can i use my tmcc and dcs explore on same track

Yes you can. I run Lionel TMCC engines with a Cab 1L and MTH PS2 & 3 engines with a DCS remote commander together all the time.

Just one note, technically, yes, you should be able to use both DCS and TMCC at the same time. However, I found that the DCS Explorer box might not have as strong a signal as a TIU channel, and so I personally first hand saw interference where I could not add a DCS engine and had signal problems when the Legacy base was connected to the track. Now was that specific DCS exploer damaged and had a weaker DCS output than normal? I don't know, but just be aware, if you cannot add engines and are generally having DCS signal problems, a test is unplug your TMCC/Legacy base to ensure that signal is not interfering.

Again, I will say they should work together and many folks do get it working. That said, I've also seen it not work together.

Some TMCC/Legacy locomotives require the addition of an RF choke to minimize their impact on the DCS track signal.  If you're using a box that already has a weaker signal than normal, these issues would likely be exacerbated.  Is Vernon says, it is also possible for the Legacy signal to interfere with the DCS track signal, we've had several extensive threads on that where @Adrian! detailed the specifics of the where and why of the interference.

@Madockawando posted:

An RF choke?? Oh boy what a fuss. I'm glad all I have to do is hook up one wire from my command base to my ZW-L and I am running my trains with no problems. Even though I have my first MTH engine on order (DULUTH WINNIPEG & PACIFIC RS-11 ) I am going to be content to run it conventionally. No RF chokes, no star pattern wires, no resistance light bulbs, whatever. I want to run trains, not conduct electrical engineering experiments that would make Tesla blush.

Shame as you have no idea what you are missing. BUT it is YOUR CHOICE so I do not need to be preached to!

@CurtisH posted:

Shame as you have no idea what you are missing. BUT it is YOUR CHOICE so I do not need to be preached to!

Okay.... well you sound like your having a lot of fun.

Yes a lot of fun. I am very happy that both Legacy and DCS can be run together. It means I can run anything. With this setup you can also run conventional with no problems. So in answer to the original question by the OP, Definitively you can.

In general running DCS and TMCC together on a small layout (smaller than 25ft) works out of the box, even if you don't impedance boost up the power supply and do all the balancing and everything in all of the posts on the forum here...

It's only when you get into large club layouts (>25ft) where more than 4 or 5 people are running both types of train (Legacy, DCS) at the same time that you need careful planning of the impedances each signal is seeing to make sure it covers the full layout with no bad spots, and take caution about loading capacitances, hook up inductance, and the balance of the DCS packet amplitude vs the legacy/tmcc carrier to make sure both have good discrimination at the train decoder.

@CurtisH posted:

Yes a lot of fun. I am very happy that both Legacy and DCS can be run together. It means I can run anything. With this setup you can also run conventional with no problems. So in answer to the original question by the OP, Definitively you can.

Well good for you!  It's true that I have never run DCS but everything I know about DCS has come from what I read here on OGR.  So, if I am skeptical of DCS, its because the overall DCS comments/posts here on OGR over the last couple of years have been less than ideal.  It seems like its more trouble than its worth... that is what I am reading.  I want simple and reliable. So, when my MTH DULUTH WINNIPEG & PACIFIC RS-11 arrives at the end of the year I want to put it on the track, power up, and move the ZW-L handle and not worry about trying to install a new system on top of my TMCC.  And I am sure it will be just fine.

@Vernon Barry posted:

Just one note, technically, yes, you should be able to use both DCS and TMCC at the same time. However, I found that the DCS Explorer box might not have as strong a signal as a TIU channel, and so I personally first hand saw interference where I could not add a DCS engine and had signal problems when the Legacy base was connected to the track. Now was that specific DCS exploer damaged and had a weaker DCS output than normal? I don't know, but just be aware, if you cannot add engines and are generally having DCS signal problems, a test is unplug your TMCC/Legacy base to ensure that signal is not interfering.

Again, I will say they should work together and many folks do get it working. That said, I've also seen it not work together.

I will second this comment. The DCS Explorer apparently doesn't have the same signal strength as a full DCS set-up. There were acceptable but noticeable deficiencies on my old layout in Baltimore (it was my entire basement 16x80).  The same Explorer and TMCC set-up work flawlessly together on my layout in NYC. Here in NYC, I am renting an apartment that's less square footage than my basement in Baltimore (and my rent is over twice my Bmore mortgage ), so the layout is a small table affair (8x12). So the size of the pike definitely matters.
To be clear: I didn't install any chokes on any locomotives or cars. I know I really should have done so on my passenger cars. Atlas O cars even came with a diagram on how to do it.

@Madockawando posted:

Well good for you!  It's true that I have never run DCS but everything I know about DCS has come from what I read here on OGR. 

