunction with the 844, not simple for horsepower but also for dynamic braking. the DDA40X itself is considered a heritage unit.
@smd4 that is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that at the bottom of the hill the diesel was cut off and 4449 continued on her way by herself.
Ideally, and in a more perfect world, and without the HIGH liability insurance required for steam-powered excursions, and without railroad operating departments dealing with increased freight traffic loadings, all those wonderful and POWERFUL machines could handle the passenger trains behind them without a diesel, with the possible exception of steep grades where dynamic braking might be required. THIS is the reality of today's steam operations, and it is better than NO steam by a long shot!
Given that steam engines were running in an era with very different safety regulations and liability laws , that they may want to use a freight engine hauling passenger cars where a diesel can easily provide things like auxiliary power and the like (especially if it is an engine set up for passenger service), or simply to give the engine more of a safety margin than it would have alone, it makes sense. Doesn't change the fact the engine is leading the train to me, it just seems like a great way to be able to see the engine run at all, and that is the important point. Could a big boy pull a train without help? Sure, passenger or steam, it could, but the real question is does it make sense to do that, if you can do better with a helper diesel,why not?
As far as the negative reactions to the Big Boy project, from experience with other similar things, some of it likely is personal, not liking the people doing the project (not liking that the UP is doing it cause they don't like the UP, don't like the person heading it, don't like big companies doing something for PR, etc).
In other cases it can be jealousy of a sorts, where in this case a big company with large resources makes a big fanfare restoring a famous engine and get huge publicity for it, meanwhile a lot of volunteer groups across the country have been saving engines from the scrap heap and bringing them back to life, scrambling to raise money to do it, trying to find places to be able to run them (and often it is big railroads, like CSX and NS, basically pulling the rug out from groups wishing to use their rails to run excursions),otherwise breaking their humps doing it, out of love, and being overshadowed by this big event done for corporate PR, I can understand that. Call it the NY Yankee syndrome as well, where fans of other teams complain that it is no big deal to win as a Yankee, they buy championships, so no one should make a big deal when they win, that the real feat is winning with a small market team with a lot of clever personnel moves, team spirt, etc - some of which is true, some of which is based on sour grapes, given that the Yankees in the free market era have often had decades of horrible teams when they spent the most money). And as a disclaimer, this is not aimed at anyone who has posted on here, this is based on a lot of years observing similar things and applying it here.
BIGKID: Human nature being so flawed as it is will always be too complex to explain in a few paragraphs, but you, sir, have suggested some reasonable and plausibe rationales for some of the negativity directed at the UP Project. I have NO particular "axe" to grind, and perhaps have "no dog in this fight", but do appreciate the money, time and hard labor expended to restore and eventually run this iconic locomotive! I sincerely believe the high-profile publicity generated by this particular project will ultimately help ALL steam restoration efforts by making such endeavors more VISIBLE to the general public in a "How can I help?" sort of way!
We here in Nashville are trying to raise funds for our more humble, and relatively lightweight, 4-8-4 loco #576, yet many of the volunteers involved are supportive of the UP 4014 project. The public, at large, is not generally informed, nor do some really care, about steam loco restoration. The more publicity about such endeavors cannot hurt these causes!
Tinplate Art:
Obviously I can only speculate as to why there is such a negative reaction among some, to be honest some of them may not know why they feel the way they do, hence the complexity of emotions
.
The only axe to grind I have is being thrilled that another of these steel dragons is coming back to life, I admire the people doing this on all levels, and I can't see it as a zero sum game, that if for example the Big Boy gets restored or a group decides to build a T1 from scratch somehow this hurts other groups. The UP was a corporate effort, paid for by the UP, and it isn't like the money they spend on the Big Boy would have gone to other efforts. The T1 is a private non profit and they are like other non profits in looking for people to contribute, and I don't think donating to the T1 fund deprives anyone else, there isn't a fixed pool of X dollars available and 10k to this group takes 10k from others *shrug*. Now if someone had the same idea with a Hudson (non streamlined, thank you *grin*), I would donate, but that doesn't mean I don't donate to other efforts...same way that if I cheer on the Big Boy project, doesn't mean I don't appreciate or cheer on other efforts.
BIGKID: WELL STATED! ☺
There is nothing wrong with having enthusiasm for one's own pet project (having lived in PRR country including Philadelphia most of my life, and growing up around Loewy-designed GG1s, my personal favorite is the T1 resurrection); and there is certainly an appropriate time for constructive criticism. But on many topics, some seem too quick to sharpen their horns at another's expense, and to post without reading and considering their comments first. It does not diminish the T1 effort or any other restoration in progress to properly salute UP for this project, and to wish them every success; and to hope that the expectations our friends from the West, or wherever else Big Boy fans may be found, will be fully realized.
Before hitting that Post Reply button, all Forum members should consider what has been attributed to Henry James, something to the effect of: There are but four rules: be kind, be kind, be kind, be kind.
David
I'm keenly following events related to 4014's restoration and run(s). In addition to the OGR Real Trains forum, what other sites/forums would you recommend for information/pictures/videos regarding 4014 and other steam locomotives being restored and run.
Tinplate Art posted:Y6, YES; H8, NO! Of course, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
I am the opposite...I favor the aesthetics of the H8 over the Y6.
The H8 is just like a Berkshire that the NKP, C&O, Erie, PM, etc...uses, but there is just more locomotive with the H8.
Boy is this thread going off topic. Lets get back on topic per the OP's original post....
OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:Boy is this thread going off topic. Lets get back on topic per the OP's original post....
I'll take part blame for this...I promise to behave.
I am not going to see or ride. I'll be out of the country then, but, in any case, would not get into the highway cavalcade, nor would I pay $3,000 to ride. I wish success and enjoyment to those who are going,
I suspect many of us, for a variety of reasons, will not be able to attend this seminal event, but we will be there in spirit, so to speak. I will impatiently await all the inevitable fine videos that will be produced by the UP themselves and many others! Meanwhile, here in Nashville, TN, we have our own 576 project, and will focus on fundraising for it.
I don't this is any less nuts than people paying thousands for a concert ticket for their favorite band at some location for which the band might never come back. For exaple, how many people would pay three to five grand to see a live Led Zeppelin reunion (with Jason Bonham on drums)? A lot, I'd bet.
It's all relative.
If I lived in the Cheyenne area, I might have seriously given it some thought for the right to say I rode behind the first public trip behind a UP 4000 since the 50s. Like a good pal of mine always says, "Ride 'em while you can, because you never know when they'll drop the fires or tear up the track."
Yeah, the very idea of riding behind a Big Boy... Three or five grand doesn't sound quite so insane when faces with the reality of actually getting to do that (something nobody seriously thought would ever happen, just a few years ago).
Until the last two few posts, I did not realize just how much the fares were! OMG! I guess a cab ride would be five figures! Come to think of it, I have wasted more than $3000 on much more frivolous pursuits! If ya got it, flaunt it! LOL!