Since you have no actual experience with DCS could you please stop mudding questions on the DCS/PS2/PS3 forum with "TMCC/Legacy is the greatest control system known to mankind" spiel? The OP asked a question you have no experience to answer, so the best bet is to let those of us who have experience with DCS help the OP out.

@Madockawando posted:

An RF choke?? Oh boy what a fuss. I'm glad all I have to do is hook up one wire from my command base to my ZW-L and I am running my trains with no problems. Even though I have my first MTH engine on order (DULUTH WINNIPEG & PACIFIC RS-11 ) I am going to be content to run it conventionally. No RF chokes, no star pattern wires, no resistance light bulbs, whatever. I want to run trains, not conduct electrical engineering experiments that would make Tesla blush.

Boy oh boy I get sick of the notion that DCS is so complicated.  I don't run star wiring, or light bulbs.  My DCS engines run flawlessly on my bus wired layout and our clubs modular layout that is also bus wired. (My layout is 18 x 30 and the club layout is bigger yet...)

Both of the systems have some limitations, that's just a reality. I know a gentlemen that for whatever reason on his large layout was never able to get TMCC/Legacy to work.  Had it not been for DCS he would have walked away from the hobby.  Even the Lionel folks told him that TMCC wasn't going to work on his layout because of its size and the nature of the track configuration.

Honestly it's your loss that you don't want to run DCS.  I too have the DW&P RS-11 on order from Pat, should be a nice engine!

Thank you to everyone who replied I will use my little silver DCs Explorer box and my TMCC cab one box and let you know how it works out for me thank you all for the replies it really helps

@Lou1985 posted:

Since you have no actual experience with DCS could you please stop mudding questions on the DCS/PS2/PS3 forum with "TMCC/Legacy is the greatest control system known to mankind" spiel? The OP asked a question you have no experience to answer, so the best bet is to let those of us who have experience with DCS help the OP out.

Ah Okay.  So far I have seen nothing in this thread to convince or encourage me or anyone else to spend time and $ to install DCS.  What I have seen is a lot of negativity and angst both of which make poor selling points.

@Madockawando posted:

Ah Okay.  So far I have seen nothing in this thread to convince or encourage me or anyone else to spend time and $ to install DCS.  What I have seen is a lot of negativity and angst both of which make poor selling points.

Maybe because YOU brought the negativity? The post asked a simple question. You neither answered it, or provided ANYTHING of value. The post's purpose wasn't to convince you to install DCS, the OP asked if the 2 systems would work together for him. They most likely will. If the OP has issues, he can come back here, and most of us will try and help him out. Ever hear the saying "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? Might be something to consider...

@Madockawando posted:

Ah Okay.  So far I have seen nothing in this thread to convince or encourage me or anyone else to spend time and $ to install DCS.  What I have seen is a lot of negativity and angst both of which make poor selling points.

Cool.

If you have a question about DCS, and if you should incorporate it into your layout, start your own thread instead of muddying up someone else's thread.

Edit: I have both TMCC and DCS on my layout. Everything works fine together with 0 issues. I even run my TMCC and Legacy locomotives from my DCS remote and never touch my Cab-1. I don't have a Legacy base or Cab-2. So, when someone askes a question specifically related to a Legacy base or Cab-2, here's what I do: I don't respond to the thread because I have no technical experience to offer the poster.

So far I haven’t had much problem running LEGACY and DCS together on my clubs new layout I need to get back by and watch some of Adrian’s videos he posted a while back I read everything but forgot to go back and watch the video.

Anyway back to the OP if you do have a weak signal I had made up a PCB that cleanly holds a 22uh choke since the layout at my club was going to use passive mode this setup so far has not let us down

@Madockawando posted:

Ah Okay.  So far I have seen nothing in this thread to convince or encourage me or anyone else to spend time and $ to install DCS.  What I have seen is a lot of negativity and angst both of which make poor selling points.

Speaking of selling points, facts, especially technical facts, make the best ones in our hobby. Unfortunately you've provided none, neither positive nor negative, just baseless emotional arguments.

If you've spotted any semblance of negativity or angst about DCS on this forum I suggest you provide specific links to it in your posts.  Otherwise all we have is hearsay.

Mike

Trolls

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Speaking of selling points, facts, especially technical facts, make the best ones in our hobby. Unfortunately you've provided none, neither positive nor negative, just baseless emotional arguments.

If you've spotted any semblance of negativity or angst about DCS on this forum I suggest you provide specific links to it in your posts.  Otherwise all we have is hearsay.

Mike

Hmm... All I am doing is providing an observation that there has been a number threads on the technical challenges of implementing DCS on OGR that last few years that it makes me hesitant to spend the time and money trying to get DCS installed on my layout.  For a while now I have hesitated on buying MTH locomotives because I really don't want the hassle of DCS. However, since MTH produces road names I like in their premier line I will start purchasing them but will run them conventionally.  I can use the CAB_1 remote to operate the ZW-L to give me the remote like experience with my future MTH locomotive purchases.

Some people have observations and some have comments. Some are hard to tell apart. Important thing is OP hopefully can see which are which and got his answer. My layout is 50'x30' and I can honestly say I have more trouble with Legacy than I do with DCS. What really sucks is when you have so much trouble that you end up running conventionally. Thankfully HELP not observations is what got me so I could run the troubles Legacy. Just seemed a waste that you have to run plane wires to straighten a system out that cost so much. Thank you OGR members for helping me thru my LIONEL FRUSTRATIONS!!!

This thread is getting a bit contested, but I would say this to give my limited perspective...

First at home, small layouts, both DCS and Lionel Legacy/TMCC work about the same. As long as your home has modern wiring for the legacy signal to couple through, you have a reasonable level of climate control (heating and AC), and you don't have a 900 MHz garage door opener, everything is probably fine either way.

In the large club environment the story is very different. DCS is absolutely amazing at having excellent control over multiple trains, the AIUs and stuff make accessory control very smooth. DCS is also really cool for having stuff like the trolleys and subway transit cars with the programmable stops, and it tends to propagate well around the layout provided you follow all the wisdom on here (chokes, proper I and V protection, good capacitive balance). Where DCS sometimes falls short is train to train effects. That is if someone in the other room drops a bunch of bulb-lit passenger cars onto the layout without telling you all the trains sort of suffer together in terms of control performance (sticky horns, slow to respond, hard to find engines). In our club the main issue with DCS is that we get can get imbalance with the legacy signal. That is when the legacy signal gets too strong in some places the DCS signal gets swamped out, so we had to build all that stuff to balance it out (detailed in the tour).

That said, Lionel is not foolproof either. Since it relies on capacitive coupling to the building, every locomotive is a little different. The quality of signal depends on what exact locomotive, how the antenna is constructed, and what cars the lionel locomotive is pulling. If you pull plastic cars the signal is weaker, and if you pull metal cars the signal is stronger (due to the increased capacitance train-to-building). Also most annoyingly the coupling mechanism through the air makes the Lionel signal very dependent on weather, especially humidity on a large layout, as demonstrated in the lionel weather experiment. I would call that a big strike too.

TMCC radiates from the whole layout to the building to propagate signals. DCS applies the signal from inside to outside rail superimposed on the power supply. In a small layout these are essentially orthogonal so there is no interference. As you go to large layouts the shunt capacitance from inner and outer rails starts to matter, and the signals start to couple to each other hurting the performance of both.

LionChief is really good because it's so simple, except in the large club the bluetooth goes out of range which required us to make our own boosted remotes.

None of these control systems are perfect and large layouts always lead to issues, but by applying some EE basics, you can overcome them, and you can indeed have all the systems working on the same large layout at the same time. It just requires a bit of learning (which is always a good thing)!

@Adrian! posted:

None of these control systems are perfect and large layouts always lead to issues, but by applying some EE basics, you can overcome them, and you can indeed have all the systems working on the same large layout at the same time. It just requires a bit of learning (which is always a good thing)!

Fortunately, on my small 12 x 24 layout, both DCS and TMCC/Legacy work just fine.  BT doesn't make it to the other end of the room, but that's no loss as I don't run anything that doesn't have TMCC/Legacy, DCS, or is simply conventional control.

@zhubl posted:

So far I haven’t had much problem running LEGACY and DCS together on my clubs new layout I need to get back by and watch some of Adrian’s videos he posted a while back I read everything but forgot to go back and watch the video.

Anyway back to the OP if you do have a weak signal I had made up a PCB that cleanly holds a 22uh choke since the layout at my club was going to use passive mode this setup so far has not let us down

I know it was meant well but the original topic is about the DCS Explorer which cannot be run in passive mode.

Again, this works great for a TIU, not so much for the DCS explorer.

At the end of the day, we are still at the same answer.

Yes, by all means attempt to run the DCS explorer and TMCC on the same track. It works for people, I've seen it work myself. (Specifically the DCS explorer and TMCC).

If, and we are hoping this isn't the case, you find that you have interference and engines cannot be added or addressed and general DCS signal issues when TMCC is connected, then disconnect the single wire of the TMCC or Legacy base and try DCS again. If that works and you can address engines, then you have the rare circumstance of interference.

Again, hoping it works, hoping a lot of this was all just a lot of talk about nothing.

If it doesn't work, hey, we have experts here that can provide solutions and tips, even folks who can repair a DCS explorer with weak signal.

@Vernon Barry posted:

I know it was meant well but the original topic is about the DCS Explorer which cannot be run in passive mode.

Again, this works great for a TIU, not so much for the DCS explorer.

my bad, I did not realize that wasn’t possible. I had no intention in confusing anyone.

thanks for the information on the explorer